Ghostcrawler responds to heroic dungeon difficulty complaints

Like I said, it's an epic post, and we won't reprint the whole thing here. This, however, is the key takeaway:
The bottom line is that we want Heroics and raids to be challenging, and that is particularly true now while the content is new and characters are still collecting gear. They're only going to get easier from here on out. We want players to approach an encounter, especially a Heroic encounter, as a puzzle to be solved. We want groups to communicate and strategize. And by extension, we want you to celebrate when you win instead of it being a foregone conclusion.
On the other hand, we don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they're doing. We don't want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players. While at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.
Ultimately, we don't want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success, because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategize.
On the other hand, we don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they're doing. We don't want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players. While at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.
Ultimately, we don't want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success, because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategize.
All that being said, though, is Blizzard really satisfied with its dungeon designs and their current level of difficulty? Hard heroics are indeed hard, but the updated PTR patch notes for 4.0.6 (which went live just yesterday at almost the exact same time Ghostcrawler was discussing heroics) indicate that a series of nerfs is coming our way. That will no doubt lead to player rejoicing, but remember -- heroics are naturally getting easier as people get more familiar with them and players continue to compile better gear, which makes completion even easier still.
When patch 4.0.6 goes live (presumably in a couple of weeks), Baron Ashbury will no longer cast Mend Rotten Flesh. Beauty will lose one of her puppies, the poor thing. Every single boss fight in the Stonecore (IMO, the most dreaded of all the heroics) will be nerfed -- Corborus will jump less, High Priestess Azil's adds will die more easily, and Slabhide will drop fewer rocks upon your collective heads. Admittedly, some of these fights were clearly in need of a fix -- Ashbury is a nightmare with some group compositions. Still, it's an interesting mixed message: "Heroics are supposed to be hard, but in patch 4.0.6, we're making them significantly easier."
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 9)
Ben Jan 12th 2011 5:06PM
"As always, we're keeping an eye on things. There are a few bosses that seem responsible for more wipes than the others: Commander Springvale, Beauty, Altairus, and Admiral Ripsnarl perhaps. By the time you read this, you might have seen us implement Restoration druid buffs intended to keep them competitive in raids. We also just tend to nerf content over time because the original players hitting that content have moved on, so we want to open it up to a wider audience."
I think the last point is a good one. We've all had a chance to succeed or fail at the heroics, and now they'll nerf em a bit so more people can see it. Right now I'm more focused on working through raids, and don't want to also have to worry about hourlong daily heroics just to get a few extra VP (though my guild runs have been pretty smooth recently).
Ilmyrn Jan 12th 2011 5:26PM
It's a great point. I just hope it's countered by new heroics as old ones are nerfed. BC had, I believe, one new five man added over the course of its life, and Wrath had, what, four new heroics introduced over its lifetime, all but one of them in the final content patch?
What I'm saying is that I enjoy heroics, and I'm loving the challenge level they're at right now. I'm not really looking forward to having them be facerollable with no new five man challenges. Old content should be opened up to a wider audience. I just hope that opening comes with new content as well.
Oriflame Jan 12th 2011 5:48PM
I've always been one who loved seeing older *normal* modes nerffed so that I could see them if I wasn't playing hardcore at the time. Once they've been out for a while, its a good plan.
But I'm also a huge fan of hard heroic modes - especially in 5 mans. Putting a ten man group together and clearing up to 10 bosses in wrath just to do your hard progression boss was a real drag.
MichaelBerean Jan 12th 2011 6:48PM
Just an hour for a guild heroic 5 man run? Is that normal? I seriously consider it a win if it takes less than 2.
Poltergeist Jan 12th 2011 9:33PM
I'm not knocking any guild run that takes 2 hours to complete, but my guild runs don't take more than an hour for any heroic. We use vent to speed up communication. We are far from hardcore. In fact, none of us have set foot in any Cata raids yet.
Matt Jan 12th 2011 10:59PM
I do a daily random every day, rarely with guildies. At the start of every dungeon, I speak with the players in my group, and make sure everyone understands what marks to CC. We let the tank pull trash, and before every boss fight, I ask if anyone needs an explanation. Finally, I don't insult or complain about any member - regardless of if they deserve it.
