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The latest patch 5.4 newsBreakfast Topic: Who will be the ultimate boss encounter of WoW?
by Darren Brown 
Dec 14th 2010 at 8:00AM
Illidan. Arthas. Deathwing. Gamon?
In WoW, we kill a lot of things. From x number of boars to 10,000-year-old, demon-juiced night elves, we gear up for and defeat just about everything that comes our way, assuming we can stay out of the fire. But at some point, even WoW, as with all good things, must come to an end.
Both for the game and for players in the game, a last boss will almost certainly arrive. For me, the last boss was simple: Arthas, the Lich King. As players, we've been following his rise, fall, and next rise for years. We watched him succumb to the dark side -- queue evil laugh -- and fall from his perch as a hero of Light into a twisted master of undeath. Then he taunted us throughout the Wrath of the Lich King expansion. Finally, we vanquished him, fulfilling years of adventure.
Unfortunately for my ideal ending, I still enjoy and want to continue playing the game. Now we have Deathwing flying around, killing folks. Will he be the fated endgame boss? More Old Gods, maybe? Or perhaps even the Titans themselves will come back to purge the world of our meddling.
Who do you think should be the last boss of WoW? Do you think there will be a last boss?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics, Guest Posts
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 11)
balazamon0 Dec 14th 2010 10:48AM
Actually if you take the time to play the worgan starting zone the forsaken attack before the Gilneas even see anyone from the alliance and then its only the night elves because they know the history of the curse and feel its their responsibility to help them. There is really no defense for salvanas here, she attacked them not the other way around. Then you have Grommash actually doing something good(forbidding more plague and as soon as the ambassador leaves from telling her that she laughs and says do it anyway).
I would have to say there is no leader in game I would love to kill more...
xoxotl Dec 14th 2010 10:52AM
@Wafflesan
Um. No. Sorry, but you're wrong.
"The whole attacking the worgen thing is because they are near forsaken territory and allied with the alliance"
First of all... Gilneas was there first. They were quite happy to be holed up in their little kingdom behind their wall. Sure, they had a (ahem) people-turning-into-werewolves problem, but it was an internal situation.
They didn't reach out for outside help and side with the Alliance until AFTER the Forsaken invaded. And not only did the Forsaken invade, they used biological weapons after they were clearly instructed not to do so by the new Warchief of the Horde. (As a matter of fact, the only Alliance involvement in Gilneas was a force of Night Elves to help evacuated the Gileans from their homeland after rendering the area uninhabitable to living beings via the Plague). Also, Sylvanas herself took a parting shot at Prince Liam Greymane and killed him out of sheer, bitter spite.
Playing through both the Worgan and Forsaken starting quests, it's very very clear that Sylvanas has a serious chip on her shoulder, and her ultimate goal is obviously the end of all sentient life on Azeroth. To be replaced by undeath, under her rule.
If you want to root for her and the Forsaken, that's fine and dandy. But let's not fool ourselves, shall we?
(cutaia) Dec 14th 2010 11:04AM
"don't attack faction leaders lest you incur the wrath of fans"
http://pampi.homelinux.com/games/nintendo_ds/images-cover_front/1816.jpg (?)
No, but really...how is "being near the Forsaken" a reason to attack them? I hope you never get into politics.
Eberron Dec 14th 2010 11:09AM
@Waffle
So you're aware, my problem with Sylvanas isn't her aggressive stance. That's pretty common in Warcraft and while people can argue the relative merits of such actions they're at least consistent.
For example, I think Garrosh works as a perfect foil for Varian. I like them from a story perspective. It gives us the kind of open faction warfare that's defined the Warcraft story from the onset.
Now, Sylvanas on the other hand, has taken it to a whole new level. Or rather, a whole old level.
The issue is that she's a substitute for Arthas at the moment. She's walked a very clear, very obvious road so far in the expansion. This isn't crazy conspiracy stuff either. The val'kyr while you're questing in Silverpine note her similarities to the Lich King as well.
A vast chunk of Sylvanas dialogue so far in this expansion is such that if you were just to sub out the "Lady Sylvanas Windrunner:" before it you'd be forgiven for attributing it to Arthas himself. Before, during and after his fall.
