Blizzard working on ways to improve dungeon finder
by Matthew Rossi 
Jan 5th 2011 at 1:00PM
Zarhym - Dungeon queue should be performance-basedWe would love to implement better ways for Dungeon Finder to detect if players know what they're doing in dungeons beyond just the gear they've accumulated. We have some long-term design goals in mind for this we're not quite prepared to share this early on though. ;)
What was more interesting was the idea that Blizzard wants to improve the educational aspect of the service, however. With the current vote kick system, often players who are forced out of a group may have no idea why they failed, especially when they are new to the game.
Zarhym - Dungeon queue should be performance-basedSort of. One flaw with the current system, is if players fail in a pick-up group, they aren't told why they failed. People then tend to play the blame game, often directing malice at the healer(s).
So while I'm speaking more about class roles, I think the idea still lends itself to your question. It'd be helpful to get more information than just through trial and error. Groups could benefit if they knew they didn't wipe because the healer didn't manage mana well enough, but because the DPS wasn't high enough, or boss adds weren't properly rounded up, etc.
I recently did a pickup group in which the tank absolutely refused to use CC, despite several pulls that resulted in his near death and running the healer absolutely out of mana each time. I tried to explain, of course, but it ended up a lost cause, and I ultimately decided to leave. It would be nice if there were some way for the game to tell people what they often refuse to hear from other players.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, News items, Cataclysm
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 10)
Collected Jan 5th 2011 1:03PM
So they're planning on giving players the reason they wiped? Interesting.
kingoomieiii Jan 5th 2011 1:25PM
It's already pretty easy to tell if you have Recount Death Tracker or stock Skada. Look for the tank death (if that's what happened), and see what killed them. Five seconds of boss hits without a heal? Shatter? Hmmm.
Scooter Jan 5th 2011 1:26PM
If they are going to go with that then I'd rather see some sort of rating/reward system wherein the players get more or less points/gold for meeting certain benchmarks during the run. Actions like breaking cc, not using CC, Survival time, DPS, HPS, Damage Mitigated, Drawing Agro, Damage taken from drawing Agro. etc should be part of the consideration.
People like rating systems. Especially when they come with rewards.
wutsconflag Jan 5th 2011 1:48PM
I'd love to see them make it more restrictive in the gear it considers for whether you are able to queue or not. It should only consider the gear you have actively equipped, and some consideration should be given that it's the appropriate armor type (IE: tanks shouldn't be able to queue wearing cloth, and NO ONE should be able to queue based on gear in their bags).
Stoop Jan 5th 2011 1:49PM
@scooter
I'd love to see something like that.
"Flawless Instance Run! Lootality!"
yunkndatwunk Jan 5th 2011 1:49PM
I think it might be more something like, when you vote kick someone, you pick a reason why from a dropdown, then the person can see the reasons chosen.
But that will not stop abuse, but they are not talking about stopping abuse in the blue quotes above, but legitimate kicks.
Trying to determine it automatically would be incredibly difficult, though I suppose if they had people chose a reason from a dropdown, and run some Bayesian algorithms on the instance run data along with the reasons the players chose then after several thousand runs of the instance the algorithm might have a good chance of predicting what would happen (if it also knew what was said over voice chat).
But if they could do that, they would be using the technology to tune everything.
Whitecatsjogging Jan 5th 2011 2:24PM
The problem will still be the ppl that go into a group of 3 or 4. They could always lie to the reason to kick. Like saying someone doesn't know how to heal when the issue was facepulling and no cc which was the cause of deaths due to a healer being oom trying to keep ppl alive.
Sicadastra Jan 5th 2011 2:26PM
This assumes people are being kicked because they didn't know what to do but still have the capacity to learn. I don't kick people if that's the case... I kick people who are jerks. It kind of bothers me that we're looking for automated solutions to help people improve after they've been kicked rather than attempting human interaction before kicking them.
As for the original comment, I'd like to see some sort of verbatim tutorial for group skills in the game. Explain things like CC or personal damage mitigation. The current tutorials are all based around basic game functions rather than skill building. There are quests which try to teach certain skills, but they aren't labeled as such. When a player hits various levels, have a new tutorial pop-up saying something like "would you like to participate in a tutorial on crowd control?" If the player says yes, port them into some sort of phased training zone with a quest giver who walks them through a detailed, interactive, and repeatable demonstration of the skill. Help, give em a reward if they can perform the skill well.
Most single player games have this sort of thing, in a social game like wow its even more crucial.
Architect Jan 5th 2011 3:30PM
In Redridge and again in the assault on the entrance to Grim Batol in Twilight Highlands, you are assigned to a squad of 5 NPCs and given specific missions to fulfill. In essence, you "join" a party of npcs.
I'd like to see this expanded, so that the player is assigned to a party of NPCs that is sent into a small dungeon. The NPC's rely on you to fulfill your role correctly. As DPS, you must CC your target, you can't break other's sheep, you must assist the tank correctly, etc. If you don't, your npc squadmates will rez you. Then they'll tell you exactly what you did wrong, without any recrimination and drama, and you get to try again.
