Ghostcrawler responds to heroic dungeon difficulty complaints

Like I said, it's an epic post, and we won't reprint the whole thing here. This, however, is the key takeaway:
Wow, Dungeons are Hard!The bottom line is that we want Heroics and raids to be challenging, and that is particularly true now while the content is new and characters are still collecting gear. They're only going to get easier from here on out. We want players to approach an encounter, especially a Heroic encounter, as a puzzle to be solved. We want groups to communicate and strategize. And by extension, we want you to celebrate when you win instead of it being a foregone conclusion.
On the other hand, we don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they're doing. We don't want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players. While at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.
Ultimately, we don't want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success, because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategize.
On the other hand, we don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they're doing. We don't want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players. While at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.
Ultimately, we don't want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success, because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategize.
All that being said, though, is Blizzard really satisfied with its dungeon designs and their current level of difficulty? Hard heroics are indeed hard, but the updated PTR patch notes for 4.0.6 (which went live just yesterday at almost the exact same time Ghostcrawler was discussing heroics) indicate that a series of nerfs is coming our way. That will no doubt lead to player rejoicing, but remember -- heroics are naturally getting easier as people get more familiar with them and players continue to compile better gear, which makes completion even easier still.
When patch 4.0.6 goes live (presumably in a couple of weeks), Baron Ashbury will no longer cast Mend Rotten Flesh. Beauty will lose one of her puppies, the poor thing. Every single boss fight in the Stonecore (IMO, the most dreaded of all the heroics) will be nerfed -- Corborus will jump less, High Priestess Azil's adds will die more easily, and Slabhide will drop fewer rocks upon your collective heads. Admittedly, some of these fights were clearly in need of a fix -- Ashbury is a nightmare with some group compositions. Still, it's an interesting mixed message: "Heroics are supposed to be hard, but in patch 4.0.6, we're making them significantly easier."
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 9)
Lloren Jan 12th 2011 5:55PM
I don't think that is what GC is saying, nor do I think it makes any sense. I agree that heroics should be difficult... That's why they're "heroic". But the idea that a pug should be 90% unsuccessful and a guild group with coordination and gear should be 60% unsuccessful is just outrageous. Heroics are a stepping stone to raids, and not end game content in and of themselves. They should be difficult enough that they are challenging while still being relatively accessible to a group willing to coordinate and execute the proper mechanics... And I think that's what GC is saying and what theyre aiming for.
MasterInsan0 Jan 12th 2011 5:59PM
Really? You want to wipe 60% of the time even if you know the fights, are over-geared, and well-prepared? The only way to make that happen would be to make the fights stupidly random and unfair.
Surely you were joking. Otherwise, you need to quit right now before Blizzard gets any ideas from you.
crschmidt Jan 12th 2011 7:36PM
Pretty sure you guys both just missed sarcasm/trolling. :p
I don't think either of the statements in the OP's comment are true: I don't think that people in heroics are wiping 90% of the time, and the best guilds are *definitely* not wiping in heroics 60% of the time; these things are not at all based on luck. (I wouldn't be surprised to find that Paragon players are able to blow through heroics in 20 minutes -- both gear and skill can let you overcome a lot of what makes heroics hard.)
Natasha Jan 12th 2011 5:30PM
My question is, are raids suppose to be progressively harder by design? Or is it the loot that makes the challenge.
For example, if you (using as an example, don't condone it) go on a private server where you are given the average level and gear for a raid, no set-procs, and the same spells to use. Would an earlier raid such as BT or ICC be progressively easier than, say, Bastion of Twilight?
Just trying to see if by "difficulty" he means skill alone, or gear etc.
Kar Jan 13th 2011 12:37AM
Call me crazy. But even though I am busting through heroics solidly, I am running across more and more players giving up on them and quitting bc they are unmanageable for a large chunk of the player base. I like challenging content even with my casual stance but I don't want to end up being the only one of my friends playing surrounded by elitist jerks. I'm not saying nerf them to the ground. I'm saying make the margin of error not so slim.
Trilynne Jan 12th 2011 5:31PM
""heroics are supposed to be hard, but in patch 4.0.6, we're making them significantly easier.""
I disagree... from what I've heard, these nerfs will be more of a 'we want to be to hard, but not stupidly frustrating'. There is challenging and rewarding hard, where you need to work together, know the fight, stay on your toes, and YES! the boss goes down! Then there is frustrating, banging your head into a brick wall hoping luck goes your way, here comes another corpse run before FINALLY that is dead, we can move on with our day, hard. The first one, heck yes, it makes the game fun. The second makes me not want to play. I would think and hope that these changes are intended to take these boss fights into the first category and out of the second.
