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12-16-2010 @ 3:08PM
This blue post summarized: Dear dps, DON'T BE EFFING RETARDED!!!!!Sincerely, Blizzard
12-16-2010 @ 3:44PM
Last night, with a druid tank, I put MD on the fuzzy butt, waited for 10 seconds, shot one Multi-shot and then started in on the tanks focus with explosive shot followed by black arrow, and one steady shot. There were a couple auto shots in there as well. The mob peeled off the tank like he had skunk breath.Sorry, not my fault. If the tank can't generate enough threat under that circumstance (his fault or the game mechanics fault) then something is wrong and it ain't because I'm playing it wrong. We were both lvl 85 and outfitted with quest blues and greens. According to the armory, my average iLvl is 322 equipped and his was about the same.I spent the rest of the run at half-speed and was still getting warnings from Omen. The tank was decent in that he did all the right things at the right time but I wasn't the only one having to back off. The mage and Spriest were having a tough time as well.Suffice to say that currently, you can't just say "BAD DPS IS BAD" and call it a day. There are other issues at play here and you discredit yourself by ignoring that fact.
12-16-2010 @ 3:47PM
There was also a bit about tanks not biting off more than they can chew.But yes, DPS needs to understand how threat works, how the mechanics of tanking work with their abilities, and how the mob's damage gets delivered. When I'm healing instances on the way to 85 (resto druid levl 71 now and coming from a rogue main) I'm always having to "advise" the melee classes who want to stand next to their tank and fight the good fright from the front. I have to explain how parry works and that most melee mobs are also able to cleave. Then I have to explain that because of all of this he's compounding damage on himself and on the tank which burns through my mana. Most of this conversation happens during the silence of the wipe that I couldn't heal through and after I'm accused of being a shitty healer. If I stick around after the wipe I either see them take my advice and learn why rogues do it from behind OR we rinse, repeat, and wipe again and I do a /rude, apologize to the rest and drop group. (Of course, after cataclysm nobody is playing their early 70s so my queue times aren't insta-cast anymore and I sometimes just vote to kick.)
12-16-2010 @ 3:51PM
Yeah that pretty much sums it up. Wish you had written these posts. Wouldve saved me about 5 min of my life
12-16-2010 @ 3:59PM
So, you put Misdirect, an ability that transfers all threat you do for four seconds to the target, on the tank, and then sat there for 10 seconds waiting? You may as well have just sat there for 10 seconds without the MD. You have to do some damage during that 4 seconds, or it's pointless. Also, 30 seconds later, the tanks threat is going to drop sharply, assuming you actually provided any threat to them via Misdirect, because that threat goes away. That's a crucial time to be watching your threat, because if you're going full out on your DPS, you very likely CAN pull threat off of them.There ARE other issues at play here. You're bad and playing badly. Bad DPS IS Bad in this case.
12-16-2010 @ 4:36PM
@ Josin - The MD threat doesn't start until the first hunters attack lands, and then it lasts for 4 seconds. So when he said he waited 10 seconds, that was 10 seconds of threat the tank was building before he started doing any damage. In addition, that threat doesn't transfer anywhere, it simply ceases to exist after that 4 seconds.Regardless, the story sounds iffy to me. If the hunter and tank were the same gear, then the threat mechanics are not so messed up right now that this could have happened as easily as stated. The hunter would have had to crit quite nicely, and the tank would have to have been tanking poorly, especially if the peeled target in question was the primary target. What I think happened was the group was treating the pack ans a pack and not a kill priority list. A few different things may have gone wrong, but this situation would have never happened with a kill prioritization.IMO, this is a case of using Wrath pack tactics in a Cata/Vanilla world. It simply won't work.As a DPS, YOU are responsible for your threat, not the tank, or the developers.It only takes one pull and a glance at Omen to see where you need to set your DPS prioritization to, even if you have to auto-shoot to let the tank build aggro. The right thing to do is play within the threat mechanics, and skill levels of the players you are provided, and right now, most work just fine if you pay attention.PS: Although personally I think Prot Warriors and BM Hunters need a little buffing.
