Officers' Quarters: The guild achievement controversy

Less than 24 hours after Cataclysm went live, Blizzard announced a major change to the way guilds would level up in the brand-new system: Guild achievements no longer provide experience. The change came as a shock to many players. Typically, major shifts in design philosophy such as this occur during beta or even earlier. However, as Nethaera explained, the beta did not provide an accurate picture of guild experience from achievements because most characters were templates without their own achievement history.
It seems shortsighted that Blizzard did not anticipate a rush on guild achievements, particularly in the early days of the guild leveling system when there are so many juicy perks to unlock. Not to mention, achievements were the only way to get around the daily experience cap and powerlevel your guild. If anyone should know the lengths that players will go to in order to reap rewards, you'd think it would be Blizzard.
As it turns out, the game's developers somehow did not see this coming and, unfortunately, the timing of the announcement could not have been worse.
The announced change went into effect after many guilds had already gone on achievement sprees, some earning multiple guild levels and their associated perks. Earning these achievements was not often trivial -- a lot of planning and farming went into earning them. Last Friday's Around Azeroth was a great example. Blizzard then had to retroactively de-level those guilds and remove their perks. From a players' perspective, the only thing worse than being forced to wait for a reward is to earn that reward and then have it unceremoniously stripped away.
The right decision?
I think we can all agree that Blizzard could have handled this situation better. However, the more important question is this: Did the developers make the right decision?
The change effectively removes any chance of accelerating your guild's level. Most guilds will be able to hit the daily experience cap without much hassle. Very small guilds may not always make it. In a nutshell, that means most guilds will all level at the exact same pace. Any advantage that larger guilds might have been able to claim through sheer numbers has been erased.
Is that best for the health of the game? In one sense, you could say that it is. Clearly, larger guilds would have been able to earn certain achievements, such as most of the crafting achievements, far more quickly than smaller organizations. Guild size should be a matter of personal preference, not a throttle for rewards.
On the other hand, let's look at the long-term scenario. At some point and around the same time, every active guild that existed when Cataclysm launched will be max level. Those guilds will have a significant advantage when they go to recruit players over guilds that formed more recently. With achievement experience intact, those new guilds had a chance to catch up faster. Now, they will be have to be patient and live with the disadvantage, because leveling speed is more or less out of their hands.
Discouraging players from forming new guilds may cut down on drama to some degree. It's possible that fewer guilds will split or reform to become more exclusive. At the same time, though, this change may also discourage people from creating new guilds from scratch for the right reasons: because they want to try their hand at leadership, for example, or because they have a vision for a specific type of community.
Right now, I'd say it's too early to tell exactly what impact this change will have. Certainly there are both upsides as well as drawbacks. Much depends on how willing players are to join guilds that have not yet unlocked all the most desirable perks.
What it means
The meaning of guild achievements has changed in a significant way. Prior to this announcement, earning guild achievements was a way for your guild to work together toward a common goal that would benefit everyone in the guild community. Best of all, anyone could contribute. Going after achievements wasn't just an excellent team-building and morale-boosting exercise -- doing so allowed everyone in a guild, regardless of whether they were able to raid or PvP on a competitive level with the other members, to feel like a vital part of the organization. By gathering a handful of herbs or stomping on a gnome who wandered into Hillsbrad, you were making a difference.
Those aspects, by and large, have been lost. Now it feels like your guild will level with or without your contributions, because someone at some point during any given day will cap out the experience. Also, much of the sense of purpose to these achievements is gone. Be prepared for members to opt out of helping with specific achievements. Much like the player-based achievements with no actual rewards, some people just won't care.
Surely there has to be a compromise somewhere in this achievement system between teamwork being rewarded too well and teamwork barely being rewarded at all. We as officers know very well that players respond to goals, but goals are hard to push for when we're achieving them purely for their own sake, with no direct benefit to anyone. Since the goal of leveling faster has been taken away, I would like to see more tangible rewards, such as the Broiled Dragon Feast recipe and the Armadillo Pup, tied to specific achievements.
What's saddest of all to me is that leveling your guild is now a soloable grind. It takes more than one person to level efficiently, but it requires no teamwork whatsoever to accomplish. That was true prior to this change, but the fact that teamwork could level the guild faster was a fun and exciting concept to many officers and players. For that reason, the new system just feels wrong to me. What's your take on it?
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 2 of 7)
Sorithal Dec 14th 2010 1:08AM
Annoying part is it screws over smaller guilds now :| Before the guild I was in would max out the daily guild exp easily, and now it's much more difficult to even get a bar of exp -.-
Blizzard should just model the guild exp required or gained to be more/less with smaller/larger guilds. Right now they're basically forcing any smaller guilds wanting to compete to either mass recruit or play way more in the day, which is lame as hell. :|
Tinwhisker Dec 13th 2010 2:12PM
Blizzard keeps making their MMO smaller and into an essentially solo-able game.
Raid sizes are cut at every expansion, group quests essentially don't exist (there's only one significant on in all of Cataclysm), and now guild leveling has essentially become solo before it ever had a chance at being group oriented.
