Officers' Quarters: The guild achievement controversy

Less than 24 hours after Cataclysm went live, Blizzard announced a major change to the way guilds would level up in the brand-new system: Guild achievements no longer provide experience. The change came as a shock to many players. Typically, major shifts in design philosophy such as this occur during beta or even earlier. However, as Nethaera explained, the beta did not provide an accurate picture of guild experience from achievements because most characters were templates without their own achievement history.
It seems shortsighted that Blizzard did not anticipate a rush on guild achievements, particularly in the early days of the guild leveling system when there are so many juicy perks to unlock. Not to mention, achievements were the only way to get around the daily experience cap and powerlevel your guild. If anyone should know the lengths that players will go to in order to reap rewards, you'd think it would be Blizzard.
As it turns out, the game's developers somehow did not see this coming and, unfortunately, the timing of the announcement could not have been worse.
The announced change went into effect after many guilds had already gone on achievement sprees, some earning multiple guild levels and their associated perks. Earning these achievements was not often trivial -- a lot of planning and farming went into earning them. Last Friday's Around Azeroth was a great example. Blizzard then had to retroactively de-level those guilds and remove their perks. From a players' perspective, the only thing worse than being forced to wait for a reward is to earn that reward and then have it unceremoniously stripped away.
The right decision?
I think we can all agree that Blizzard could have handled this situation better. However, the more important question is this: Did the developers make the right decision?
The change effectively removes any chance of accelerating your guild's level. Most guilds will be able to hit the daily experience cap without much hassle. Very small guilds may not always make it. In a nutshell, that means most guilds will all level at the exact same pace. Any advantage that larger guilds might have been able to claim through sheer numbers has been erased.
Is that best for the health of the game? In one sense, you could say that it is. Clearly, larger guilds would have been able to earn certain achievements, such as most of the crafting achievements, far more quickly than smaller organizations. Guild size should be a matter of personal preference, not a throttle for rewards.
On the other hand, let's look at the long-term scenario. At some point and around the same time, every active guild that existed when Cataclysm launched will be max level. Those guilds will have a significant advantage when they go to recruit players over guilds that formed more recently. With achievement experience intact, those new guilds had a chance to catch up faster. Now, they will be have to be patient and live with the disadvantage, because leveling speed is more or less out of their hands.
Discouraging players from forming new guilds may cut down on drama to some degree. It's possible that fewer guilds will split or reform to become more exclusive. At the same time, though, this change may also discourage people from creating new guilds from scratch for the right reasons: because they want to try their hand at leadership, for example, or because they have a vision for a specific type of community.
Right now, I'd say it's too early to tell exactly what impact this change will have. Certainly there are both upsides as well as drawbacks. Much depends on how willing players are to join guilds that have not yet unlocked all the most desirable perks.
What it means
The meaning of guild achievements has changed in a significant way. Prior to this announcement, earning guild achievements was a way for your guild to work together toward a common goal that would benefit everyone in the guild community. Best of all, anyone could contribute. Going after achievements wasn't just an excellent team-building and morale-boosting exercise -- doing so allowed everyone in a guild, regardless of whether they were able to raid or PvP on a competitive level with the other members, to feel like a vital part of the organization. By gathering a handful of herbs or stomping on a gnome who wandered into Hillsbrad, you were making a difference.
Those aspects, by and large, have been lost. Now it feels like your guild will level with or without your contributions, because someone at some point during any given day will cap out the experience. Also, much of the sense of purpose to these achievements is gone. Be prepared for members to opt out of helping with specific achievements. Much like the player-based achievements with no actual rewards, some people just won't care.
Surely there has to be a compromise somewhere in this achievement system between teamwork being rewarded too well and teamwork barely being rewarded at all. We as officers know very well that players respond to goals, but goals are hard to push for when we're achieving them purely for their own sake, with no direct benefit to anyone. Since the goal of leveling faster has been taken away, I would like to see more tangible rewards, such as the Broiled Dragon Feast recipe and the Armadillo Pup, tied to specific achievements.
What's saddest of all to me is that leveling your guild is now a soloable grind. It takes more than one person to level efficiently, but it requires no teamwork whatsoever to accomplish. That was true prior to this change, but the fact that teamwork could level the guild faster was a fun and exciting concept to many officers and players. For that reason, the new system just feels wrong to me. What's your take on it?
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 3 of 7)
szilagyi Dec 13th 2010 2:46PM
They should never reduce that guild rep cap. What else will discourage people from joining a Level 25 guild, buying all the faction goodies, and then vanishing?