12-16-2010 @ 4:30PM
@JosinThe 4 seconds doesnt start until the first attack the Hunter deals.http://www.wowhead.com/spell=34477So he is waiting the 10 seconds to let the tank gain advanced aggro, then bringing in extra aggro from Misdirect, and THEN still pulling aggro. Which means something is kinda off.
12-16-2010 @ 4:33PM
@Hrothgar Yes. Not to be specific because I mean this towards ALL hunters and pretty much ALL dps, but it is your fault. A new or inexperienced tank cannot make a quick adjustment that helps alleviate this situation as fast as you can. You have immediate options beyond MD. If that is the tank and the fight you have then it's up to you to, and me, to adjust and make the best of it, to try to make the run successful. Sounds like you effectively did by going "half-speed". But to throw up your hands and say "Not my bad." is not helping folks get used to the "new" dynamics of vanilla WoW instance models.
"So, you put Misdirect, an ability that transfers all threat you do for four seconds to the target, on the tank, and then sat there for 10 seconds waiting?"Them sitting there for 10 seconds is fine - MD puts a 20s buff on the Hunter when cast. Once the hunter does damage, this buff gets replaced with a second MD buff that only lasts 4s - the second buff is the one that does the actual redirection of threat.This is nice in that the Hunter can prep for a pull without wasting any time of the actual threat redirection.http://www.wowhead.com/spell=34477http://www.wowhead.com/spell=35079
12-16-2010 @ 5:02PM
@ Josin, the misdirect doesn't actually start counting its 4 seconds until you attack. So you CAN put the misdirect up, wait 10 secs, then start your 4 second misdirect timer. So he essentially waited 14 secs to start DPS, plus gave a temporary head start to the tank.
12-16-2010 @ 5:34PM
This is something that really used to frustrate me about the tanks in Wrath, though. As a dpser, I -always- wait for my tank to gain sufficient aggro before even dotting up a mob, let alone using a direct damage spell. And, the only time I use aoe is when I am incredibly confident that the tank can handle it and that the tank and group would prefer I do so. These are habits I learned in BC and despite the ease of Wrath heroics and the abundance of players that overgeared the content, I still stuck to what I was accustomed to and what I felt was the most prudent way to play. This means that I don't always necessarily end up topping the charts, but to be honest, I'd rather be a player who doesn't cause a wipe than a player who tops the meters. And, when the group is right and I can be both, then excellent.But, in Wrath, we had so many "GO GO GO!" tanks. They raced through, leaving healers to lag behind, the dps to feel the need to go all out, and completely ruining any typical rules of engagement. Now, I know that in part, this is due to the fact that despite their immature and ridiculous behavior, these tanks knew that they would most likely faceroll the content and no real harm would be done. But, it doesn't change the fact that they were setting a terrible precedent. I feel like every role is going to have numerous players who desperately need to relearn how to behave in dungeon/raid environments and who need to retrain their brains to do things the Cataclysm way, rather than the Wrath way. But, I also feel like a lot of the people who are having difficulty and throwing blame around, are the people who took advantage of the way things were in Wrath, like the "GO GO GO!" tanks or the dps who stopped thinking and pew-pewed everything without reservation. I hated racing threw dungeons in Wrath. It didn't matter that I had done them all hundreds of times or that I knew them inside and out. I think the players who were willing to take their time and go slow for the sake of the newbie in their pug, or those who were willing to take the time and do things right, to get a stranger an achievement, are going to be the people who have the least amount of difficulty in Cataclysm. And, the players who were the most rude, abrupt, and self-centered in their play style are going to be the people who have the hardest time adapting to this new world and different (older) way of doing things.And, it's unfortunate that there tend to be more people with self-centered play styles, than there are people who are cooperative and willing to work well in a group, in the community.I think Wrath was a fantastic way to allow people who had less time to play the game, a much greater shot at seeing end-game content. As someone who has little time and cannot really raid, this was a blessing for me. But, that doesn't mean that I'm also not grateful for the larger use of CC again, in Cataclysm, or the "take your time" attitude that these dungeons/raids will breed. I'm over the moon about these changes. I think if Blizzard could marry Wrath dynamics with Cataclysm's, we'd have the perfect pairing. A way for the more casual player base to experience end-game content, while training them to do so properly. I've heard at least three people on my server mention this, in general/trade, and I think I've read it once or twice in blogs, as well. I think the people who are having the easiest time with these changes, are the people who are considered "casual." The people who seem to be the most butthurt about going through heroics slowly, CCings mobs constantly, and having to plan ahead, are the players who considered themselves "hardcore" in Wrath and who used to race through heroics, wanting to get them done in five minutes, and measured their epeens on a daily basis. The "casual" players in Wrath were the ones who were happy to be able to even -see- end game content. They were happy to have that opportunity in Wrath. And, because a lot of them were BC or Vanilla babies, they remembered the old way of doing things. They remembered how to CC mobs and how to wait for the tank to gain aggro. And, despite being casual, they followed those rules when playing. The players who thought they were hot stuff and raced through Wrath content, were also the self-proclaimed hardcores. And, they're the people who I see doing the most whining and crying this expansion.
