Officers' Quarters: The guild achievement controversy

Less than 24 hours after Cataclysm went live, Blizzard announced a major change to the way guilds would level up in the brand-new system: Guild achievements no longer provide experience. The change came as a shock to many players. Typically, major shifts in design philosophy such as this occur during beta or even earlier. However, as Nethaera explained, the beta did not provide an accurate picture of guild experience from achievements because most characters were templates without their own achievement history.
It seems shortsighted that Blizzard did not anticipate a rush on guild achievements, particularly in the early days of the guild leveling system when there are so many juicy perks to unlock. Not to mention, achievements were the only way to get around the daily experience cap and powerlevel your guild. If anyone should know the lengths that players will go to in order to reap rewards, you'd think it would be Blizzard.
As it turns out, the game's developers somehow did not see this coming and, unfortunately, the timing of the announcement could not have been worse.
The announced change went into effect after many guilds had already gone on achievement sprees, some earning multiple guild levels and their associated perks. Earning these achievements was not often trivial -- a lot of planning and farming went into earning them. Last Friday's Around Azeroth was a great example. Blizzard then had to retroactively de-level those guilds and remove their perks. From a players' perspective, the only thing worse than being forced to wait for a reward is to earn that reward and then have it unceremoniously stripped away.
The right decision?
I think we can all agree that Blizzard could have handled this situation better. However, the more important question is this: Did the developers make the right decision?
The change effectively removes any chance of accelerating your guild's level. Most guilds will be able to hit the daily experience cap without much hassle. Very small guilds may not always make it. In a nutshell, that means most guilds will all level at the exact same pace. Any advantage that larger guilds might have been able to claim through sheer numbers has been erased.
Is that best for the health of the game? In one sense, you could say that it is. Clearly, larger guilds would have been able to earn certain achievements, such as most of the crafting achievements, far more quickly than smaller organizations. Guild size should be a matter of personal preference, not a throttle for rewards.
On the other hand, let's look at the long-term scenario. At some point and around the same time, every active guild that existed when Cataclysm launched will be max level. Those guilds will have a significant advantage when they go to recruit players over guilds that formed more recently. With achievement experience intact, those new guilds had a chance to catch up faster. Now, they will be have to be patient and live with the disadvantage, because leveling speed is more or less out of their hands.
Discouraging players from forming new guilds may cut down on drama to some degree. It's possible that fewer guilds will split or reform to become more exclusive. At the same time, though, this change may also discourage people from creating new guilds from scratch for the right reasons: because they want to try their hand at leadership, for example, or because they have a vision for a specific type of community.
Right now, I'd say it's too early to tell exactly what impact this change will have. Certainly there are both upsides as well as drawbacks. Much depends on how willing players are to join guilds that have not yet unlocked all the most desirable perks.
What it means
The meaning of guild achievements has changed in a significant way. Prior to this announcement, earning guild achievements was a way for your guild to work together toward a common goal that would benefit everyone in the guild community. Best of all, anyone could contribute. Going after achievements wasn't just an excellent team-building and morale-boosting exercise -- doing so allowed everyone in a guild, regardless of whether they were able to raid or PvP on a competitive level with the other members, to feel like a vital part of the organization. By gathering a handful of herbs or stomping on a gnome who wandered into Hillsbrad, you were making a difference.
Those aspects, by and large, have been lost. Now it feels like your guild will level with or without your contributions, because someone at some point during any given day will cap out the experience. Also, much of the sense of purpose to these achievements is gone. Be prepared for members to opt out of helping with specific achievements. Much like the player-based achievements with no actual rewards, some people just won't care.
Surely there has to be a compromise somewhere in this achievement system between teamwork being rewarded too well and teamwork barely being rewarded at all. We as officers know very well that players respond to goals, but goals are hard to push for when we're achieving them purely for their own sake, with no direct benefit to anyone. Since the goal of leveling faster has been taken away, I would like to see more tangible rewards, such as the Broiled Dragon Feast recipe and the Armadillo Pup, tied to specific achievements.
