Officers' Quarters: The guild achievement controversy

Less than 24 hours after Cataclysm went live, Blizzard announced a major change to the way guilds would level up in the brand-new system: Guild achievements no longer provide experience. The change came as a shock to many players. Typically, major shifts in design philosophy such as this occur during beta or even earlier. However, as Nethaera explained, the beta did not provide an accurate picture of guild experience from achievements because most characters were templates without their own achievement history.
It seems shortsighted that Blizzard did not anticipate a rush on guild achievements, particularly in the early days of the guild leveling system when there are so many juicy perks to unlock. Not to mention, achievements were the only way to get around the daily experience cap and powerlevel your guild. If anyone should know the lengths that players will go to in order to reap rewards, you'd think it would be Blizzard.
As it turns out, the game's developers somehow did not see this coming and, unfortunately, the timing of the announcement could not have been worse.
The announced change went into effect after many guilds had already gone on achievement sprees, some earning multiple guild levels and their associated perks. Earning these achievements was not often trivial -- a lot of planning and farming went into earning them. Last Friday's Around Azeroth was a great example. Blizzard then had to retroactively de-level those guilds and remove their perks. From a players' perspective, the only thing worse than being forced to wait for a reward is to earn that reward and then have it unceremoniously stripped away.
The right decision?
I think we can all agree that Blizzard could have handled this situation better. However, the more important question is this: Did the developers make the right decision?
The change effectively removes any chance of accelerating your guild's level. Most guilds will be able to hit the daily experience cap without much hassle. Very small guilds may not always make it. In a nutshell, that means most guilds will all level at the exact same pace. Any advantage that larger guilds might have been able to claim through sheer numbers has been erased.
Is that best for the health of the game? In one sense, you could say that it is. Clearly, larger guilds would have been able to earn certain achievements, such as most of the crafting achievements, far more quickly than smaller organizations. Guild size should be a matter of personal preference, not a throttle for rewards.
On the other hand, let's look at the long-term scenario. At some point and around the same time, every active guild that existed when Cataclysm launched will be max level. Those guilds will have a significant advantage when they go to recruit players over guilds that formed more recently. With achievement experience intact, those new guilds had a chance to catch up faster. Now, they will be have to be patient and live with the disadvantage, because leveling speed is more or less out of their hands.
Discouraging players from forming new guilds may cut down on drama to some degree. It's possible that fewer guilds will split or reform to become more exclusive. At the same time, though, this change may also discourage people from creating new guilds from scratch for the right reasons: because they want to try their hand at leadership, for example, or because they have a vision for a specific type of community.
Right now, I'd say it's too early to tell exactly what impact this change will have. Certainly there are both upsides as well as drawbacks. Much depends on how willing players are to join guilds that have not yet unlocked all the most desirable perks.
What it means
The meaning of guild achievements has changed in a significant way. Prior to this announcement, earning guild achievements was a way for your guild to work together toward a common goal that would benefit everyone in the guild community. Best of all, anyone could contribute. Going after achievements wasn't just an excellent team-building and morale-boosting exercise -- doing so allowed everyone in a guild, regardless of whether they were able to raid or PvP on a competitive level with the other members, to feel like a vital part of the organization. By gathering a handful of herbs or stomping on a gnome who wandered into Hillsbrad, you were making a difference.
Those aspects, by and large, have been lost. Now it feels like your guild will level with or without your contributions, because someone at some point during any given day will cap out the experience. Also, much of the sense of purpose to these achievements is gone. Be prepared for members to opt out of helping with specific achievements. Much like the player-based achievements with no actual rewards, some people just won't care.
Surely there has to be a compromise somewhere in this achievement system between teamwork being rewarded too well and teamwork barely being rewarded at all. We as officers know very well that players respond to goals, but goals are hard to push for when we're achieving them purely for their own sake, with no direct benefit to anyone. Since the goal of leveling faster has been taken away, I would like to see more tangible rewards, such as the Broiled Dragon Feast recipe and the Armadillo Pup, tied to specific achievements.
What's saddest of all to me is that leveling your guild is now a soloable grind. It takes more than one person to level efficiently, but it requires no teamwork whatsoever to accomplish. That was true prior to this change, but the fact that teamwork could level the guild faster was a fun and exciting concept to many officers and players. For that reason, the new system just feels wrong to me. What's your take on it?
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 7 of 7)
QQinsider Dec 14th 2010 12:30AM
What, you mean they launched with a half thought through, untested idea? Whoulda thunk it? Add it to list of all the other other rushed, untested implementations in this expansion. Mining. Herbing. Disenchanting. In fact, pretty much every profession.
This launch has felt as rushed and untested as patch 4.0.1 did.
But never mind, it'll all be balanced at L85. Oh wait...
imsocold Dec 14th 2010 12:49AM
I *was* extremely enthused about all the guild leveling stuff before Cata launched... =(
Also, someone said at least 137 days to level 25 (and that was before the XP reduction)... Seriously? How the eff did Blizz think a 5-month gate would make guild leveling more enjoyable?