12-16-2010 @ 6:07PM
This is why I don't like tanking very often. DPS are stupid. I've had to learn to do nothing but AoE threat at all times on both my Paladin and Death Knight because I have no idea which target the DPS are going for (because it's obviously never MY target).
12-16-2010 @ 6:37PM
@tulipblossom, I was one of those tanks that raced through Wrath instances. As a DK tank I got a lot of comments like, 'wow you can keep threat'. This was coming on as the gear outstripped the instance. I'd run with healers and tell them to switch to dps spec and heal me as needed. More DPS = Less damage taken. Heck I'd even have to use a defensive cooldown because of the pace!I'd queue up for the random instance for badges, and Utgarde Keep would come up. I had that instance down to a 15 minute run on avg, often 12. If the group is coming in with ICC gear, they should know how to play. If there's someone new, it may be an alt and they are g2g. If they are new the the instance I may slow it down. But spending unnecessary time in the instance you've already done 10+ times? Not I.I don't agree that the casual player is having the easiest time, I think it's just the opposite. The casual player didn't CC in the Wrath instances, and so they have to learn that now. I just got out of a Cata normal 85 instance with a Shammy that didn't even have Hex on his action bar. I think it's what your experience is. (I've seen casters rooted with no LoS....) It's been a very interesting week.I've decided to also heal the new instances and the biggest drain seems to be on the healer, with no CC healing is very tough. CC'ing 1-2 mobs makes a huge difference and actually, right now, I believe makes it go faster, because I don't have to drink between fights. I've found the trash is harder than the bosses sometimes. Is that what Blizz was going for? I'd like to see more CC during boss fights, make it more strategic. Trash is named that because it's what it is, trash. I think Blizz has a lot to think about for instances and encounters. Considering how many times they are run, some added flavor/variety between runs would be appreciated.Cheerio.
12-16-2010 @ 7:04PM
@feuerhund"Although personally I think Prot Warriors and BM Hunters need a little buffing."My main is a Prot Warrior and I'm seeing zero threat issues right now. In fact, my damage is so high on AOE packs that at the end of a run, I'm often leading the meters on overall DPS and damage done. (Which is also a good sign that the DPS are properly focus-firing instead of AOEing.) So far, everything has come down to the group I'm running with: for example, I started with an easy H-BRC and a hard H-SFK, and last night had an easy H-SFK and a hard H-BRC, all because of differing group composition.
12-16-2010 @ 8:24PM
To say that pulling threat is always the DPS's fault is ridiculous. Cataclysm is heralding the return of smart DPS. As a hunter (a damn good one, at that) I already have to deal with being grouped into the generalized "huntard" populace. I trap. I misdirect. I use my scatter, silencing, and tranquilizing shots when appropriate. When I see a tank is getting beat on too hard, I throw a distracting shot and kite the hardest hitting mob that's not being focused on until I need to feign and misdirect the mob back onto the tank. If the mob I distract is a caster, I'll use deterrence (which is especially nice when specced into mirrored blades). I know what I'm doing. I consider the most important skills that I bring to any group are empathy and compassion.I understand that tanking is by no means easy anymore. I understand that not everyone is as big into reading about their class and testing different approaches to playstyle as I am. If a tank is continually having threat issues, I'll try to offer some advice or point them in the right direction. If they brush it off, refuse to hear you out, or ignore what you say altogether, then the threat issues are on the tank.The DPS is in place to support the tank. If the tank doesn't accept the support, that is by no means the fault of the DPS. There's a lot of leftover "tank-entitlement" from Wrath in my Dungeon Finder experiences, but there's much more Wrath hold-out from all classes in general.We are in the throes of Cataclysm's growing pains. This settling phase we are going through is akin to us old Vanilla raiders who refused to replace their shiny purples with quest greens when Burning Crusade came along. Eventually everyone will see, quite clearly, that change is essential to surviving in the new figurative and literal landscape of Cataclysm.