What's saddest of all to me is that leveling your guild is now a soloable grind. It takes more than one person to level efficiently, but it requires no teamwork whatsoever to accomplish. That was true prior to this change, but the fact that teamwork could level the guild faster was a fun and exciting concept to many officers and players. For that reason, the new system just feels wrong to me. What's your take on it?
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 5 of 7)
(cutaia) Dec 13th 2010 5:52PM
Well stated.
Chamual Dec 13th 2010 3:24PM
It's now basically gear expansion, but tied into perks rather than gear. As the expansion progresses guilds will better equiped to deal with the raids.
However, at the moment the current raid tier is still the hardest progress wise. Why they think we will want the perks such as raid-res and raid-portal at the end of the expansion but not now is beyond me.
The perks were a show of the skill and dedication of your guild, now they are mearly a show of how long you have been around.
furrama Dec 13th 2010 3:30PM
I like it, because my husband and I have two guilds, one hordeside and one alliance side that we level our mains and alts in. Though slowly, we can actually unlock these perks at a somewhat reasonable rate and we don't have the pressure to invite anyone else in just to get perks.
Dejavu Dec 13th 2010 3:47PM
In my opinion, the whole guild leveling experience just straight up wasn't implemented correctly. I think that turning in quests shouldn't be the primary form of leveling a guild, as it is a largely solo endeavor. Guild achievements and the like should be the primary way to level your guild. Make it so that clearing raids, getting rare mounts, clearing heroics, doing well in rated battlegrounds or arenas are the ways that your guild levels. This way you level your guild by *gasp* playing together as a guild. True, this means you'd need at least four people on at a time to do heroics or dungeons, but really, guilds who can't field four people to run a dungeon or even two players to arena can't expect to level cap their guild in any reasonable amount of time.
N-train Dec 13th 2010 5:24PM
This whole ordeal reminds me of another column Scott wrote about defending Guild Talents way back when. I agreed with Scott in that I would have liked to see some way to customize one's guild based on their accomplishments, but I didn't necessarily like the *guild talents* system.
I feel like I'm in the same boat here.
One the one hand, guild achievement exp would have doomed most smaller guilds, there's really no question. Both a 20 person guild and a 200 person guild can clear heroics or ICC, but a 200 person guild is going to clear 15,000 dailies or 10,000 fish feasts much faster than a 20 person guild.
Take the dailies example: if everyone in that 200 person guild did half of their 24 dailies each day (12), you'd have that achievement in about a week. Even if everyone in that 20 person guild did all 24 dailies everyday, it would take over a month.
On top of that, achivements requiring all the classes of each race and the like can't be completed by guilds that have less than 50 characters, and many larger guilds walked into Cata getting that exp purely for being large.
There's simply no way a small guild can compete, and you end up with people fleeing small guilds for bigger perks they have to work far less hard to get.
On the other hand, guild achievements (with tangible rewards) were something that all guilds could look forward to and work together for. You're right in that guild exp and rep is a very solo activity now, and I don't really feel like I'm contributing anything significant by going out and questing like I would be anyway. While I don't think that achievements giving exp were the right way to go, I will miss those group goals that the whole guild could work for. Sure, there are still plenty of achievements that grant items, but those are not that helpful and quite out of reach for a small guild like mine, so they might as well not exist.
I'm hopeful looking forward though, I think Blizz recognizes the intent of the guild exp system and hopefully we will see some sort of compromise within the next month or so.
kw Dec 13th 2010 3:52PM
At first I was a little upset by this, the same way I'd been a little upset at the whole guild leveling system in general, because I am in a very small guild of RL friends and relatives and therefore won't see very many of these perks. It kind of felt like a betrayal, since Blizzard has always before made it a point to cater as much as possible to solo and small group players. I might not make world firsts or top 5% of arena but I can get gear and see endgame raids if I want to.. there's never really been anything truly out of my reach in this game before. Now, there's almost no way I'll ever see my guild past level 8-10 (at least, not without a massive shift in the way I play WoW), so I miss out on a ton of perks.
