Ghostcrawler responds to heroic dungeon difficulty complaints

Like I said, it's an epic post, and we won't reprint the whole thing here. This, however, is the key takeaway:
Wow, Dungeons are Hard!The bottom line is that we want Heroics and raids to be challenging, and that is particularly true now while the content is new and characters are still collecting gear. They're only going to get easier from here on out. We want players to approach an encounter, especially a Heroic encounter, as a puzzle to be solved. We want groups to communicate and strategize. And by extension, we want you to celebrate when you win instead of it being a foregone conclusion.
On the other hand, we don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they're doing. We don't want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players. While at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.
Ultimately, we don't want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success, because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategize.
On the other hand, we don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they're doing. We don't want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players. While at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.
Ultimately, we don't want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success, because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategize.
All that being said, though, is Blizzard really satisfied with its dungeon designs and their current level of difficulty? Hard heroics are indeed hard, but the updated PTR patch notes for 4.0.6 (which went live just yesterday at almost the exact same time Ghostcrawler was discussing heroics) indicate that a series of nerfs is coming our way. That will no doubt lead to player rejoicing, but remember -- heroics are naturally getting easier as people get more familiar with them and players continue to compile better gear, which makes completion even easier still.
When patch 4.0.6 goes live (presumably in a couple of weeks), Baron Ashbury will no longer cast Mend Rotten Flesh. Beauty will lose one of her puppies, the poor thing. Every single boss fight in the Stonecore (IMO, the most dreaded of all the heroics) will be nerfed -- Corborus will jump less, High Priestess Azil's adds will die more easily, and Slabhide will drop fewer rocks upon your collective heads. Admittedly, some of these fights were clearly in need of a fix -- Ashbury is a nightmare with some group compositions. Still, it's an interesting mixed message: "Heroics are supposed to be hard, but in patch 4.0.6, we're making them significantly easier."
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 9)
Sinthar Jan 13th 2011 12:23PM
Well if they are too easy for you in raid gear Silencerer, then TAKE IT OFF and put your old stuff back on. Jesus - saying 'I outgear it and its now easy' is like saying "I found kindergarden hard first time round - but now im 40 its easy"
Mayhew Jan 13th 2011 2:00PM
@VSUReaper
That group composition doesn't sound as bad to me as it might seem, at first. You just have to be somewhat creative in how you use your assets. What I see in that comp is a ridiculous amount of short-cooldown interrupts, three separate disarms, four aoe fears, one of which can be used multiple times in a single pull, a ranged silence, and a significant amount of aoe dmg with no need to worry about breaking CC. In addition, you potentially have up to four individuals in the group that could be tanking or offtanking a mob at any given time. I'm guessing that you could handle most heroics with that group.
thebl4ckd0g Jan 12th 2011 5:09PM
Now if they'd only fix the load screens taking 2 full minutes between where I'm at and dungeon transitions, the latency issues with most of the North American ISP's and the 40 minute wait as a DPS, that will make Cata the best release yet! :)
skodnoise Jan 12th 2011 5:31PM
The 40 minute wait for dps isn't something Blizzard can fix, but it is something you can fix. Just stop being collectively bad. There are tons of great tanks out there (myself included) that love tanking and are completely put off from the RDF. The only time I queued by myself post Cataclysm had a healer with almost no spirit gear and 3 dps that refused to do any CC or follow a kill order. In 10 minutes they kicked me for being bad =/. I almost wanted to say "sorry guys, let's get a time machine and I'll be able to spam swipe and mangle every gcd and carry you through your mistakes again."
TL;DR - RDF is a nightmare and the only way more tanks will queue is if the skill level of the community as a whole improves.
Silversol Jan 12th 2011 5:39PM
One person can't 'collectively' do anything... because they're one person.
Mssr Moo Goo 2 Jan 12th 2011 5:58PM
I tank tonnes of RFD groups. My experience is pure PuGs are fine, and almost always listen to instructions, and are patient with CC/LoS pulling ect...
What is almost IMPOSSIBLE is joining a premade. They won't listen, they will pull for you, and will be obnoxious. Pre-mades are almost 100% fail when I join them as a tank.
Aris Jan 12th 2011 6:12PM
@skod
/agree... to a point. But tanks can be just as much to blame now...
I'm a healer, always have been (since vanilla), and I really am enjoying healing now in Cata, too. But I have had plenty of groups where the dps just couldn't shoulder the blame (at least not all of it). I had a bear tank that took so much damage from a two mob pull that I burned my entire mana pool single target healing him and as soon as I went oom he died. He was clearly undergeared. We actually booted the tank we had in BRC a few days ago because he wouldn't listen to anyone and pulled like he was in Wrath. The last time I randomed in to VP, the tank kept pulling when I had no mana (or even better was still back at the last kill site drinking), we had a lock AND a hunter but tank didn't want any CC and I spent the entire first third of the dungeon chasing them and playing catch up. They'd be almost dead when I got there and I'd burn through my whole pool (being incredibly inefficient) to save them, and then they run off to the next while I'm trying to recover. They even pulled the boss like this. After we downed him (and nobody died) I got called terribad and the group splintered.
