Ghostcrawler talks tanks and threat

Perhaps it's timely, then, that Lead Systems Designer Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street posted a blog entry about Blizzard's philosophy with regard to threat. The piece is something of a follow up to his previous blog entry on Vengeance and threat. A few of the key takeaways of his latest post include:
Threat Needs to Matter"... if someone is nuking or cleaving a random target on a group pull instead of assisting the tank, that's not the tank's fault."
"... overall, we'd like to present threat better since we're asking you to take it seriously in the PvE game."
The post, "Threat Needs to Matter," is worth reading regardless of whether you're a tank or not. The full text is after the break.
Threat Needs to MatterSo, let's back up a moment to controlling the enemy. "Control" includes things like positioning the boss, or doing specific things at specific times, such as swapping with an off tank. It also includes making sure the boss doesn't attack anyone else. That's where threat generation comes into play.
If threat generation is too easy then the entire risk of the encounter drops. Newsflash: we don't actually want encounters to be easy. We want encounters to be fun, and for most players, that includes both rewards and risks.
We want tanks to care about the buttons they hit instead of just relying on auto-attacking to control their target. We don't necessarily want very complicated tank DPS rotations, because as I mentioned above, tanks do have other things to keep track of. But we want their combat abilities to be engaging. Good tanks should be those who control, survive, and generate sufficient threat.
On the other hand, when threat is too hard to maintain, it can be exasperating. Tanks get understandably frustrated when the game is asking them to do something but not giving them the tools to do it. The non-tanks in the group also become frustrated, because they feel throttled. It's one thing when overcoming the boss is challenging. It feels worse when you know that another player is standing in your way, keeping you from achieving your top performance.
We don't usually want DPS classes to have to stop attacking in order to keep from generating too much threat. We do want players to pay attention. We don't think it's too much to ask for DPS and healers to wait a couple of GCDs for the tank to get the enemy under control -- we're not asking for five stacks of Sunder Armor these days. What we really mean by proper threat management is knowing things like when it's time to go all out, when it's appropriate to use a threat-reducing cooldown, and most importantly, which is the right target to be attacking. I'm not trying to bash pugs here, but I am amazed at how often a nuker will pick a random target instead of the one being tanked, then blame the tank for not holding aggro (and then blame the healer when they die). In short, if threat is too easy, the game is boring. If threat is too difficult, the game is frustrating.
How then do you guys (and the developers!) know when threat is a problem? Here are some handy guidelines.
-- If a tank is trying to generate threat on a single target, and it runs off to kill a DPS class, that's a problem.
-- If a tank is trying to generate area threat on a group, and the tanked things are running off to kill healers, that's a problem.
-- If Vengeance falling off causes the tank to lose threat, that's a problem.
These problems can have a couple of causes. It could be a problem we caused, meaning that even an expertly-played tank has low threat generation because our numbers are undertuned. Or it could be that only an expertly-played tank can generate threat because you're asked to manage too many abilities. Or it could be that Vengeance is the only thing allowing you to generate enough threat because the size of the buff is masking low threat generation from your abilities. It could also be a problem you need to fix on your end: if someone is nuking or cleaving a random target on a group pull instead of assisting the tank, that's not the tank's fault.
Now, there are things we don't like about threat as a mechanic. It's fairly gamey as game mechanics go and we think there are probably better ways to communicate it to players. There are some mods that do a very credible job given the limited information we provide, but overall we'd like to present threat better since we're asking you to take it seriously in the PvE game.
-Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft and the skipper of a very nice ship where they serve cute sandwiches with the crust removed. And gin.
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm has destroyed Azeroth as we know it; nothing is the same! In WoW Insider's Guide to Cataclysm, you can find out everything you need to know about WoW's third expansion, from leveling up a new goblin or worgen to breaking news and strategies on endgame play.Filed under: News items
Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news





Reader Comments (Page 3 of 7)
Cyno01 Dec 16th 2010 3:33PM
I had an issue with this in a group last night in H-HoO, the tank dropped after 3 pulls before i figured out what was going on. I forget the exact CC order, but skull was to be killed first of course, and moon was CCd by someone other than me. 3 pulls in a row, i somehow ended up DPSing moon, and with 5 stacks of DP and a rupture, it couldnt be re-CCd.
My SOP on a pull is to tricks the tank, press "f", prep, ShS, ambush and go to town, so how was i constantly winding up on the wrong target? The tank didnt have skull targeted right away! But he dropped group before he could explain himself.
Granted, it was sort of my fault, and i felt like an idiot, but i have a tank too, went 11/12 in ICC normal with him, so i know the ropes, a frequent last word at the end of randoms where a dps would constantly be pulling other mobs off me was "nice run, and hunter, i hope you fix your 'f' key" "huh?" "exactly". Why wasnt the tank targeting the right mob on the pull!?!?