My randoms usually take no longer than an hour, and often more around 30 minutes. That's all it really takes to get a run working well. These dungeons aren't "hard", they just require players to pay attention and maintain moral - as a good challenge should.
Silencerer Jan 12th 2011 5:07PM
The heroics are fine. I love the challenge but now in raid gear they are a joke. The people QQ'ing are mostly the casuals who always get it their way. Make raids easier ok. Make 25 and 10 man drop same loot ok. Just makes the game way to easy and not even fun ok.
Austin Jan 12th 2011 5:35PM
In all fairness, saying Cataclysm heroics are easy in raid gear is like saying differential calculus is easy with a supercomputer.
Silencerer Jan 12th 2011 5:59PM
In all fairness I didn't say "full" raid gear. Plus all math test I have taken I have to show my work(which I hate). :/ But my first post got down voted but oh well. I can tell alot of casuals read here and not many hardcore players. I don't mean raid 7 days a week 12 hours a day, Because i only raid 9 hours a week. I just don't like easy stuff. I like to work for my reward, and that's exactly how heroics are but will not always stay once you get gear. Some might be complaining about pugs. Me I'm a DPS and i sit through the queue's and get apparantly amazing groups. All my pugs finish it and with hardly any problem..
VSUReaper Jan 12th 2011 6:04PM
Yes, heroics are fun.
Yes, heroics are challenging (unless you completely outgear them)
No, heroics can not always be completed unless you have certain elements that you cant always plan for.
Unless Blizzard decided to give EVERY class a 9 second or less cd interupt (kick/shield bash) and a viable CC (hex/poly/sap), some of the heroics are downright brutal, and at times 100% impossible.
On more than one occasion, I have zoned into SFK with me being the only interupt other than the holy paladin's HOJ (long cd). As a warrior, that means I can get 2 of the 3 abilities that needs to be interupted, and if the timing is bad, the boss practically resets. This is not fun, and just makes everyone involved not want to run instances. LFG screwed the group.
Ever zone into a 5 man with no viable CC? I have, on several occasions.
Disc Priest**
Prot warrior
Frost DK
Arms warrior**
Fury warrior**
(** from the same server) The LFG tool gave us NO cc at all other than the 4 second stun the arms warrior could do or the 6 second fear that the warriors could do, but would break on damage.
We made it thru 3 pulls before the group fell apart, b/c it was absolutely brutal.
LFG screwed the group.
Some of those heroics were over-tuned, and some were undertuned. I think what Blizzard did was the right thing. Putting an animtion in for an aoe effect isnt a nerf. Making adds die faster isnt really a nerf. Taking a third ability out that needed to be interupted on a fight, was not a nerf. Its not like you can run in and AOE tank 20 mobs like we used to.
It just means that more people will be able to enjoy the run b/c they will actually be able to complete the fight, and those people that are putting on PVP gear to cheese the GS built into the game are still going to fail at the fights.
Blizz did the right thing. Now if they could just fix the raids where melee are not a liabilty (go read the comments from Paragon concerning melee sitting out in order for the guild to get fights completed if you dont understand it).
Silencerer Jan 12th 2011 6:34PM
You actually had 2 more CC's then you mentioned I believe.
Priest fear when glyped is down right amazing for CC.
As well has the DKs freezing ability hungering cold?
Even though they are not awesome CC's they are AoE CC's and will do gret things for the group.
Silencerer Jan 12th 2011 6:37PM
And yes i know what paragon did. i believe all but 2 of their melee sat out for caster/caster alts. But that's because of one ability on a heroic raid boss enounter that is or was nerfed i believe? Melee have always had it bad in raids. Raids jsut favor range over melee which really really sucks, but you have to have melee.
iwubyou Jan 12th 2011 7:18PM
"The people QQ'ing are mostly the casuals who always get it their way."
