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1-02-2011 @ 4:14PM
"Some speculate that Lilian Voss would be an ideal person to lead the Forsaken, should something happen to Sylvanas Windrunner. But what they fail to realize is that Lilian would never fully ally herself with the Forsaken; to her, she is outside of life, outside of death, and utterly alone. Lilian isn't quite sane; her steadfast pursuit of the Scarlet Crusade borders on insanity, and her life in undeath is dedicated to other, more pressing tasks."I disagree. Sure, right now she couldn't be the leader, but with a little more characterization, I think she could be a great replacement. With the way Blizzard is making Sylvanas into "The Lich Queen", I wouldn't be surprised at all if we end up having to kill her.
1-02-2011 @ 5:51PM
"With the way Blizzard is making Sylvanas into 'The Lich Queen', I wouldn't be surprised at all if we end up having to kill her."You either didn't play through the undead quests, or you did it with your eyes closed. ("What we see depends mainly on what we look for," perhaps?) It's patently obvious that they still consider Sylvanas one of the "good guys" to as great an extent as anyone in this morally grey universe. Blizzard is not making Sylvanas into 'The Lich Queen', not by a long shot. That's player misunderstanding and propaganda, although they do make it clear that a lot of people will see her that way. Indeed, that others will judge you unfairly is one of the main themes stressed in the very intro movie for new Forsaken characters.
1-02-2011 @ 7:18PM
@ArtificialTo saying that people are playing with their eyes closed, I can only respond with a quote from an Undead at Plaguewood Tower in EPL, which is much further along in the content than the starting zones:"I once worked for the so-called "Banshee-Queen", Sylvanas, as an apothecary. I used to admire her, but something's changed within her. She's not herself anymore.I broke my vows with the Forsaken and joined the Crusade. Now, I use my knowledge of alchemy to seek a counter-plague agent. And the Plaguewood is the perfect place to do so."Apparently, even some Forsaken are starting to see that Sylvanas is not a 'good guy' anymore. He's joined the Argent Crusade and is trying to defeat the very plague that Sylvanas is using all over the place. I'd say this is a pretty severe hint that Blizzard does NOT consider Sylvanas to still be on the side of the greater good. And honestly, after what she does to Koltira, who is a pretty beloved character, I don't see how anyone could say that Blizzard ISN'T putting her on the evil path.
1-02-2011 @ 8:22PM
@Artificial: While true I haven't done the Tirisfal Glades/Silverpine quests, I have done the SFK quests. The ones where the Forsaken are blatantly ignoring orders, lying to fellow Hordies about what they're doing, and Plaguing everything that moves. Under Sylvanas' orders.She's pretty clearly cut the ties she used to have with the Horde in everything but name only. She hasn't openly gone rogue, just effectively.Kael'thas started out the same way. One of the good guys. Then started making morally questionable choices. Kept doing "ends justify the means" actions. Look where he ended up.
1-02-2011 @ 9:00PM
Artificial, you must be playing a different game than me, or are an apologist to the extreme. She is definitely becoming more and more psychotic the further along she gets.
1-02-2011 @ 9:43PM
Hmm, an apothecary huh? I'm sure if I was working on an anti-plague within that organization, I'm pretty sure I'd have been told to stop and to start working on important things, like the plague. I'm pretty sure I would have been strongly encouraged not to bother. I would even bet a dollar that I would be given the impression this came all the way from the top. If I was misguided into thinking Sylvanas represented that top, whether this is true or not true, I would have probably had the same reaction that she must have changed.Heck, even the Apothecaries that did know probably felt she changed if she didn't want to make this plague.My point is: regardless of if Sylvanas knew and endorsed the development of the plague, or whether she is as "human" as she constantly remembers being and did not want the plague to go this far and it really did develop without her knowledge. Regardless of any of that, if I was an apothecary working on an anti-plague, I would likely be squeezed out of the organization and develop that exact sentiment.I'm not saying this to be an apologist. I am curious where Blizzard takes this because she is making morally questionable judgments the way Kael'Thalas did. She is using methods the Lich King used. She is going down a path that likely leads to evil. I'm just saying this is a poor example of Blizzard stating she must be ev0l because regardless of truth, events played out to make her look like she changed and I would have joined the Crusade as I continue my efforts.The really sad part in all of this is that she seems to just want to be accepted as a true member of ...anything. It's something npc Forsaken have never experienced. For all her vengeance, she did little in Northrend. Nobody trusts her or asks her to do anything. It's very possible for everything about the Wrathgate to actually be true as presented because she was likely that far out of the loop. So now she wants to take control and the only thing she's allowed to do is expand her territory and she isn't even left alone and trusted to do that.
1-02-2011 @ 9:58PM
I don't think its fair to say Sylvanas the Banshee Queen has ever been a "good" character, but I don't think Blizz is turning her into the next Kael and setting her up to die in 4.2.We all like to point out the couple Forsaken who disagree with what Sylvanas is doing (and are allowed to, meaning she isn't LK-mind-controlling anyone), but the fact is the vast majority of Forsaken support her. Forsaken who are of their own free will and mind are fighting and dying for her in Gilneas and Hillsbrad and Arathi, something they wouldn't do if they didn't support her. Characters like Argent Dawn Forsaken or the Apothecary that uses grenades are there to highlight the free will of the Forsaken and to show that they aren't all of a single mind and purpose, just like any other faction. There were a handful of Forsaken who left Sylvanas pre-Cata, there are some now, this isn't all that new.I think if you're an average Forsaken right now, she's probably in the best position she's ever been in. She's beaten the Lich King, she's solved the issue of procreation, and she's quite successful militarily in this expansion. And if she gets killed what will happen to the Forsaken? And who is to say her replacement would be any less "evil" than she is?I'm going to agree (inc downvote) with Artificial and say she's pretty morally gray, though I won't go as far to say she's a "good" character (though who, save for Thrall maybe, is?). I see a genuine concern for the welfare of her people in a world that despises them, tangled and muddled by an enormous amount of power and morally ambiguous decisions and often no real reward for taking the high road. I think what she did to Koltira was evil and unnecessary, but I also think that most of Silverpine shows she's not a mindless killing machine and being set up for raid boss status. I wouldn't kill her, I can tell you that.
1-03-2011 @ 12:28AM
@Hih: If you'd done those quests, it would help put what you see in SFK into context. She clearly doesn't respect Garrosh, and has no intention of followed his orders when she believes she knows better. But you're trying to read far more into it than that, and that only seems reasonable when you lack that context.
1-03-2011 @ 1:11AM
@Pyromelter: Indeed. I'm playing the game that includes quests like this:http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27098Do you have any links to the game you're playing, where quest text clearly indicates psychosis on her part (rather than ruthlessness you don't just agree with)? Or is that game only in your own mind?I'm not claiming she's nice. Not by a long shot. But psychotic? Really? Please, provide the links, if you have them. You're right, I haven't seen that game, they don't appear to be in the one I'm playing, but perhaps I missed them. I'd love to see the links if they exist.
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