The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Stat stacking for tanks

One of the things that most Wrath-era tanks learned early was to stack stamina. It was a no-brainer. We were taking massive, massive damage on every boss fight. In the Naxx era, a 30k-health warrior tank was doing decently and could expect to take a 23k hit back to back on certain fights. It only got worse going into Ulduar, then Trial, and finally ICC. Tank health went up, and so too did the amount of damage the tank was expected to soak. Cooldown use became so critical that the time cooldowns took to recharge decreased dramatically. Fights like Sartharion (especially with three drakes up), Mimiron, the Beasts of Northrend and Deathbringer Saurfang (just to name a few) saw tanks being expected to come up with ways to stay alive from monstrous, unavoidable damage. Stamina and armor became two of the most popular means to that end, but armor could only mitigate physical damage, while stamina worked on everything, even the huge magical blasts of damage that ignored armor and all other avoidance or mitigation strategies.
Stamina was king in Wrath.
The more I think about it, though, the more I think that king has been dethroned.
The maimed man cannot be king
It's not that I think stamina has suddenly become a bad stat or that tanks won't want it. It's that I think the new paradigm for healing in Cataclysm means that stacking too much stamina becomes counterproductive. There are two reasons for my thoughts on this matter. The first is the emphasis on making threat and threat statistics matter, and the second is the triage method of healing so often mentioned and emphasized in discussions of healing in this expansion.
Making threat matter means many things. Yesterday's discussion of threat and threat mechanics discussed it in detail, and one of the things mentioned is that threat must be generated. Threat is something you should be working to make happen, not a passive thing. Monsters attack you because you do the right things to get their attention.
If threat generation is too easy then the entire risk of the encounter drops. Newsflash: we don't actually want encounters to be easy. We want encounters to be fun, and for most players, that includes both rewards and risks.
We want tanks to care about the buttons they hit instead of just relying on auto-attacking to control their target. We don't necessarily want very complicated tank DPS rotations, because as I mentioned above, tanks do have other things to keep track of. But we want their combat abilities to be engaging. Good tanks should be those who control, survive, and generate sufficient threat.
One of the things that a good tank does to generate that sufficient threat is to gear for it. There's a reason the two stats most often mentioned as "threat stats" are also DPS stats. We call hit and expertise our threat stats because in order to generate threat -- in order to threaten a mob or boss -- we must hit it. Conceptually, in order to make the things we seek to engage stay focused on us, our attacks must not miss. They must not be dodged. They must not be parried. Every attack you make that is ineffectual does not merely fail to damage your enemy; it fails to make the mob take you seriously as a threat when there are three other people in the room setting it on fire, stabbing it, bludgeoning it or what have you. And it takes a great deal to keep a mob from noticing that his or her attempts to kill you are being foiled by that nice goblin in a kilt over to the side.
In Cataclysm more than ever, tanks are going to need to focus on stats that generate threat, not just hit and expertise. It's not enough that your attacks connect and are not evaded; your attacks have to generate some damage. Yes, Vengeance exists in part to address this issue, but it's not the whole story. As a tank, you should at the very least be considering strength once you are at the 8 percent hit target and around 26 expertise. Crit and haste may be asking too much, considering your defensive needs, but in a world where threat matters (and needs to matter), then you have to gear for it.

Be a hammer crushing your enemies, not a bucket
The difficulty here comes from the same issue our druid cousins have long known about in terms of giant health pools. Sometimes, all that stamina, all that health, just becomes a bigger bucket to dump healer mana into. Consider that a tank starting in heroics in ilevel 333 blues can easily be around 125k to 130k health, and it's not hard at all to be between 140k and 150k health in ilvl359 epics. Generally speaking, bosses are not hitting for 65 to 70k bursts, consistently forcing you to dump all of your most powerful heals in order to keep tanks alive. This isn't Wrath, when the big challenge to healers came in forcing them to drop powerful bombs of healing onto a high-stamina tank target to keep his health full so that the boss didn't one-shot him.