Ylei Dec 13th 2010 3:10PM
Raid sizes have not been cut at every expansion, its only happened once, when Burning Crusade came out. Wrath and Cataclysm kept the raid size as it is. Not to mention, even though guild achievements no longer count toward guild leveling, guilds still level and those levels give you nice perks, so people are still encouraged to join a guild instead of playing the game as a solo player all the time.
This past week I've been seeing a steady stream of people asking in trade chat for guilds they can join, all of the solo players are coming out of the woodwork trying to get into guilds now. Obviously the guild leveling system Blizz put in is working as intended, getting people to ditch a solo play style and get into guilds.
Daedalus Dec 13th 2010 3:11PM
Raid sizes are cut every expansion?
Really?
Did I miss something in Cataclysm, then? 'Cause I'm pretty sure we have the same 10 and 25 man raids as we did in Wrath.
Nitride Dec 13th 2010 3:49PM
Raiding has been normalized such that there is no benefits to doing a 25-man instead of a 10-man like there was in Wrath.
Actually, raid sizes have come way down from vanilla where a 40-man raid was it. Then it went down to 20 or 10, and finally with 25 and 10 being a different tier of difficulty and loot in Wrath. Now 25 and 10 man raids are identical in rewards, raid lockouts can be broken down from a 25 to two tens or mix-and-match with various bosses down.
Now what's the point of doing a 25 man? If you are having trouble getting 25 ppl to go on raid night, you might as well just do 10 mans twice (with a second set being alts or other players who can show up on the second run).
Cata is certainly more challenging with the need to CC, interrupts, and not relying on AoE to burn every mob down within seconds. However there is no benefit to doing a more challenging 25 man when you get exactly the same loot as the 10 man raid.
Akhi Dec 13th 2010 2:14PM
I couldn't agree more. Before this change, my guild had planned out different achievements to get to help the guild go forward as quickly as possible. This had the added benefit of forcing those of us who have been grinding like crazy since 12:01 on the 7th to take a break from heroics and run something mindless and easy.
Now I doubt we'll even make the effort to get that last warglaive we need.
venomslife Dec 13th 2010 2:17PM
i have to say, yes it is a good thing, and wholeheartedly disagree.
i respect your opinion however. and fully agree that is is unfair to smaller guilds.
with that said consider this-do smaller guilds really deserve the same gifts that a guild that has worked together potentially for years can receive?
in 6 months if things had stayed the way they launched every guild would be lvl 25 with a dark phoenix, AND IT WOULD MEAN NOTHING.
this all caps statement is most important not for its "loudness" but the clarity of its message.
achievements should be special, not trivial. a small guild will still earn reasonable rewards as well.
but consider the people that are most hurt by this -- guilds who are essentially casual 10 man guilds.
those guilds might be very hardcore-raiding 3 nights a week for 5 hours or something.
but not all of those 10 people can be online all the time.
in fact those 10 people are barely more then a slightly larger heroic group .
i dont mean to undermine 10 man groups but 10 people is much smaller and then a 25 person guild.
the people that accept the larger amounts of drama in a 25s guild and deal with it, and work through it, will be rewarded slightly (very very slightly) faster then small guilds.
wouldn't it be stupid if a guild of 10 people had the same perks 6 months from now that a guild running 2 25 crews has? would it at least be a little weird or Imbalanced?
my final point is something you didn't quite mention in your article-when those new peaks are attained, say guild level 10 or 25
wont it be incredibly meaningful for the people who are around then?
and why wouldn't it be a huge huge morale boost for a small group of friends on a server to have run a guild from 10 players for so long that they achieve an heirloom, or some guild page or some perk that i dont know about.
GREAT ARTICLE it really got me thinking about many things!
DC Dec 13th 2010 2:26PM
Just to correct a common misconception: The dark phoenix mount is not rewarded by guild level. It is rewarded by clearing the current tier of normal raids.
Akhi Dec 13th 2010 2:44PM
Almost all of the item guild rewards are from achievements instead of speed of levelling. With the (I believe) sole exceptions of the level 25 guild mount (which I think you have to be exalted to get?) and the next guild vault voucher, there is no difference in the speed at which small guilds could obtain them before, and what they can get now.
Examples: fish feasts (from fishing x number of fish), guild page (from killing x horde), the dark phoenix (raid achievements), the armadillo pet (killing 50k critters), etc.
I'm afraid that the guild lions/scorpions would've been a dime a dozen the day the guild rep cap can be hit, and will now be a dime a dozen the day guild level 25 can be hit, all across the servers.
conundrum Dec 13th 2010 3:18PM
Wouldn't it be stupid if a dedicated 10-man group that raided 3 nights a week on new content and took another night to work towards guild achievements got all the benefits? Wouldn't it be stupid if a hardworking 10-man guild got the same benefits as a casual 25? I can't think of anything more stupid in the entire game.
Sarcasm aside, I am no supporter of Blizzards making all content available to everyone. Everybody on my server seeming to have gotten the same Kingslayer title when the ICC buff went up to 30% that my hardworking 10-man guild had months before is a bit annoying for a half second, but it is a game and why shouldn't everyone get to enjoy it? It doesn't diminish the fun that I had getting there with the friends in my guild. It's a bit frustrating, but largely because of the attitude of entitlement that I feel among players, not because the opportunity is there for everyone.