But, something (cutaia) said in one of these similarly themed posts last week stuck with me. What is it about these small guilds that made people want to be in them through vanilla, BC, and Wrath, when there were no guild perks, when being in a small guild was just as "inconvenient" as it is now? Clearly there's something about being in a tiny, no-drama guild with RL friends that is worth the drawbacks. Sure, we have trouble fielding enough folks to do a heroic at times, but I get to play with people I know and I do have a chance to see some of these perks a month or two (or six) down the line.
What I think will eventually happen is, a year from now guild leveling will be made much easier in some way so that us tiny guilds can catch up (by then, the big guilds and hardcore guilds will already be level 25 so it won't matter anyway). Similar to how casual players can get old-news raid gear months after the fact, casual guilds will get the perks long after most players paid attention :)
Scooter Dec 13th 2010 3:53PM
I think this is just a big blunder and some form of guild exp be achievement will be added in the coming weeks. I mean there are lots of things that can be done for this.
1. Have the extra xp gained spill over into the next days cap.
2. Reduce the xp gained based on guild size and participation
3. Reduce the next days XP cap based on guild presence from the previous day, but also make no restrictions on the number of people who can contribute.
4. Reduce the overall XP gained per achievement.
See lots of methods! Everyone just cool your jets for a week or two, enjoy the game and then go buck while when Blizzard implements a fix.
Scooter Dec 13th 2010 3:53PM
I think this is just a big blunder and some form of guild exp be achievement will be added in the coming weeks. I mean there are lots of things that can be done for this.
1. Have the extra xp gained spill over into the next days cap.
2. Reduce the xp gained based on guild size and participation
3. Reduce the next days XP cap based on guild presence from the previous day, but also make no restrictions on the number of people who can contribute.
4. Reduce the overall XP gained per achievement.
See lots of methods! Everyone just cool your jets for a week or two, enjoy the game and then go buck while when Blizzard implements a fix.
Rob Dec 13th 2010 3:54PM
What bothers me is that the guild system is all designed around level 80-85. All the raid achivs, etc. but most particularly is the miniscule contribution of low level alts. I'm 35, have run dozens of dungeons. My guild rep? It's something like 500/3000 neutral. My professions are both 200ish. Does that matter? Nope not really. How much have i contributed to the guild, despite being online and playing every day, pretty much nothing. Of course since you level so quickly there isn't a chance in heck you can get 4 people of the same or simlar level together in the same guild to do 'guild run' dungeons. Yeah, like many other things this expac (hello archiology), this is just not very useful or interesting to me. I guess things will chance once we start raiding.
Tyeton Dec 13th 2010 4:28PM
I've seen several comments that hint at people guild hopping to get guild perks from GA's. Don't forget, when you join a new guild, you have to build guild rep all over. I had to move a toon from one of our sub-guilds to another and got a message telling me my guild rep went from over 2700 to 0 when I joined the new guild. Luckily I wasn't friendly with the first guild and didn't take long to work back up. I can't imagine anyone getting rep high enough in their guild to get the perks, then gquit to move to another guild because that guild is a higher guild level than their current one. I personally wouldn't.
...just my .02 copper
Lampy Dec 13th 2010 4:00PM
I think the problem lies with the "one size fits all" approach that Blizz has taken in creating the guild leveling system. They've basically decided that every type of player in every type of guild should be able to earn xp; pvp and pve, casual and hardcore, big a small. Of course we're going to end up with a system where anything and everything you do earns xp. When you don't have to go out of your way to earn something, it become meaningless. Furthermore in order to level the playing field for smaller guilds, the xp cap has been set so low that people in bigger guilds log on at 9am to find their daily experience capped. Teaming up to earn xp has thus been made meaningless. It's not just what you have to do (or not do) to level up you're guild that's a problem-- the rewards are disjointed too. Blizz didn't just have to accommodate every type of guild and player in the guild leveling process, but they had to make sure that no guild had significant advantages over another in any area through the rewards system as well. PvE guilds get the same PvP perks as PvP guilds, the same vanity items as RP guilds, and the same leveling bonuses as social leveling guilds.