Cataclysm heroics involve a lot more triage, forcing healers to decide if they should heal with a big heal or a small heal and if the tank needs a heal right now or if he or she can wait until the DPS is healed. Damage occurs more by attrition, spread out more among the group and less slammed down on the tank constantly.
The goal, the stated intention of a Cataclysm heroic, is to force the group into a situation in which victory feels like a hard-earned consequence of good choices from tanks, healers and even DPS to lower and minimize how much damage they take as well as raise and maximize how much damage they do. Standing in the fire rather than moving out of it should hurt, maybe even kill you. In this situation, when tanks may go extended periods without a heal, having an extra 10k health isn't nearly as important as not taking the damage that would force a heal and use up healer mana. Dodge, parry and the Critical Block mastery loom larger in such a scenario, because they are mana conservation statistics rather than soak ones that eat damage.
Fast and hard, not slow and ponderous
In short, when gearing your tank, stacking stamina to the exclusion of all else might sound like the best strategy, because as we stated before, stamina works on everything and dodge, parry, block and armor only work on physical damage. But once you've reached a certain sufficiency of stamina that you can stay alive long enough to be healed again, anything else may be overkill. At best, it doesn't really benefit you to have 175k health if you will never be at maximum health and will never take more than 40k health in a single global, as an example. At worst, you're giving healers a big bucket to waste time healing up when other people may actually need the healing more if you're going to survive to kill the boss or handle the trash.
Combining these two changes in paradigm gives us a situation in which you may simply not want to stack stamina. If you need to make sure your threat informs your gearing, gemming and enchanting, while at the same time wanting to focus on avoidance and mitigation in order to avoid as much damage as you possibly can, then stamina perhaps ends up as a detour. In the new, mana-conscious, threat-concerned world of Cataclysm tanking, it may be better to be an aggressive, hard-striking hit-and-run target that's harder to hit than a large, lumbering one that forces the expenditure of resources rather than avoiding the need. With specialization bonuses like Sentinel and with tanking gear having the same stamina as DPS plate anyway, we could be needing to rethink what kind of tanks we need to be.
Filed under: Warrior, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Cataclysm






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Zapwidget Dec 18th 2010 2:14PM
We're basically still looking at the same issues we have been for quite a while. If you tank with the same, or mostly the same, group all the time then you'll know exactly how much threat you need to generate. Once you are able to generate enough threat you then focus on survivability.
Figuring out how much to devote to threat is really the easy part. The trick is in getting the right mix of avoidance and mitigation to save healer mana, and health to absorb what can't be avoided.
mrdragonfell Dec 18th 2010 4:04PM
Two part reply Mr. Rossi. One I think an issue that will arise here is one you have mentioned before and thats perception. While mitigation is awesome and I would love to take advantage of it, when it comes to a raid leader picking who is going to MT and who will OT hes not gonna be looking at your other stats all he can see is stam.
So he goes, "Hey you tank with more stam you MT" because he has been conditioned to belive that a bigger health pool means a better tank! So stacking stam or even having a stam set is the only way a tank can prove their self worth to a raid leader still and it will take a long time before this misconception is over wrote.
The other perspective here is one for me that as a warrior we have cooldowns and as a tauren racials scale with Max hp. Thus the more stam you have the more that enraged regeneration will heal for, the more benefit that 5% max stam it gives you.
So I would percieve that though blizzard has an awesome goal of creating a different ideology for tanks come mid cata we are gonna be stacking stam and aoe bombing heroics again anyway. If that wasn't the case then warriors probably wouldn't have been given a swiss army knife of aoe abilities, i.e. heroic leap, blood and thunder, imp revenge, imp cleave, crit block, TC+Shockwave combo, for real wtf blizz, make me the all mecha god of aoe tanking and tell me I have to CC and control. Mix message much?