Cambro Dec 14th 2010 1:11AM
This article perfectly captures the concerns and feelings of myself and a number of guild mates. Our guild is a bit over 100 characters, probably about 70 unique people. We had come up with a great plan to work on guild achievements, through profession grinding, rated BGs, instances, etc, and it was a huge let-down to have our plans shot completely to pieces. At this time, we're not having any problems hitting the experience cap, but as was pointed out, there's not really incentive for people to do things together other than for the camaraderies that (fortunately) many members already enjoy.
I really do feel that not only was Blizzard's decision bad, its implementation was a slap in the face, a knee-jerk reaction. They could have taken more time and come to a solution that would get results closer to what they were looking for while at the same time, allowing guilds that were prepared to take full advantage of guild experience for guild achievements, to do so.
Motosin Dec 14th 2010 3:04AM
My issue with this whole thing is simple... WHO CARES if large or medium size guilds level up faster?
Why is there a cap at all? Does Blizzard think smaller guilds will up and quit if they see the large organized guilds leveling up much quicker than them? Do they think large guilds will get bored once they reach max level and cancel their subscriptions? Do they think leveling your guild faster gives you THAT much more of an advantage? Or do they think smaller guilds will be a thing of the past without a cap? We'll all get there eventually.
It's just like raiding. The large organized guilds will plow through any content thrown at them, and smaller casual guilds will get to it when they get to it. We're all still having fun no matter what speed we go.
If players enjoy getting to that content quickly, getting all that comes with being in a large organized guild, then they'll join one. If they don't mind just playing casually with friends, they'll do that. I would think it's an extremely small percentage of players that would actually be upset that the guild who killed that raid boss 2 days after the dungeon was released also leveled their guild 24 times faster. It's just how life works.....
(But when it comes down to it... honestly, I think Blizzard is the KING of making time-sinks in order to make us continue to play.... hell, it's worked on me for 6 years. This is probably the true reason they did it... just one more time-sink to keep us in front of the computer paying our 15 a month for a long time to come. but eh, I might be wrong on that....)
Jen Dec 14th 2010 3:25AM
Judging by all the QQ on the forums and here, yes, some people do think their guild will implode because Super Pro Guild on their realm will get to level 25 faster... I've been trying to understand that mentality and I just can't. If someone left your guild *just* because other people had perk #15... did you really want that person in your guild in the first place? I'd say good riddance to bad trash, personally.
Uriah Dec 14th 2010 3:07AM
As a completionist, these achievements will still be done but the XP would have been helpful for others to have reason to join in.
Rumik Dec 14th 2010 5:35AM
Agreed - really disappointed about this change. I started my own guild and was looking forward to leveling it up as the guild made its way through the content. Why the hell didn't Bliz just reduce the amount of guild xp gained from achievements?
I really hope they reactivate this feature.
Sally Bowls Dec 14th 2010 6:05AM
The problem was the name. "achievements" are supposed to be worthless and guild achievements were not.
Bliz could have kept the old system in place but called them guild cooperative tasks or something like that. "achievements" would remain vanity only but there would be some small benefit to working together. E.g. we are having fun killing critters since it provides a pet.
BTW, the XP nerf means that in a few months it will be that much longer for a new guild to catch up to the existing rank 25 guilds.
I do not think Blizzard thought this out. It vacillates betwen where your efforts matter to where the cap essentially makes guild progress driven by calendar time not effort.
Frejan Dec 14th 2010 1:00PM
I think, right now, it's the right decision. Letting a guild snowplough their way to the bestest stuff just because they've got the people to do it is hardly fair, and would basically force people to leave their guild for larger guilds if they wanted to partake of the rewards.
Down the line I think they're going to have to remove the daily guild XP cap however, in order to keep new guilds from being unable to catch up to older guilds in a respectable amount of time.
Eris Dec 15th 2010 4:25AM
I couldn't agree more with Lampy & Tyeton: guild reputation should be something that is earned only in guild group!
Why do you win guild's rep by killing 10 camels for a quest in solo but you don't have any if you work hard with 20 other guildies to win some guild achievement ??? This doesn't make any sense !
Another problem i can see is that people already did lots of quests. So thoose who don't like pvp and raid (or that are in too small guild for that) can't use the guild achievement to build their rep. Of course now that they are level 85 they can still do low-level ones or daily but Blizzard's decision removed one option. And removing options in a open-game is always a bad thing.
kelindre Dec 15th 2010 9:46AM
This really chaps my ass. This is going to break small guilds. I had to remove one of my toons from a small guild this morning because it is leveling so slow. That was before reading or having any knowledge of this happening. I've got 2 toons in a larger guild and they are growing in levels like gang busters. I'm going to insert my now guildless toon into the larger one for the perks. The original guild all my toons had been in at one time is a small, friendly one that people just love to hang out and chat or work on something together. They aren't heavy players. The guild was basically already screwed from day one of Cata with the new guild reward system. What Blizz needs to look at and somehow set the exp gained proportionately with the number of ACCOUNTS belonging to the guild. That way small guilds can earn at the same rate as a very large guild.
Browser Dec 17th 2010 10:43AM
I just want to point out that the "Guilds who work hard will get it. Just be patient" thing isn't really hitting the issue on the head here.