There's something to consider about the lore in the world when you realize what Sylvanas is doing raising new Forsaken.
Between holy magic (The Light) being spiritually caustic to the point of inflicting pain to the undead (including Death Knights/Forsaken), Sylvanas' own reaction to her being turned in to a banshee as well as the seemingly fundimental aspect of the Forsaken to rot the earth anywhere they settle it's not unreasonable to infer that being undead, even if they are on your side, is antithetical to the natural order of life in Warcraft.
Sylvanas has spent two gets and two whole expansions cutting a bloody path through the Scourge being perfectly willing to let her allies be caught in the crossfire trying to get revenge for the terrible trauma inflicted upon her by the Lich King: The loss of her honour by being denied a warrior's death in battle and her cursed existence.
Then, in one fell swoop, Sylvanas turns around and begins doing exactly the same thing to other people. For the same half-hearted, unjustifiable reasons as Arthas did.
Sylvanas problem isn't that she's misguided. It's that she's a hypocrite and clearly off her nut. She attacked Gilneas and Southshore on nothing but paranoid grounds using biological warfare without provocation.
At this point any Alliance aggression against the Forsaken is fully justified. The most amusing thing is everyone focuses on how Garrosh's warmongering ways are going to cause tons of bloodshed yet with Genn Greymane at Varian's side in Stormwind there's Varian hearing what happened in Gilneas right from someone who saw it first hand.
All Varian's going to hear is how the Horde are homicidal, genocidal, psychotic savages who attack without reason slaughtered unarmed civilians using the same plague that killed the man who raised his son in his absence.
So long as they're talking about Sylvanas, they're right.
lividmonkey Dec 14th 2010 12:52PM
Come on. Just think how you would react if you were killed and reanimated to do some douche's bidding just because you were a pain in the ass? I find everything Sylvanas does to be justified.
As an aside, I think the dichotomy in the Horde is what makes it so much more interesting than the Alliance. You either have peace-loving hippies (Dranaei and Night Elves), war-mongering hypocrites (Humans and Dwarves) or Gnomes. I'm not sure where Worgen fit in right now. On the Horde, you have the now warmongering Orcs who used to be strong and noble, the tree-hugging Tauren (who now thirst for revenge?), the slash and burn guano-crazy Undead, the "what the hell do they do?" Blood Elves (seriously, what is their deal? You NEVER see their leader do anything), and now Goblins. Much more diversity on the Horde side. But, if you ask me, the gnomes and goblins should make their own allegiance and be the final boss. A massive engineering wonder and a huge bomb that threatens to blow up Azeroth. Totally by accident, of course.
Toggle Dec 14th 2010 1:20PM
Well, I think that its easy to say that Sylvanas is becoming a new Lich King, but at the same time, shes also perpetuating her species in the one way it can be perpetuated. She has two choices as I see it:
1: Lead the Forsaken until they all die (again), probably fading into obscurity.
2: Make new Forsaken, be shunned, hated, reviled, but the species of the Forsaken will continue on throughout history.
Even if the first option is the more noble of the two, I think any good leader could make a very compelling argument for the second option as well.
As for the use of the plague, it is, at least to some extent, sanctioned by the horde. I remember NPC dialog where they discussed how strong the plague that they were using at the time was. Whether its actually that strength or not, this is still the horde saying, "Hey, that betrayal sucked but the bioweapon was sweet, lets use it."
On a personal level, I do enjoy this new, more evil horde/forsaken. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a faction or character whose motives are questionable in fiction, and I think that the developments of Cataclysm have been quite fun to watch. Its CERTAINLY a lot better than the faction leaders in vanilla and tbc who basically just stood in the capitals and meted out lowbie quests, with few exceptions.
Artificial Dec 14th 2010 3:02PM
@Eberron: Wow, so many falsehoods in one long post, there's no way I'm going to point out each and every mistake. I'll simply leave it at this: if you quest through Silverpine, you spend some time riding with Sylvanas and talking to her, getting to know how she things, what makes her tick, and why she does what she does. It's patently obvious from the dialog, whether you like her or not, that Blizzard is trying to portray her as having her heart in the right place, regardless of how ruthlessly she might pursue her noble goals. So, regardless of what you make think personally of Sylvanas and her methods, it's clear that Blizzard still thinks of her as, in as far as anyone can be said to be this in this morally grey universe, one of the "good guys".