Point is, I know I'm not the only one encountering group dynamics like this. We ALL need to learn to work together better. Even if you think you don't need to CC an encounter, if the group can, you should probably do it anyway. It makes it easier on everyone, gives fewer opportunities for mistakes, and keeps the group going smoother. It's a lot faster to wait an extra 5 or 10 seconds to mark, employ CC, and not wipe than the alternative.
Of course, the flip side is when you do luck in to that group that just clicks, it's so much FUN! Those are the groups that keep me rolling the dice in the RDF when my guild doesn't need me.
ecwfrk Jan 12th 2011 7:23PM
thebl4ckd0g, for every story like yours there's one about a tank who charges in without thought to CC or pulls 3 groups of MoBs, and then rage quits after screaming at the rest of the group for being bad and causing the wipe.
Bad players aren't the cause of the the long DPS queues. The issue is that tanking and healing require a different play style, skill set and level of responsibility than DPS which isn't as popular with the player base as the DPS role is.
DPS pretty much have to learn their rotation, not stand in the fire, and watch for DBM alerts to tell them when to turn away/stop DPSing/Run. And when they screw up and die there's a decent chance their screwup isn't going to cause a wipe as they can get a BR and instantly be back in the fight or the rest of the group can step up and push a bit harder and still finish the fight without them.
Tanks however have to know the instance much more intimately than a DPS to know things like proper mob positioning, which MoBs are casters and healers so they can mark them correctly and proceed with the correct kill order, if there's a pat that will come along halfway through the fight and wipe the group, when a burst attack is coming to blow survivability cooldowns, when adds are going to come so they can be picked up before they tear after the healer, ect. And if a tank screws up and dies as a result, the rest of the group is usually toast as even with a BR, the tank likely isn't going to be able to reestablish agro fast enough to prevent a wipe and unlike DPS, you aren't 1/3 of the role in the group, you're 100% of it and the others can't finish the fight without you.
Healers have to know when burst damage is going to occur and have a heal incoming when it lands, they have to watch everyone else for incoming AoE damage or people hit by ground effects, they have to react quickly to unanticipated damage on both the tank and the rest of the group, they have to watch their threat not only on the mob being tanked but all the other mobs and hope the tank is doing the same, etc. And like tanks, if they screw up, it usually means the group wipes as they carry 100% of the responsibility for that role.
Those are issues Blizzard *could* address (in any of 1000 possible ways, none of which would be perfect), but they either have not yet felt a need/desire to do so or, they haven't yet decided on how to go about it if they have. But it's not something "not being bad" is going to address in any significant way.
Avan Jan 12th 2011 8:01PM
@Silversol
"One person can't 'collectively' do anything... because they're one person."
I absolutely hate that your post was uprated, because you're wrong. Sure, one person alone won't make much of a difference. But not doing anything, because they're one person, will make even *less* of a difference. When people work towards the same goal, be it independently or together, then the struggle becomes easier. Do what you can because you must, for the good of all of us.
I wholly expect my comment to turn dark gray.
BigBadGooz Jan 12th 2011 9:05PM
problem solved here
http://dagobah.net/flash/autotune.swf
Mark Jan 12th 2011 10:24PM
@Avan
You can't be a collective as one person, by definition you're not a collective, you're an individual, I believe you missed the entire point.
"A collective is a group of entities that share or are motivated by at least one common issue or interest, or work together on a specific project(s) to achieve a common objective."
naughtyzoot Jan 13th 2011 12:28PM
@skodnoise
As DPS (warlock) I'm constantly bailing out PUG tanks from LFD. I've switched my bindings, re-glyphed, and added macros just to bail out the never-ending line of fail tanks I get from LFD. 90% of my PUGs have come with tanks who cheated LFD for instant queues, chock full of DPS and PvP gear, and/or who /ragequit at the first wipe after running around not waiting for CC or the healer to have mana.
I'm so sick and tired of these elitist crap tanks posting online and finding them in-game who are just awful and blame DPS for everything, like they can do no wrong. I've almost got my old and neglected Protection Paladin into Cata content just so I don't have to deal with it anymore.
@ecwfrk
As DPS I need to know more then just how to pew pew and not stand in fire, which by the way ALL CLASSES NEED TO KNOW! Countless wipes to idiot tanks who just stand in ground effects expecting the healer to bail them out. As DPS I need to CC and maintain it, even after the tank Avenger's Shield/Thunderclaps/Death & Decays, Pestilence, Blood Boil/Swipes, or bad DPS AoEs instead of attacking the tank's target to break it. I need to be able to do this even if the tank doesn't mark and just pulls to avoid group wipes. And when I do CC, I need to pay attention to 2+ mobs at once to be effective at it. I need to know the battles to know which adds I pick up and nuke (Grim Batol is a perfect example). I need to know the mechanics of the fight to know to run away or move in when necessary to make it easier on the healer. I need to manage my resources effectively. I need to know when I can help out the healer or the tank, such as pulling an add of the heals the tank has missed and moving them back by the tank so they can pick it up again, and Soulshattering away the threat I've generated. If my class has interrupts I need to know when to use them. I need to self-heal/pop cooldowns to make the healer's job easier, along with not standing in things that hurt me. I need to supply raid buffs like Heroism if my class has it and at the correct time.