Pyromelter Dec 13th 2010 3:15PM
You guys didn't see that guild rep got nerfed too, eh?
Also, I think you are looking at it from a perspective someone who is leveling from 80-85. Once you stop leveling, unless you are doing all level cap dailies every day and every week, it's not likely you will be capping your rep for the week.
I think the slow rate of rep gain is enough of a bottleneck to prevent someone from grinding to exalted in 3 days. The guild XP nerf also hit that rep, so it will be much much more difficult to max out your rep every week.
Daedalus Dec 13th 2010 3:25PM
Have to disagree here.
If rep were faster, it would be far too easy for guilds that have all the perks to simply sell them. Pay me 5k gold, I'll invite you to my maxed-out, achievement-reward-laden guild, and in a couple weeks, you can buy all the rewards you want, then quit.
If Blizzard wanted the guild leveling system to in some way promote longevity in guilds and help keep them from imploding over stupid drama, then this is the way to do it; there should be enough of a disincentive to start over with a new guild to make players think twice about quitting in a huff.
Of course, the flip side of that is that it invests a lot of power in the guild leadership; it has yet to be seen how many people are victim of a guild officer abusing the ability to kick them out and erase months of rep grinding. How big a problem that will be will probably determine how the system shapes up, ultimately.
Saeadame Dec 13th 2010 4:03PM
I think having a weekly cap, rather than a daily cap, allows people who can't play very often the ability to get exalted with their guild in approximately the same amount of time that guy who plays 10 hours a day does. And I think that's okay. There are people who have different commitments, and maybe the guy who has a 9-5 job and can't play except for raids is in the same guild as that guy that plays 10 hours a day, and are equally dedicated players... the 9-5 job guy just makes things work in his limited time schedule.
Pyromelter Dec 13th 2010 4:28PM
Okay okay okay. You guys ARE aware that guild rep gain has been severely severely nerfed? I think you are seeing it as "oh i hit guild rep cap this week it should be cake to do that without a problem." It is most definitely not going to be easy to max out your rep every wek once you have leveled to 85 and don't have any more leveling quests to do.
I don't think you are quite getting the undertaking it will be for most people to get exalted with a guild. Also, remember, guilds will have this: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=83941
Let's say the per-week rep cap is removed. Currently, guild rep per level appropriate quest is i believe 12.5 rep. (This is down from 50). It's 48,000 rep from 0/3000 neutral to exalted. 48000/12.5 = 3840 quests.
You know what? If someone has a level capped guild, and someone wants to pay that guild for membership, grind almost 4000 quests, all the while generating an extra 10% gold from the gold they loot from mobs, I don't see a problem with that. I bet that people will be paying for entrance into level-capped guilds for other perks that you don't need rep for anyway. Call it an extra perk for the guild.
If anyone else responds to this, I would like you to address the situation as the current rep gain is, not how it was when you were getting 50 rep/quest, and also realizing you won't get easy rep from leveling quests once you hit level cap.
omedon666 Dec 13th 2010 4:45PM
Don't join a guild where you're measuring your membership time on entry. It's that simple, and an intended ethic of the system.
It's working fine. Don't join a guild with your eye on the back door. And Yes, I say this from the perspective of the super nerf'ed rep gain. TO THE GROUND I say!
Tahotai Dec 13th 2010 2:26PM
I don't see why guild achievements shouldn't mirror personal achievements. I definitely don't like people doing them just for the XP boost.
Tyeton Dec 13th 2010 2:22PM
As a member of a meta-guild, the achievements seem to have brought our members closer together. We spent most of the weekend doing guild achievement runs. We enjoyed each others company and just had fun. It didn't seem to matter to anyone re: the nerf in guild xp, we were mostly in it for bragging rights. We are now #1 on the realm in #6 world-wide for guild achievements. The perks are nice, but most of us just want everyone to see how awesome the guild is :D
(cutaia) Dec 13th 2010 2:37PM
"We are now #1 on the realm in #6 world-wide for guild achievements"
Ooh...I hadn't found a site tracking this stuff. Where are you getting this? :D
Daedalus Dec 13th 2010 3:33PM
Yeah; TBH, I kind of like the idea of keeping achievements "pure." If there's too much of an incentive to do them, that's just going to encourage players to game the system. As it stands now, it's a safe bet that when you see a guild with an achievement, it's going to be because it's something they decided to work on.