Whats more as you stated stam is really the only way to deal with massive incomming spell dmg and a healer that is trained to feel comfortable with a tank at 50% hp is gonna be more comfortable when that is 50% of 200k then when its 50% of 120k.
I want to be a mitigation tank, It seems like its a more inteleigent and stretegic way to play especially with healer mana the way it is today but in the end I belive there are too many background mechanics enforcing stam as king to allow us that freedom.
Thank you Mr. Rossi for your excellent post and perspectives I am honored to share the same class and to have you at the helm of one of the greatest resources for warrior/tank theory crafting in the history of wow and gamming. Happy Hollidays!
Tom Dec 18th 2010 4:15PM
"It seems like its a more inteleigent and stretegic way to play"
Angus Dec 18th 2010 4:19PM
"The other perspective here is one for me that as a warrior we have cooldowns and as a tauren racials scale with Max hp. Thus the more stam you have the more that enraged regeneration will heal for, the more benefit that 5% max stam it gives you. "
Re-read the tauren racial.
Base health increased by 5%.
http://www.wowpedia.org/Racial_trait#Tauren
It doesn't get a benefit at all from gear.
Tom Dec 18th 2010 4:21PM
... damn enter button.
So, if a raid leader says "u have moar HP you MT", my advice is to stop being in horrible raids.
All tanks have AoE tools, and some of those abilities and talents are pretty dang awesome. That in no way invalidates the benefit of using crowd control.
Finally, speaking as a healer, I'm WAY more comfortable with a tank whose health doesn't fluctuate much than I am with a tank whose health is constantly falling.
Pyromelter Dec 18th 2010 8:40PM
I'm not up on how much magic damage bosses are doing, but in wrath, it became imperative to stack mitigation more than anything, for most fights. The main exception was Sindragosa, where frost resist and stam were more important. I still remember a raid back in early 2010 when on of our tanks had around 45k health, and the other had 60k health. I wasn't a healer, but I remember looking at the raid frames. The guy with 45k health had stacked every single armor piece he could, and gemmed agil/stam in red sockets for the armor/dodge bonus from agility. He almost never dipped below 75%, where the 60k health guy was constantly dipping below 50%.
To that end, it seems as though mastery, for all tanks, might become the most important stat on non-sindragosa type fights. Especially since, if I'm reading how mastery works, there won't be any diminishing returns on mastery as there would be for dodge and parry. For warriors, their mastery will likely make them the most powerful add tank, with the massive amount of physical mitigation you will get from your mastery.
I feel that, except for the occasional magic-heavy damage fight, we're going to see a lot of mastery, or mastery/stam type situations in terms of gemming, and possibly even prioritizing mastery on gear over dodge and parry.
The really neat thing about this is that no one has been able to come out and say "This is exactly how you HAVE to do it, this is the BEST way to do it." Which is really cool for tanks, because at least right now, you aren't locked into doing any specific gearing. You can play around with your gear and see what works best for you, and it's kind of fun to try different things and play around with what works for you.
Sleutel Dec 19th 2010 2:15AM
@Pyromelter:
"I'm not up on how much magic damage bosses are doing, but in wrath, it became imperative to stack mitigation more than anything, for most fights."
No, it was important to stack EH--effective health--which was a combination of Stamina and Armor, because that was gave you the maximum time to live in a situation with infinite healer mana. And that's because Armor was much better in Wrath, prior to when they ripped the knees out of bonus armor on gear. (IIRC, my total Armor now at 85 in a combo of 333 blues, 346 blues, and whatevertheyare epics, is actually LESS than it was in my MaxArmor set before bonus armor was slashed in Wrath.)
And on Sindragosa, you STILL needed a ton of Armor, because despite the massive incoming magic damage, she also hit like a truck. You just wouldn't do something like equip an Armor trinket instead of a Stam one like you would for an all-physical boss like Saurfang.