Sorry, random rant, but its still bugging me.
Didaxical Dec 16th 2010 4:08PM
The assist key sometimes gets DPS into trouble.
It's happened several times that a DPS will assist me at the precise moment that I've switched to my secondary target, then proceed to unleash their entire toolkit.
This is why I tend to rely heavily on raid markers.
But the real key here is for DPS to just pay attention. Raid markers and the assist key are just tools.
Pay attention, and if you're screen starts flashing red, or Omen suddenly has your bar at the top, slow down, switch targets, or both.
Foxfyr Dec 16th 2010 4:24PM
That strategy works ok when someone is asigned as Main Assist. But that person has to know that he must be targeting the kill target at all times.
There are a dozen different reasons that a 5 man tank may switch targets. If the established plan is to kill the skull, it is up to the DPS to make sure they are on the right target.
aspiringhobo Dec 17th 2010 2:21AM
I have a macro on my bars that auto-assists my focus target, which (unless I have to keep something CC'd for a long period of time or something) I set to be the tank when as soon as I zone in. That way I don't even have to target them first. It's practically part of my rotation by now, and I'd like to think it's made the tanks' jobs a bit easier.
toofat2serve Dec 16th 2010 3:14PM
Go GC. I love this guy.
As a guy who raids and runs dungeons in all three roles, it can be frustrating as heck in randoms, because, yes, in fact, I DO know how to do YOUR job too! (directed at random scrub PUGger, not this fine audience. Unless you're a scub PUGger. In which case you can die (in game) in a fire. )
shaconnors Dec 16th 2010 3:18PM
Dear GC,
I love you.
Sincerely,
Tank for Hire
Joel Dec 16th 2010 3:19PM
Tattoo this on the backs of both your hands. Then write it in permanent marker on your monitor.
If the tank dies, it's the healer's fault.
If the healer dies, it's the tank's fault.
If the DPS dies, it's their own damn fault.
Thank you, Ms. Robert for that.
Alexa Dec 16th 2010 3:35PM
There are definitely times this isn't true.
RS Dec 16th 2010 3:42PM
I think that's going to be my sig now...
I like it.
And I'm DPS.
RS
Cyrus Dec 16th 2010 4:15PM
"There are definitely times this isn't true."
Sure, definitely. There are lots of fights with damage that hits absolutely everyone in the room, or NPCs that choose targets completely at random, or massive damage spikes, or computer problems that have nothing to do with character actions.
90 percent of the time though? Damage that hits everyone in the room won't one-shot them; it'll take them down to 80 percent or maybe 50 percent at worst and that will be it for the next minute. Healers will have plenty of time to top them off with HoTs and/or area of effect heals and almost any class can top themselves off as well. NPCs rarely choose targets completely at random, and if they do they can almost always be crowd-controlled or avoided. And massive damage spikes almost always hit the tank and/or are avoidable. As for computer problems, Internet connection issues happen to us all, but more often than not, problems can be mitigated by common-sense maintenance. (If you have 4 fps even at the lowest graphics settings, then do a virus scan, upgrade your hardware, or don't raid or do heroics. Sorry if that sounds elitist, but it's not like raiding is your salaried job.)
So 90 percent of the time, yes, actually, deaths of tanks are the healers' fault, deaths of healers are tanks' fault and deaths of dps are their own fault. For those remaining five percent, blame really weird, hard-to-prepare-for design in encounters, or Comcast.
Don't take this personally, though. People screw up! It happens! Own up to it, try not to do the same thing the next time, and it will all be OK. Be reasonable about it ("sorry, my fault", for example, if you stood in the fire too long, and run back without being asked), and reasonable people will be reasonable to you. "It's your own damn fault" may be true but doesn't mean "you're a bad person". (Well, not necessarily.)
Elvgren Dec 16th 2010 4:16PM
I'd also add if the healer dies it's the dps's fault ... and I am either dps or tank. ESPECIALLY as we get used to the "new" mechanics of threat and CC ... dps needs to keep an eye on the healers and draw strays off them when they get one. Hunters and rogues ... this REALLY means you!
The other rule ... if you pull aggro it's your fault. Period. End of story. You simply are not paying attention (and we all do it!)
Kel Dec 16th 2010 4:16PM
I agree with Alexa but for different reasons, I suspect. It used to be that way. But with the new mechanics, I've been in situations that are more like this:
If the DPS dies, it's the DPS's fault.
If the TANK dies, it's because the DPS stood in shit, the healer ran out of mana healing them and couldn't heal the tank, so it's still the DPS's fault.
If the HEALER dies, it's because the above happened and then the mobs destroyed the healer, and it's STILL the DPS's fault.