A guild of people dedicated to each other should be rewarded by a game mechanic that is advertised to increase guild dedication. The way Blizzard has changed this has resulted in the opposite effect.
Guild masters smart enough to know realize that quests, and bosses killed gets them exp. It doesn't matter if all the guild members do it together or if they never even see each other online. This encourages inviting a huge number of people you could care less about because you can hit your cap before you butter your toast for breakfast.
Guilds, of all sizes, lose to this philosophical blindness of Blizzard's. Mostly the achievements revolve around redoing old content, which gives no experience or interest, or they revolve around grinding. It's as if Blizzard has equated grinding to the ultimate online experience.
If guild advancement has any hope to meeting its advertised goal then they have to get back to the basics. There has to be something in there to encourage people to work as a team. Grinding critters, quests and bosses doesn't do it. One hundred random people with a common guild-chat channel can grind critters and quests by themselves (especially since quests don't require any teamwork anymore). And the Dungeon Finder grinders looking for gear points just fill out the boss grind.
Experience for Guild Achievements needs to come back. And Blizzard needs to step up and ask guilds to do things that require guild-like coordination.
pelargonia Dec 17th 2010 2:56PM
I am very disappointed in this whole fiasco and hope that the lack of response from Blizzard means they are at least discussing it among themselves and maybe trying to come up with a solution. The main issues I see are:
• Guild Cap on XP
• Reduced guild XP from Questing
• Loss of XP from Guild Achievements
I do not like the cap on guild XP, it sets a bad precedent, opening up the possibility of XP caps for individuals. It also decreases the value of the contributions by members that work after the cap has been hit. I can live with a cap if it is absolutely necessary but it should not be hit within a couple of hours by all guilds on the server. It reduces guild leveling to a timed thing where all guilds or at least all large and/or active guilds will reach 25 at the same time. Might as well just automatically level guilds based on how long they have existed.
I can understand the need to tweak XP gains if guilds were gaining XP too fast but to cut it all from questing, as they did, and to do it so drastically hurts the smaller guilds way too much. Many of them gain most of their XP from questing, especially with the current lack of XP from guild achievements. If XP gains ned to be tweaked they should be tweaked across the board rather than have one type singled out. By singling out one type of XP gain you are for sure going to hurt one type of WoW player and their guilds. There are many ways to play WoW and all should be able to feel they are able to contribute to their guild in their own way. I do not believe that tiny or inactive guilds should level at the same rate as large or active guilds but they should be able to feel they can make progress other than just doing heroics and raiding. Guild XP should not come solely from questing but it should not be overbalanced toward heroics and raiding either. People were excited that everything they did, from questing and leveling to professions and raiding would contribute to guild leveling.
The loss of XP gains from doing guild achievements is in my opinion the worst decision of all. Guild achievements should not only reward guild XP but if there is a guild XP cap they should not be tied to that cap. I will list why:
• It takes away a method for smaller and new guilds to get a leg up on the guild leveling.
• It removes a valuable tool for guild leadership to promote cooperation and camaraderie amongst diverse populations of guild members.
• It puts al the emphasis and incentives back solely on individual progression and end-game raiding.
This is exactly the opposite of what everyone was so excited about when the new guild leveling system was introduced and promoted.
raven Feb 15th 2011 9:14PM
Here is my biggest issue, it's more of a guild rep thing than a guild achievement thing, BUT in order to buy the rewards from the achievements you have to have a certain rep with the guild. Anyway my problem is thus, I am in a lvl 11 guild, joined it because of friends right before cata, about 50 memebers, lots of alts. Anyway a few people decided to take a break from wow, so others decided to find other guilds so they could get into raids easier. The guild is still progressing fine without those that decided to take a break or leave, and I am about half way through revered with the guild. I too had considered leaving to join a different guild with other friends of mine that is a more active guild, I mean I'm raiding with that other guild anyway, and our guild has become one that everyone does their own thing, no guild events, and if it benefites the guild, that was a byproduct. BUT if I leave I loose ALL my guild reputation. My main toon had Loremaster, Exalted, Violet/Red protodrake, Insane, Diplomat, Ambassador, Seeker, and a whole score of other achievements prior to cata's release. (yes i did insane when shendralar was still part of it). My main has since hit lvl 85 and has done loremaster of cata. How on earth am I ever going to get exalted with another guild? The only quests I have to do are the ones that are in the Old countries that don't award guild rep, and being the achievement whore that I am I've slowly been knocking those new achievements out while waiting on dungeon ques. Dailies? What dailies, I'm already exalted with all but one of the new factions, and that one will only take one more Heroic run. I do the TB dailies for the tokens, but thats what 12 a day, and I do the cooking one, but only until I have all the recipies, and that will give me what 100 guild rep a day. Even if I did dailies that I don't technically need, just for the guild rep/money I still can't do more than 25 a day. So when I join the other guild, I won't be able to buy any of the rewards because I don't have the appropriate guild rep, which is fine I should earn the rep, But I have practically no way at all of even earning the guild rep. If there is another way I would love to know because there are so many forums online right now about guild rep/achieves I can't seem to muddle through what is fact and what is opinion or even current.