Mssr Moo Goo 2 Dec 20th 2010 2:18AM
Avoidance (Dodge, Parry) and Mitigation (Block, Savage Defence) have always been better for 5 heroics.
Stamina is better when the boss does enough damage to require it (Raids).
If you are geared enough for raids though, you probly don't need a special set for 5 mans. So everyone just stuck with stam gear. Until ToGC 25 actually needed block value and tanks had fun building up a block set.
~~ If your running heroics, OF COURSE stack avoidance/mitigation. If your doing HARDCORE PROGRESSION RAIDING then stamina MIGHT let you survive a worst possible case death scenario. ~~ That is all.
james_reed Dec 20th 2010 11:11AM
Angus, take your own advice, that's base health, not health overall, thats health with no gear.
wow Dec 18th 2010 2:19PM
All this talk and not a single mention of mana sponge? :(
This is a tricky topic, that is for sure, there's been a lot of discussion around this, and a fair bit of theory crafting, but there's no clear cut answer yet as to avoidance vs mitigation vs stamina yet. I think avoidance will be a LOT more important this expansion, but I doubt it will de-throne stamina, especially in raids.
The main point is, don't try to judge what will be valuable in a raid situation based of heroics.
The main problem I can see, is that as soon as we hit a large magical source, eg a dragons flame breath (I hear this expansion might have a few of those) that dodge etc becomes almost pointless. Granted some mitigation methods might still be useful, druid and DK come to mind.
Also, as a FYI, high end tanks in wotlk couldn't ignore threat stats and in most cases would gem for it (eg dodge + expertise/hit, not straight out threat stats). Being threat capped sucked.
wow Dec 18th 2010 2:21PM
Oh, and atm for the most part, threat seems to be "ok". Some classes (druid come to mind) seem to be a bit under-tuned in terms of threat though.
Once we get to tier 3/4 of this expansion it'll probably come back into prominence.
Vogie Dec 18th 2010 3:26PM
The Great Bearded One used the term "Bucket" instead of "mana sponge".
Second verse, same as the first...
taylorpvincent Dec 18th 2010 2:38PM
The healer changes to mana are trickling down to you tanks. As a healer, I could have told you to start working on avoidance from the moment Cata launched and mana pools shot up. With the mana situation where it is, the number of tanks I still see stam-gemmed is depressing. You don't need 170k health for dungeons and early heroics, you need the ability for your health bar to not be carved through like butter.
(gasp) Could stamina possibly be dethroned?
YES.
gewalt Dec 18th 2010 3:39PM
TTL graphs still show stam gems as more effective than avoidance gems. that said, its the socket bonuses that make gemming avoidance worthwhile.
and yes, we do need 170k hp pools. Its there so you don't have to keep us topped off all the time. if I don't need a full big heal, then you don't need to heal me yet. Stand there and regen for a bit.
Finnicks Dec 18th 2010 3:47PM
What good is it, Tanks, if you have 175k health and are taking 40k hits at at time to stack Stamina? You live for 1 extra second from your stacked stamina.
But guess what? You still die.
Why?
Because my healing output is limited. As a druid, I can (at best) pump out around 20k healing per second. That's with a full stack of Lifeblooms, a Rejuvenate, and spamming Healing Touch.
If you're taking 40k hits, your stacked stamina won't mean anything when I can't keep up with the incoming damage (and eventually go oom, even if I can). You need to avoid a good chunk of the incoming damage. Especially if you expect me to be able to devote any time to healing the party. Or myself.
So give up the stamina stacking. A good technique is to just work toward set bonuses. Yellow? Stamina/Dodge (or pure Dodge). Red? Stamina/Parry (or just Parry, or even expertise!). Blue? Ok, fine, stick some Stamina in there (or maybe, *gasp*, some +hit!).
Stilhelm Dec 18th 2010 5:25PM
The precious TTL is generally time to live *without heals*. It is important, to be sure. However, in a world where mana matters, every bit of damage mitigated or avoided is mana the healer doesn't have to spend *now*, which means later on, the healer will have mana to heal you and your TTL won't matter so much anyway.