Before you start flaming me, let me explain that I'm saying this AS a DPS. And I think it's awesome. We are no longer responsible solely for killing bad things and staying alive. Our every action has lasting effects on not just our survival and our dps, but the survival of the entire group. If we can use our CDs, our mitigations and shields, or simply be aware of the mechanics and not stand in bright stuff on the ground (or even be aware of what stuff is the GOOD stuff and stand in IT so that the healer doesn't have to waist another heal on us), it makes it so that the tank and healer can do their jobs better and the whole group will win!
Candina@WH Dec 16th 2010 4:17PM
I'd would like to offer this addendum to the three rules:
TGIF --- TANK GOES IN FIRST
Cyrus Dec 16th 2010 4:31PM
"I agree with Alexa but for different reasons, I suspect. It used to be that way. But with the new mechanics, I've been in situations that are more like this:
...
If the TANK dies, it's because the DPS stood in shit, the healer ran out of mana healing them and couldn't heal the tank, so it's still the DPS's fault."
That might be the case right now, but it shouldn't last. If the current mana issues remain, then healers will stop healing dps who stand in the fire, and that problem will solve itself.
Lyinar Dec 17th 2010 9:33AM
I've run into occasions where both the healer and tank died because of one of the DPS in the group.
My Rogue's first attempt at running Shadowfang Keep for the class weapon ended after Commander Springvale thanks to this idiot of a Warrior who decided to pull bosses when the tank and healer weren't ready.
I was doing my part... Assist the tank, watch my aggro, stab the fething hell out of the enemy. This guy seemed like just another player right up until we finished clearing Silverlaine's feasthall guests, the healer sat down to drink, stated she was OOM, and the moron decided to go and pull Silverlaine anyway. I survived thanks to Evasion and Improved Recuperate, but both the tank and healer died.
Then, after the tank threatened to leave if he pulled again, we cleared our way to Springvale's room, and the moron pulled him while we were still fighting the guards. Needless to say, everyone left after that fight, and before I left the group, I told him he could finish the bloody instance himself if he wanted to pull that crap.
And he wasn't even one of the "Oh, I'm just going to get my class quest done, and screw the rest of the group wanting to finish" kind of players, either... He wasn't even level 20 yet. He was either a total n00b who refused to listen, an outright idiot, or a griefer.
Chris Dec 17th 2010 5:32PM
Wow so many old adages that aren't true anymore. Wrath really corrupted it's player base. OP is completely wrong. There is so much that happens now in a fight, the fault of a wipe could be anything. Bad CC, Missed interrupt, standing in fire, or simply not geared enough for the fight. It has so many exceptions now, it's a useless saying.
Regarding TGIF. Again useless. CC pulls, ranged silences, etc are now the predominant pull methods.
Saturnbluesl2 Dec 16th 2010 3:18PM
I liked one of the last things he mentioned in his post:
"There are some mods that do a very credible job given the limited information we provide...".
I think GC has a very solid message to send here. It's aimed at the dps in dungeons and raids and that message is: "Download a f*%&$ threat meter and use it". But I could be wrong.
TonyMcS Dec 16th 2010 9:59PM
While I think a threat meter like Omen is required or even paying attention to the Blizz UI threat warnings, just following a few simple rules like those mentioned in the posts will prevent most problems.
1. MARK the mobs. I know the bright players use target of target, but put a skull on the one you are going to kill first please - it really helps the DPS.
2. CC. Check how many party members can CC and then make sure you MARK them and get the appropriate member to root, sheep, hex, chain etc. Oh and try not to CC the casters, there's not much point ;-)
3. Kill order. You have all those mobs marked - make sure you follow a consistent kill order or if you need to change it - TELL everyone when you are.
4. DPS WAIT - then WAIT some more. Most tanks need a few seconds for threat, so let them get it.
5. WATCH the threat meter or the Blizz UI. If you are getting close to stealing threat - STOP.
6. Heal thyself and don't stand in fire. Mana is a lot more important to healers now and they don't have it to waste on your mistakes. So use whatever mitigation you have, avoid damage, pop any healing or mitigation cooldowns when needed (remember flasks?) and click on the goddamn lightwell if it's there.
7. You're still alive, the mobs are dead. WAIT for the healer/DPS to regain mana.
budjb Dec 16th 2010 3:18PM
I rolled a tank when the expansion came out, and it's my first time tanking. I tried to be a good DPS on my other toons, waiting for them to build aggro a little bit, not pulling, trying to avoid face pulling etc. It amazes me how horribad some DPS can be as a tank, and even moreso how little they care about it.
So far tanking has been pretty rewarding, but I can see how tank burnout can happen.
budjb Dec 16th 2010 3:21PM
Oh, and seriously DPSers, set your tank as focus and display focus target if you have a unit frames mod that supports it, or at a bare minimum assist your tank. I understand there are AOE abilities, but there's no reason you should be single targeting a mob that no one else is.