Felix_NZ Dec 14th 2010 3:29PM
@ Toggle, Trouble is, the forsaken are not a species, they are cursed, undead humans (and a few elves) Thus there is no argument for 'furthering our species'. Look at any quest where you have to kill an elite undead mob (eg. Mor'ladim) If you get a followup with their spirit they are THANKFUL for you ending their curse and releasing them from Undeath. I personally hope we'll see Alleria come back and do the same for Sylvannas. It would be Epic.
Toggle Dec 14th 2010 4:13PM
They are a sentient species with their own culture and physiology, separate from humans. How can you tell them, "Sorry guys, but you're just not a species"?
By your logic, the Worgen aren't a species either. Maybe they don't deserve to have a legacy either?
icepyro Dec 14th 2010 5:38PM
ITT: People who have read about the Silverpine/Gilnaeas struggle and perhaps watched that first scene, but have not played out the whole zone.
See, I'm not going to spoil it, but Sylvannas finds out what's awaiting her and that seemed to unnerve her just a bit. She tells you to go forward while she returns to UC to figure out some stuff. I haven't played the plaguelands or any other region dealing with her yet, but based on how Silverpine ended, she is very unsure of herself, and doesn't want to be another LK.
I guess lore-wise, Deathknell is still raising undead, but yeah, I'm curious to see if they expand on her existential crisis.
Kolonus Dec 14th 2010 6:37PM
I scanned most of these replies, and I just want to make sure everyone is reminded that Sylvanas' desperation comes from her people being endangered.
She is very plain about fearing that the Forsaken are doomed to go extinct without a way to reproduce. How do you make more Undead? You need bodies and a way to make them Forsaken. Val'kyr got the resurrection covered. Bodies? How about all the humans to your East that have been trying to extinct you forever? Why not those other humans holed up in the South that fought the Horde in a previous war?
Sylvanas definitely has a lot of rage still from losing her life and her family. And she has been dealing with the living being her enemies for so long, she probably finds it difficult to value it. She now has the mats and the means to turn her band of independent undead into a real civilization on Azeroth. She may be a little extreme at the moment, but whether it's maliciousness, a lack of direction or sense of fulfillment, or perhaps an outside influence altogether remains to be seen.
And if you've got a problem about a race terraforming their own little corner of Azeroth for the sake of it being livable, you can ask the Goblins and the Nightelves how they sleep at night.
Eberron Dec 14th 2010 7:16PM
@Lividmonkey - "Come on. Just think how you would react if you were killed and reanimated to do some douche's bidding just because you were a pain in the ass? I find everything Sylvanas does to be justified."
This is why I've always found sympathetic. I'm hesitent to use the world 'justified' as her own pathological need for revenge has led her to make some real mistakes (Putress) but you could forgive her. She's been cursed, poxed, not by someone who made an innocent mistake of coming to her home but by someone who deliberately murdered her for the purpose of torturing her with unlife.
The thing is... Arthas is dead. She's either got to let go or find herself consumed by this. She's got her revenge, Arthas paid for his crimes but now the hypocracy comes in to play.
She's not a bad guy cuz she's aggressive or single minded in revenge. She's a bad guy because the thing she spent her whole existence as an undead trying to get revenge on is something she's doing to other free people herself.
She's becoming (become?) the exact same sort of vicious, unholy monster she swore to rid the world of.
I do agree that it makes for an interesting story, it's that being a bad guy usually means you stand between a raider and a loot table at some point.
@Toggle - Species perpetuation.
Option 1 is hard to swallow, but the noble, admirable ones seem to be doing that. Admittedly the Knights of the Ebon Blade haven't got much press in Cata but those that we see aren't swearing up and down that the KotEB have suffered many losses in Northrend so they need to figure out how to make more of them.
No, I imagine they get it. They're unnatural and the only way for Azeroth to truly heal is for them to slowly die out.