Trilynne Jan 12th 2011 5:35PM
*we want it to be hard but not...
derp xP
Rufio Jan 12th 2011 10:30PM
I love it when you talk dirty :-P
iceveiled Jan 12th 2011 5:33PM
I don't get some of these supposed nerfs. Our guild downed Heroic Beauty on the second try , yet others we had wipe after wipe on. Oh well.
nymrohd Jan 12th 2011 5:50PM
Beauty really depends on what CC your group can afford for the pups. Sure if you have stable CC for all three it is piss easy. On the rare but possible group that can only CC one, or gods forbid, none, the difficulty increases significantly.
fildrigar Jan 12th 2011 10:47PM
^^^ What he said. The first time I tried Beauty on Heroic was with a guild group. Unfortunately, we had few CC options that would work on beasts. We had a very rough time of it. We did get them down, but it was a struggle. They are very punishing without the right mix of CC.
Matt Jan 12th 2011 5:33PM
The last thing we need is Heroics getting easier. It's like a idiot filter for raid groups. If they can''t beat heroic dungeons and get the gear, they won't beable to do raids, and really the earlier the idiots get filtered out the better.
Artificial Jan 12th 2011 7:13PM
In order to function effectively as a filter, though, they need to be consistent in their difficulty, hence the need for the balancing. Otherwise, they don't filter based on ability but rather based on luck.
my2cents Jan 12th 2011 5:38PM
When heroics were first introduced (in TBC), they were advertised as a way of providing a real challenge to those who enjoy difficult PvE content in a 5man setting. Those who preferred the more standard, more casual-friendly 5man dungeon experience could run regular mode high-level dungeons. It made a lot of sense. If you didn't want to run heroics, no one was forcing you to. But if you were a more serious player who wanted something challenging to do other than a raid, heroics were for you. Wrath totally screwed that up. People thought of regular dungeons as something you only ran while leveling up (or perhaps for a very, very brief period of time after hitting level 80). Heroics were made significantly easier than even regular dungeons were in TBC.
Now, in Cata, they are bringing the design back to something more like what we saw in TBC. Don't think of heroics as something you have to run. If you want something that requires a bit of coordination and skill, but that's pretty much guaranteed not to be a wipe-fest, run regular 85 dungeons. They are quite fun and the loot isn't all THAT different from the loot you get in heroics. However, if you're someone who wants a real challenge in a 5man setting, heroics are for you. What's the problem with that?
my2cents Jan 12th 2011 5:41PM
Grr sorry, that was meant as a reply to Outdatedkero's comment on page 1.
nymrohd Jan 12th 2011 5:52PM
Honestly I don't think heroics ever where so difficult. Maybe for the very first few that you did with leveling gear. But it is not hard to get a decent gear set. There are a lot of craftable items, a lot of BoEs on the AH, and most slots can be covered from JPs. Once your group is averaging more than 340 ilvl they are easy and at 346 ilvl even the achievements are relatively easy bar maybe Headed South.
Billaos Jan 13th 2011 4:38PM
Except for the valor points. I'd happily run normals during the weeks and leave the heroics for weekends, if I could get at least some vp's. Even if it was like ten times less points or something.
I've been trying to run one heroic through LFG every morning, before work. With 40 min wait plus wipes and ragequits, I only finish one or two a week. I'd rather be able to comfortably finish one every day, and take longer to accumulate the same amount of points.
A5 Jan 12th 2011 5:39PM
I was really happy when they upped the difficulty of heroics for Cata. It made me realize that this game had evolved to a point where I no longer enjoyed playing it. I do not feel like spending 3 hours in a heroic just to die on the second boss. I cancelled my account and uninstalled sometime before Christmas. Whenever I get the urge to reinstall I just pop on here and see the devs sailing the ship even farther away.
Hillazon Jan 12th 2011 5:39PM
I wouldn't mind pugging cata heroics so much if:
(1) it wasn't such a godawful long wait in LFD, even as a healer, and then running the heroic didn't take two hours with multiple drops, people getting kicked, requeuing, etc. So that in a 3-hour primetime evening block after work & supper, maybe you can get one heroic done if you are lucky.
(2) if there was a "daily" heroic that gave extra rep, like Wrath had for a while
(3) if the "gimmicks" in the boss fights weren't so unforgivable and caused insta-wipes. There should be a way to recover if someone misses an interrupt. Achieving perfection with a random group of strangers isn't terribly likely.
crschmidt Jan 12th 2011 7:41PM
There is a daily heroic: It's whatever one you do first that day. (Subsequent heroics don't give Valor points, only additional justice points.) The Dungeon Finder replaced that functionality, and I don't see any reason why this is a problem. Why do you think this doesn't work?