Tanking is not harder and requires no more paying attention then any other class in a Heroic. Your job is threat and staying alive. You need to pay attention to the other party members to make sure they're ready for a pull, to pull threat back off them with your taunts, to pop your cooldowns or interrupts to stay alive, and mostly just smack something. If you're a more well-rounded tank, you need to mark too, but that's 99.9% of the time looking at your group for what CC you have and appropriately marking the casters of the mob. Positioning isn't hard once you know what the mob/boss does and all classes have to do it, not just the tank.
Heroics are not hard, they simply require some coordination within the party. And these PTR changes aren't really nerfs (in fact some are adding more effects and/or damage), they're tuning. A mid-instance boss should not be 5 times harder than the end boss. A boss should not require 3 class of interrupts be available or the fight is next to impossible. LFD doesn't allow for picking and choosing, and every heroic should be able to be completed with a PUG group from LFD, and not just be a lolzAoEspam 15minute romp.
HHUK Jan 12th 2011 5:09PM
I just hate when they nerf some of the "move out of the way" mechanics, they're easy to understand. The Slabhide one is just wtf, I've never seen anyone fail on that... Maybe the odd one or two that spoke poor English and wouldn't accept any help regarding what to do.
I'm not sure how much it would effect people with low latency, I've had the odd lag spike when someone in my family decides to torrent but nothing that's gotten me killed.
Most mechanics are common sense, any that have to be learned can be tweaked slightly if the difficulty is too high. Don't tweak with common sense please.
Dez Jan 12th 2011 5:45PM
The problem doesn't come from high latency, it comes from low graphics settings. Specifically, particle density. It becomes a lot harder to avoid standing in the fire when your graphics card is only up to rendering half of it, making it much less visible on the screen. But fire at least is colourful, falling bits of rock are not. Even worse is Corborus' burrow graphic, which I nearly always end up failing at since all that comes up on my screen are a few flecks of dust.
Of course, that doesn't mean it's not my fault for failing. But it does create fake difficulty in the game, and an imbalance between those who can afford mega-PCs, and those who can't (or those who own a Mac :P). WoW isn't the only MMO to suffer this; any MMO will suffer if your PC is cruddy enough, but it's a real shame that you can only change particle density on spell effects, rather than, say, texture resolution (i.e. have undetailed high-density effects instead of detailed low-density ones).
HHUK Jan 12th 2011 5:54PM
I've heard of this in the past, in gaming you should never be disadvantaged by your rig. Making spell effects noticable even on lower graphics settings should be something high on Blizz's list.
There's a difference between being ignorant and genuinely in a position like that.
I feel for you man.
Austin Jan 12th 2011 6:46PM
Seeing as I don't know a lot about this, do you think Blizzard could solve this by potentially having two separate sliders for spell density and spell resolution? I'd rather the huge amount of fire be low detail and high density rather than super detailed and invisible too.
=P
Sir Broose Jan 12th 2011 7:13PM
Dez, I'm on a Mac - not even one of the expensive 12 or 8 core babies - just a 4 core. I put in 8 Gig of RAM and sprung for the video card upgrade to the ATI Radeon HD 5870 and I'm running all my settings on Ultra and it looks great! I get around 60fps in most settings. I little less in the busiest sections of capital cities and up to 120 fps in deserted areas. Spells and effects look great in dungeons. Not sure what you mean about being on a Mac.
crschmidt Jan 12th 2011 7:46PM
Macs, especially mac laptops, make it more difficult or expensive to get a good video card. Combined with driver updates being tied to *Apple*'s release schedule (since you can't install separate drivers -- at least, nvidia doesn't seem to provide them) rather than the graphics card manufacturers, and you've got a somewhat shitty situation for getting high end graphics compared to the ease + cost on a PC.
Cataclysm seriously hindered my graphics on my mac laptop; my roommate is even more screwed. I can't upgrade the graphics card in my mac like I might be able to on a PC, and even if I could have purchased an upgrade at purchase time (I couldn't), the cost to get the cards that are supported by the mac tends to be higher on average.
You're talking about a high end machine already. There are a lot of people out there that don't have high end gaming rigs, and they are the kinds of people hurt. Dollar for dollar, getting good performance out of 3d games on a mac is more expensive than on a PC.
Sir Broose Jan 12th 2011 7:55PM
I can't argue with the higher cost and difficulty of upgrading a Mac. That is definitely true. I read his comment as being on a Mac was like being on a cheap PC with crappy graphic abilities. Perhaps I misunderstood what he meant.
pixelrevision Jan 13th 2011 3:15AM
Bootcamp will help. Alot.