I think it's impossible to have the guild leveling system be anything more than an easy grind which designers have had to make long so that people don't get everything right away. If we really want to make the guild system into what it has the potential to be, we need to stop saying things like "well I play this way, why don't I deserve every perk in the game too?" Rewards are special because you have to deliberately work towards them, not do whatever you want and get your pick of them. Rewards should be tied to achievements-- not experience, and there should be achievements for every type of guild with appropriate rewards. PvE achievements should unlock PvE rewards such as Mass Resurrection and the flask cauldron. Guilds that aren't PvE oriented wouldn't get them and wouldn't use them much anyway. There is no "5% more damage in raids" buff; most of the rewards are conveniences and vanity items. Sorry to that one PvP guy in your PvE guild that will never get his PvP perks, but accommodating everyone in every type of situation is ruining the system. If you're not working with your guild team to earn PvP rewards because no one else likes to PvP, you just don't get them. Quest contributions could be tied to heirlooms so that people who actually like to quest and level alts get them faster etc. Makes a lot more sense than putting them generically towards the end of the leveling tree or tying them to a raid achievement.
It's a little harder to fix the individual rep issues. For instance, I'm in a raiding guild, but I maxed out my weekly rep before I ever got a chance to run a dungeon with my guildies. That just seems wrong to me. I didn't do anything as a team or to help the team, and yet they like me more? A guild is a group of people working together, and you should not be able to earn all your group rep and xp by soloing. You should earn rep by doing things with your guild, contributing to the guild bank, things that actually involve, you know, the guild. Independent players will continue to play the way they like despite not having teamwork perks.
Rollo Dec 13th 2010 9:39PM
Well said.
Minstrel Dec 13th 2010 4:04PM
I don't think the concern about guilds who start their existence down the line is necessarily valid. Blizzard could always remove the caps on leveling a guild down the line. It could be a throttle at the start of the system to prevent huge guilds from having a massive edge, with the throttle eased or removed 6 months or a year from now, allowing newer guilds to catch up if they put effort into it.
Grinne Dec 13th 2010 4:33PM
I was really looking forward to the achievements, mostly because i have OCD when it comes to them. But now that their worthless, no one wants to do it unless it gives a decent reward.
Hemmels Dec 13th 2010 7:53PM
I support the "average number of achievements earnt during their time in the guild"; not stopping small elite guilds from earning high lvl achieves, or large-number purely-for-social-chat guilds who earn many, smaller achieves.
Think it though...
venomslife Dec 13th 2010 4:56PM
well i knew i would get some haters about this small guilds dont deserve the same rewards thing..
i meant that small guilds shouldn't get the same reward as fast as a big guild.
a small town like the one i grew up in didn't have a super wal-mart till i had lived in that town for 15 years. THEY ARE SMALL.
think about hot springs a much larger town near me that got a super wal-mart 5 years before us.
in no way did i mean to undermine players in smaller guilds. i am a former leader of a tight knit guild of 15 people.
but sadly unlike sex, size matters.
Chris Dec 13th 2010 4:26PM
Talk about a QQ article. I thought you were better than this WoW Insider.
Yes these are good points raised, but leave the QQ in the Blizzard forums. We're supposed to get insightful, informational, and entertaining articles here.
Tyeton Dec 13th 2010 4:43PM
"A guild is a group of people working together, and you should not be able to earn all your group rep and xp by soloing. You should earn rep by doing things with your guild, contributing to the guild bank, things that actually involve, you know, the guild."
I totally agree with this. These are guild achievements and guild rep. You SHOULD have to be doing things with other guildies to gain either. I can build my rep with other factions on my own, but I should have to work with my guildmates to get guild rep/achie's.
ScytheNoire Dec 13th 2010 4:35PM
Blizzard has to work on the guild stuff. Right now, it's a disappointment.
Velror Dec 13th 2010 4:39PM
Very, very disappointing and upsetting. A guild on my server was number 1 in the world on list of guild achievements completed. It was nice to see people on our server finally get something as great as this, sutff like that normally doesnt happen here. It almost feels as if Blizzard is out for our server. :/