12-16-2010 @ 8:43PM
(A bear tank didn't hold aggro)The obvious reason. He didn't have any rage and Enrage was on CD.In that case we have to get in a few white hits so we can get enough rage to mangle and maul something. Even then it's slow going. I almost want to macro a warning to let people know when I need (lots) of time to build up threat due to pulling with no rage. Because it's WAY different then pulling with rage. Just sayin.
12-17-2010 @ 2:55AM
Thats not how MD works... Its a buff that gives you fifteen seconds to deal damage and then counts the first two seconds worth of damage in that fifteen seconds counts as aggro for the tank. So you can, in fact, wait ten seconds before you do anything, because then you would have another five seconds left before MD wears off.And "one multi-shot, one explosive shot, one black arrow and one steady shot" doesn't sound like 30 seconds to me. That sounds more like five seconds to me.
12-17-2010 @ 4:04AM
10 seconds is plenty of time to get rage, if the poster is telling the literal truth. Even counting to 10 is PLENTY of time. I tell people to count to 2 in their head and I'm good.Even though bears are in a pretty bad place right now (Swipe hits like a bear cub, even compared to Tclap and DND) this sounds like a classic case of Bad-us Tank-imus.However, I do want to ask, are you SURE you attacked the tank's target? Since Swipe is so weak, I'm finding I'm having to go back and tab some Lacs and Mangles around to be absolutely sure I have solid threat away from the healer. It's possible that during that ten second wait, the tank had taken a moment to tab around and you just picked a target at the wrong time. This, though, is why a good tank should always come prepared with a quick-mark addon and mark. Take a half second before each pull and at least mark your main target with a Skull. Then there are no questions.
12-17-2010 @ 8:03AM
What is the expectation on abilities like Feign Death and such these days? Back In The Day (tm) it seemed that the hunters I knew treated it as a real emergency 'argh I pulled aggro' thing. In Wrath I would quite often see hunters approaching the tank's threat level, FDing *very* briefly to wipe threat, then continuing to go all out. I have no idea how it works in Cata, not done any instancing yet and I don't play a hunter main.This goes for abilities other classes have to wipe or cut threat of course, like a Warlock's Soul Shatter. Do they reduce all current threat permanently, or only until some internal cooldown is up and then suddenly the lost threat is dumped back onto you?As a tank I worry when people approach me in threat, but have never paid much attention to threat reduction abilities. I assume that people who play those classes know how they work and use them sensibly ;)
12-17-2010 @ 12:38PM
I think one thing that Blizzard can do would be to change the default behavior of the Tab button. Currently it just cycles between the mobs in range/direction. Lots of people just use tab to select their target and dps away. For each person, it always ends up being different targets, and anybody who's done randoms will see the tank on one target, and each dps on their separate targets blasting away. In order to select the Tank's target, either the tank has to mark targets and the dps has to promise to stay on targets (somebody always doesn't), or dps needs to create macros or UI changes (it's not the default) to target or show the tank's target. If Blizzard were to change the Tab button to select the Main Tank's target, it would make it much easier for people to select the "correct" target. If there is no Main Tank specified (solo or small questing group situations) the Tab button would simply do what it does now. If there are multiple Main Tanks (raid situation) it could cycle through the tanks targets. If there is only one Main tank, it would always target what the tank is currently targeting. Shift+Tab, Ctrl+Tab could be the default keybinding to force the current behavior.
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