TTL is only one part of a big picture. If you make it the whole picture, don't be surprised when the parts of the picture you didn't look at (healer mana expenditure over the long term) come back to bite you at toward the end of the fight.
Eberron Dec 18th 2010 6:17PM
Will Stamina be dethroned?
No, it's too applicable to everything while the other options are too good.
Long and short of it? Don't neglect avoidance in favor of pure stamina. Keep some avoidance/mastery trinkets for fights that favor avoidance over EH.
I still suspect that while my druid may pick up the odd socket bonus that's especially relevent to my survival, I'll still prefer to stack stamina. However being able to swap out a couple of trinkets and pick up an extra 700-800 agility overall is an extremely valuable trick. Especially for fights which have an avoidance-friendly mechanic like Ripsnarl.
Pyromelter Dec 18th 2010 8:39PM
Finnicks, it depends on the fight though. This is why tanks generally carry around multiple sets of gear:
1. Pure stamina. This is for unavoidable magic damage fights (think sindragos)
2. Pure mitigation. This would be for physical damage heavy fights. Think Festergut.
3. Block/Dodge. For add-heavy tanking. Generally warriors would have a block set, for something like Anub'arak in TOC, or tanking the adds on Lich King.
Avoidance isn't going to jack-crap when you are getting blasted by 40k spells smashing you in the face. Also, stamina helps when first learning encounters, simply because of the "TTL" scenarios. Finally, every tank has their own self-healing abilities. Blood craze, for example, scales with total health, and therefore would be more effective at higher levels. Same with Death Knight's rune tap. Field dressing and Impending Victory also scale with total health. The more stam you have, the better those abilities are.
So that's a big thing with stacking stam: Self-healing abilities scale exceptionally well with them. One must consider those abilities when deciding what stats to build upon in your sets.
SR Dec 20th 2010 8:09AM
I think you guys are talking as if tanks stacking stamina has absolutely ZERO mitigation stats like dodge, parry, block and crit block.
Last time I checked, warriors get at least 30% block with more coming from strength and some in a form of mastery. Death Knights get parry from strength, and druids get lots of dodge (Still) from agility that's present on gear. Pallies? I haven't looked into it yet. I'll get back to it later.
Pretty much all of the numbers I've seen used in anti-stamina arguments act as if the tank was taking 100% of the boss's damage 100% of the time.
While stamina isn't as efficient as it was in Wrath, it definitely isn't as bad as some of you make it sound. No matter the healing mechanic, it STILL functions as a damage sponge tool. While some people say the "buckets" are playing this Health Rollercoaster, a tank with as much health as a DPS with... say 30% more overall avoidance... isn't going to be very healer-friendly anyways, after getting a hit that brings him to 60% of his health, then another for 20%. That's how Wrath tanking was, and seeing as overhealing isn't a problem due to wonky healing mechanics, having a buffer is still a bonus.
Not to mention, stamina goes hand-in-hand with the almighty tank-threat buff of Vengeance. As of now, 1 stamina is a direct counterpart to 1 attack power.
I don't know... I really can't see a clear reason in why people are trying to rip Stamina's throat off. While the article wasn't condemning stamina by a large margin, the comments make me very sad.
Pyroneil Dec 18th 2010 2:47PM
The idea that dodge/parry etc. are useless if you get hit with magic is nonsense in this expansion. As I healer, one of the very interesting things about cataclysm is that I can just about anyone through anything. I can heal a mage tanking a couple mobs in heroics, I just blow through my entire mana pool in about 5 seconds. So unless a boss is using exclusively magic attacks, if you dodge every physical attack leading up to the big magical attack, and then every one after, I won't have any issue healing you through stupid magic damage. Now my main experience has been with heroics granted, but I know we aren't going to see two shotting magic attacks in raid with any sort of regularity because it would impossible to heal for any length of time.