Before you can queue in the dungeon finder for a particular level range, you might need to complete this "Boot Camp" quest.
DoubleCrit Jan 5th 2011 3:50PM
If the person getting kicked does not know why they got kicked. Then perhaps they are in fact a bad player. I do mean that in the nicest way possible. If they don't understand why they got kicked then maybe they don't understand how to research their role, research the encounter, not stand in fire and enchant their gear. Now if the person has done everything to keep from being a bad player and still gets kicked. Then the group is bad and you are better off not in their bad group.
Xandee Jan 5th 2011 4:09PM
Find a good guild and pugs will fade from your memory! :) And YES I know finding one not filled with people discussing poop is sometimes difficult. However, there are many guilds like mine on Stormreaver that try and maintain a mature yet childlike atmosphere.
Noyou Jan 5th 2011 4:09PM
I'm all for a rating system as long as the highest rating goes towards the most tolerant players or those willing to instruct. Like it or not WoW is a social game. Dungeon finder is not so much broke as are the majority of people who use it.
Maribel Jan 5th 2011 4:16PM
@ Sicadastra: "This assumes people are being kicked because they didn't know what to do but still have the capacity to learn. I don't kick people if that's the case... I kick people who are jerks. It kind of bothers me that we're looking for automated solutions to help people improve after they've been kicked rather than attempting human interaction before kicking them.:"
Ideally, yeah, we kick jerks, not players who are capable of improving. But think about the lowest common denominator. Sometimes the jerks are the majority. In one memorably awful run I had as a lowbie, the tank, first healer, and one dps were dripping with heirlooms. Then there was my hunter, on a new server and heirloom-less, and a feral druid, who was level 18 and a new player.
This was pre-4.0.3, so the druid, at 18, only had bear form. He wouldn't get cat form for two more levels. When he switched to bear form for an early pull, the warrior tank was offended and ordered him to go cat form. The druid became obsessed with porting out to visit a trainer in case he'd missed cat form. I assured him he hadn't, he was just two levels off from it. With the tank yelling at him when he went bear, he was stuck spamming Wrath and Moonfire, so he started rolling on caster stuff, which got him yelled at as well. He started needing everything just out of spite; I tried to explain to him about ninja-ing, and he explained that he knew he shouldn't, but he didn't face any real consequences for it, and he was mad at these assholes. Hard to blame him.
They tried to kick him. The first healer had left the group, and the new one didn't know what was going on, so between my vote and his the druid stayed. If he'd been kicked, an automated system to help him improve would do more good than "80% of WoW players in instances are jerks who hate me for no apparent reason," which is the lesson I assume he took away from the run as it stood.
Scooter Jan 5th 2011 4:34PM
@Sicadastra
Most jerks aren't that way because they don't know how to play the class. It's a personality issue. Some people view the computer screen as protection from any retribution for their bad actions. A Tutorial to class mechanics is a great idea because it teaches people how to play not how they should act. Imposing a penalty/reward system is a neutral way of encouraging better conduct and improving oneself. A Jerk or a moocher might think twice about their actions if they are booted and loose gold or points instead of gaining them.
The system would have to be well thought out and have some means of thoughtful decision making on the act of the booter's. Abuse of tools should have much stronger penalties than the use of them.
Xaklo Jan 5th 2011 5:03PM
@Wutsconflag. But if that were the case, then my mage would not have gotten into any dungeons until lvl 83, when I finally obtained class-relevant trinkets for both my slots. I leveled up to 80 throughout wrath, but did not work on his gear through wrath heroics/raids so ended up continuing to level with heirloom items in cata; if not for the agil/stam trinks in my bags, my ilvl1 heirloom trinkets would have prevented me from entering any dungeon at the beginning of my questing D:
waz Jan 6th 2011 3:09AM
@ Scooter
"Actions like breaking cc, not using CC, Survival time, DPS, HPS, Damage Mitigated, Drawing Agro, Damage taken from drawing Agro. etc should be part of the consideration."
Tanks will be downrated to the ground for few of those points :P
Legund Jan 6th 2011 7:31AM
Well its not just the healers who get blamed =/.If your class is CC like my hunter then when other DPS break your spell with an AOE,they also play the Blame game on that DPS and kick him instead of admitting that they need to stop AOEing so close to the CCed trash or mobs.
Bluriel Jan 6th 2011 7:31AM
@wut:
So I cannot wear lower level hit gear when questing on my priestess OR do the fishing daily (not only I equip the fishing pole but also the hat ;) ) while waiting in the queue?
Zippö Jan 5th 2011 1:05PM
oh yes, dream come true :DD
AudreyR Jan 5th 2011 1:06PM
"Before you enter the dungeon, please type in a complete sentence."
That wouldn't catch them all, but it would be a start.