For instance, say I'm a hardcore PvP'er, and I'm looking for a guild. I find one with tons of PvP achievements, and think they'll be a good fit. I join, and I'm happy at first because we're doing tons of PvP. But once we get enough experience, the PvP stops; turns out most of the players really don't like it, and were just grinding away on it because of the tangential benefit. Now, I've wasted time gaining rep with a guild that really isn't into the same kind of play that I am.
By making achievements ends in themselves, and not means to an end, they become a great way to determine and advertise the character of a guild, and what its members like to do.
Tyeton Dec 13th 2010 3:46PM
@(cutaia) The info is at GuildOx. Here's a link:
http://www.guildox.com/go/g.asp?a=5&r=Proudmoore%2DUS
Tyeton Dec 13th 2010 3:49PM
@Daedalus - I agree with the PvP achie's. I'm trying to get people in my guild together do some but we don't have that many who like PvP. Their ok with the occassional WG, but getting them together for pre-mades or even arena's is difficult... especially on a PvE realm.
Ultranator Dec 13th 2010 4:14PM
And what guild are you in?
Tyeton Dec 13th 2010 4:28PM
@Ultranator I'm in La Familia De Stonewall
Jeremy Dec 13th 2010 2:23PM
I hate the change. It now feels like it doesn't matter which guild you're in in terms of the levels because everyone's going to get them at the same time. Obviously, the community of the guild is important, but now it doesn't feel like a group accomplishment to get to a new level. It just feels like, "OK, it's been X days from Cata release, it's time to hit level Y" (and who cares about the achievement to hit level 5, etc., now?). I was really looking forward to the guild system because it would mean that achievements actually mean something now, and as you said, the guild could work toward them together. I enjoy occasionally getting achievements on my main, but I don't care enough to try to work hard to get an incredibly time consuming guild achievement that doesn't give me a perk or xp. The only guild achievements I'll be working on are those that give me something, like the new fish feast recipe or a pet, etc.
Albain Dec 13th 2010 2:29PM
I'm also in a fairly small guild. We have seven or eight regular players, occasionally peaking as much as 11, but ordinarily there's five or six of us on, and half of that RPing. On a fairly subdued RP server, with a mostly-just-friends guild, last night was the first night we actually struggled, and struggled hard, to reach near-cap and push the guild to level 3. I've run out of quests, and I hate pugging .. and /this/ expansion I was hoping to avoid rampant altoholism.
It seems now I'm going to have to, or it's going to take weeks of exhaustive effort to even hope to get the 'nicer' rewards such as the gathering/crafting perks. I don't care about the mount; Hordeside it's a scorpion and I don't much like how the toon sits on it at all, but I want those gathering and crafting perks badly.
This change keeps it interesting for bigger guilds, preventing them from reaching cap too effortlessly, but I no longer think guilds about my size are going to be able to without a real tied-to-your-chair effort. Friends-and-family guilds, of which there are plenty, are going to be seriously hampered.
I don't see why people in big raid guilds or just huge social guilds 'deserve' things like heirlooms more than people in smaller guilds. Aren't these hardcore raiders focusing on one or two alts, not 10? Before all you needed was a certain amount of badges to get heirloomy goodness, now it's required you have a certain guild reputation (which will take weeks to grind up, looks like) AND a certain guild level. I won't argue that raiders should get easier access to raiding things, but heirlooms aren't, as an example.
There has to be a way to make it an even amount of effort for large or small guilds. Where it takes some work, but isn't impossible to do. Maybe a scaling exp/rep rate based on the number of guild members? Is that even possible?
jovialjake Dec 13th 2010 2:38PM
As a casual player, this new development has just about negated the reasons I had for playing WoW again. This just seems like another attempt to homogenize the gameplay experience.
TheBigFatMuffinMan Dec 13th 2010 2:33PM
There is a purpose to the achievements. Many of the guild items and heirlooms are only available after completing a certain achievement or milestone. Check the items on Wowhead. The Dark Phoenix requires the guild to get the level 25 achievement. The Shroud of Cooperation or what be it, requires another.
TheBigFatMuffinMan Dec 13th 2010 2:36PM
Ok, I found the link. Just scroll down the achievements to see what they unlock.
http://www.wowhead.com/achievements=3
Albain Dec 13th 2010 2:41PM
If you actually look ingame the dark phoenix is the reward for Glory of the Cataclysm Raider. Not reaching 25. 25 is the lion mount/scorpion mount.