I hate 25-mans. I hate the organizational nightmare that they have been in my guild, and I hate that they have nearly destroyed my guild 3 times. 10-mans are a good fit for us. We may get less gear, or lower tier gear, but it's worth it to raid the way we want to. But saying that all of our work together shouldn't be awarded as much because there aren't as many of us? That people dicking around in 25's should automatically get better perks like xp bonuses and new heirlooms for alts just because there are more of them? That is just stupid.
jhoover Dec 13th 2010 3:31PM
@venomslife - "with that said consider this-do smaller guilds really deserve the same gifts that a guild that has worked together potentially for years can receive?"
"achievements should be special, not trivial. a small guild will still earn reasonable rewards as well."
"wouldn't it be stupid if a guild of 10 people had the same perks 6 months from now that a guild running 2 25 crews has? would it at least be a little weird or Imbalanced?"
Exactly why is it you think that smaller guilds haven't worked together for years? Why is it the assumption is that just because someone belongs to a smaller guild they neither play as hard or as long as someone in a larger one? They could be just as dedicated to WoW, their guild and their toons as someone in a large guild, but not wanting to put up with being "lost in the crowd".
Size does not equal contribution nor dedication. Just because a large guild has the people to do the 10,000 feasts in one day does not mean it's any better (or worse) than a 15 man guild that takes a month to do it. In fact, a 15 man guild that completes that achieve is potentially working HARDER than that 200 man guild!
And, so that you know, I'm not disagreeing with the point that Blizz should have made this change a different way, but bashing them looking out for smaller guilds just because they are small, that's not right either. And if you think you aren't bashing them, look again at what I copied.
Firestyle Dec 13th 2010 3:34PM
Guild achievements already are meaningless. If they want to make is "casual" friendly, then by it's very nature it's easily obtainable (over enough time) and thus every guild will be level 25, everyone will have a dark phoenix, and it will be meaningless.
In 6-12 months, Ashes of A'lar will still be more coveted.
killer_tunes Dec 13th 2010 2:19PM
I felt it was a major letdown right in the middle of launch. Our guild made it up to Rank 3 in the first few days mainly because we had people playing at launch at 3am and some playing through the following day, myself included. We were really hammering it out and BLAM! it's all taken away. There is now no reason to help the guild from a non-raider standpoint...again.
Thanks for ruining one of the best parts of the expansion.
Akhi Dec 13th 2010 2:48PM
Again, fishing and cooking, etc will still benefit the guild from an item perspective (the new fish feast can only be obtained through fishing up 50k fish from pools). The only change here is that otherwise meaningless achievements that would've levelled the guild faster (low level dungeons in guild groups, old raid achievements, getting exalted with factions across the guild) are now, well...meaningless.
Wellsee Dec 13th 2010 2:19PM
Well, I don't see a problem having smallish guilds not be ridiculously outleveled by large guilds, but before such dire portents are assumed to be true ("oh noes, even the little guys will have the same perks as the big guys!"), let me offer my guild's experience from this week: We hit the cap each day and hit level 3 yesterday. However, despite having as many as 12 different players playing and leveling at the same time yesterday, we did *not* max out the daily XP. I know 12 to 15 active players isn't a large guild, but we aren't tiny either. I guess we won't hit level 25 on April 21st like everyone else after all.
I think the worst part of this system is that it will really discourage the formation of new guilds. I think they need to address that. Perhaps something along the lines of toons carrying some of their old guild xp to the new guild, with it slowly being unlocked as guild reputation rises.
Pyromelter Dec 13th 2010 3:05PM
Blizz blues have said things like "it's not a punishment to start a new guild, it just rewards guilds who stay together," and I tend to believe that.
The bigger problem IMO is when an individual wants to leave one guild - when he joins another, he's not going to want to join a non max level guild. In other words, starting a guild won't be a problem, but building up a guild without all the perks will really hinder recruitment for a newer guild.
Jen Dec 14th 2010 3:03AM
@Pyromelter: Actually, I'm pretty sure people will still join my raiding guild because we RAID, not because we're level 10. Joining a guild simply because they have perk X sounds like a horrible reason to me, and I wouldn't want a member who's only there to mooch off our previous work.
Summersetstud Dec 13th 2010 2:21PM
I understand blizz doesn't want us to just fly through content like this. But being stuck behind the exp caps with no way to differentiate yourself from other guilds makes the system rather dull and boring. My guilds the same lvl as every other guild... Where's the fun in that
Pyromelter Dec 13th 2010 2:21PM
I don't mind the guild experience throttling. What I DO mind is the outrageous cap on guild reputation. 3 months to exalted is the longest grind in the game that I can think of. I don't mind a bit of throttling on guild rep, but 3 months is just way way too long for people looking to get exalted with their guild.
Lyim Dec 13th 2010 2:43PM
This actually made the most sense to me. It's not hard to cap out rep in a week, and the people in your guild who are exalted have all been there at least three months. They've been through a bit of time with the guild, and that's how it should be.