This is QQ.
lazymangaka Jan 12th 2011 7:42PM
I'm pretty sure that "casuals" rarely take the time to read World of Warcraft sites, and most of all certainly don't take the time to down rate posts they don't like.
Xaklo Jan 12th 2011 8:35PM
@Silencer, do you ever stop to think that being a Casual is not a birth defect or something that somehow makes said person a bad player? Given the choice, I'd be a more harcore player than I am right now, but alas I do not have that choice. Sometimes being a casual is simply not having the time that hardcore players seem to have to play this game, as such I don't have time to get with a guild and run raids 4 days a week to get the gear to be able to get through heroic dungeons in less than an hour. I'm left with grouping up with any pugs I can find and try my best to finish even one heroic a day if I'm lucky.
I have no problem at all with the difficulty of heroics right now, but what I do have a problem with is that if I don't get grouped with players who know what they're doing, I'm essentially wasting my time in there. And if I (as many casuals feel, I'm sure) am cut off from being able to complete heroics [and to that extent anything harder, i.e raids] then what else is there to do in this game? Yes Wrath made raids super easy that more and more casuals started doing them, which resulted in hardcore player backlash because they weren't being challenged. Blizzard fixed this in Cata by increasing difficulty across the board. I don't care to raid right now, I simply don't have the time for it, but heroics used to be at least the territory where casuals could get their fix, and now there's no place for us.
I think what blizzard needs to do is just to increase the gear gap and difficulty between heroic dungeons and raids, if only to boldly demonstrate that raids ARE, in fact, Hardmode. This way, hardcore players feel challenged, and casuals know where they stand and don't feel as left out of content.
jfofla Jan 12th 2011 10:09PM
@Silencerer
I downgraded you for using the term "are a joke".
Overused derisive term.
N-train Jan 12th 2011 10:09PM
@ Xalko
I agree with everything you said, except the last part.
Why can't hardmodes of raids be the hardmodes, though? This is my biggest issue with Cata heroics being long and difficult. I thought the point of making raiding more accessible in Wrath was to not only enrich and expand gaming options for casual players, but to ensure that people who had the drive and skills could see this wonderful content Blizz spent so much time on. Raids *were* hardmodes for two whole expansions, and Wrath, to its credit, ended that.
Heroics and Raids were too easy for the most part in Wrath and Blizz dropped the ball on some hardmodes in 3.2 and 3.3, I get it, but why does this whole difficulty thing have to be a all-or-nothing deal? Why can't people who don't have a ton of time to raid still raid when they can, and those who can afford to spend more time have their hardmodes?
My guild is small and casual, we raid one night and (sometimes) one afternoon a week. But we were able to finish Ulduar, TOTC, and ICC on our time and on our own terms, barely getting LK before 4.0.1. We made very limited attempts at hardmodes because we understood that they weren't for us, and we were just fine with it *because we got to raid anyway*. Our slow, casual, progression shouldn't and didn't impede any hardcore guilds from doing their hardmodes.
None of us mind that Cata heroics are hard and require significant coordination and skill, but at the same time Cata heroics may prevent us from raiding, if only because pugging isn't worth the gamble for casual gamers (as you said), and rallying people together for a 2 hour 5-man can be tough.
We're not asking for welfare epics or to be ilvl9000 without effort, we just want to be able to see and enjoy content on the same terms we were able to enjoy it in the last expansion. Content shouldn't have to be easymode to cater to casuals or ridiculously hard and time-consuming so hardcores get their kicks. We can both have our cake here.
QQinsider Jan 12th 2011 11:04PM
@N-train
You're right, but this whole argument boils down to the simple fact that many of the hardcore players don't want you to have any cake at all, because the cake doesn't taste as good to them if other people are allowed to have it too. Even when they have heroic cake you're still not allowed to taste the normal cake, because you should know your place and be happy with bread and water.
Res Jan 13th 2011 12:12AM
So what are you saying? Should they retune all the heroics so that they are now hard for people in raid gear despite dropping gear that doesn't matter to raiders?
Ste Jan 13th 2011 8:31AM
4 Grey comments by the same poster in one little thread. That has to be some sort of record.