I interpret the Horde's reaction to the plague differently. The lower commanders are saying to stop, she's insisting it isn't what they think it is, but Garrosh (Warmonger von Killsamam) Hellscream himself empathically stated that it was forbidden. He didn't bend on this, he lost a fellow Nagrand orc brother in Saurfang Jr to that stuff. He said it goes away, for good.
Story wise.. I kind of agree. I do think she's the bad guy tho.
@Artificial.
Falsehoods? Name them. Name three. Go for it. I've played Silverpine all the way through. I did it sort of slackjawed at just how despicable it all was but hey it's just a game and I enjoyed watching Arthas fall so likewise I can enjoy Sylvanas doing the same.
So yeah, I did that bit with the ride through Silverpine and her. Saying "I'm totally just in a tough spot but I'm the good guy" is one of the positions she takes that draws parrallel to Arthas. He said and did the same thing all through WC3. He compromised and became that which he hated.
Just like Sylvanas is doing.
Given the response at the lore panel to Koltira and a comment on the Forsaken taking a much darker path then before, I don't know that they do. I certainly believe the Forsaken as a whole can and will be redeemed in some manner, I just strongly suspect Sylvanas won't be the one to redeem them.
@Different species,culture, etc.
The Worgen can presumably still breed. They're now different, even foreign to Azeroth, but they're still alive. Given that becoming a Worgen from the ones we see in Silverpine (Crowley's offer) is a voluntary act it seems that there's morally grey areas to it but they're still the peaceful ones. They seemed content to stay in their kingdom and work stuff out on their own as they always did. Until the Forsaken came and screwed it all up.
@Sylvanas crisis. All she says is she's going back to Undercity to recuperate. Now I'll admit they could use this as her turning point, but she didn't come out of the "only darkness" (wonder who said that? ~.^) like "I've done something terrible" she just reaffirms that the Val'kyr are the future of the Forsaken as well as they're never going to give up Lordearon.
We'll see tho. :)
Felix_NZ Dec 14th 2010 7:17PM
@ Toggle again. You keep saying that word, I don't think it means what you think it means. Yes Worgen are not a separate species, they're humans (and some elves again) who've taken too much of a liking to feral metamorphosis. The only difference in physiology is the rotting flesh. Culture is not an identification of species, Culture is just culture, I'm the same species as as someone from any different country but our culture may be wildly different. No-one is denying them their legacy either, former pawns of the lich king they rebelled against his control and (as the players) had a key role in defeating him. Recaptured their kingdom of lordaeron etc. Pretty big legacy. Sylvannas' own quotes are 'what joy is there in this curse' now she's imposing it on others. That's not multiplying a species, that's some kind of deranged eternal form of slavery.
Felix_NZ Dec 14th 2010 7:28PM
Second sentance is meant to read "Only physiological difference between humans and forsaken is the rotting flesh (and whatever necromantic magic makes their eyes glow for that matter)
Toggle Dec 15th 2010 9:59PM
I do understand what a species is.
Although undeath was not something any Forsaken actually chose, it brought new capabilities and immunities; [Will of the Forsaken] reflects the sheer mental will to resist the Lich King's will that every Forsaken innately possesses from the day of their dark rebirth.
As the Forsaken are physically dead, they have the ability to [Cannibalize], metabolizing the remains of humanoid corpses to regain their own strength.
The undead do not need to draw breath to fill their lungs, and can thus also stay underwater much longer than any other race.
These seem to be an indication of physiological differences.
But really, the definition of the word species is pointless to my argument. A sentient group could still probably be forgiven for not wanting to die out. In fact, I think I like them better for making this decision than if they had all skipped off into the long goodnight holding hands.
C.Christian.Moore Dec 14th 2010 8:04AM
Sargeras.
Trentrollins Dec 14th 2010 8:06AM
Keyboard Kat.
Turgarin Dec 14th 2010 8:04AM
Hogger.
Jyetie Dec 14th 2010 4:00PM
Elwynn Forest (and the Stockades) was merely a setback!
Michael Dec 14th 2010 8:05AM
HOGGER