Ghostcrawler responds to heroic dungeon difficulty complaints

Like I said, it's an epic post, and we won't reprint the whole thing here. This, however, is the key takeaway:
Wow, Dungeons are Hard!The bottom line is that we want Heroics and raids to be challenging, and that is particularly true now while the content is new and characters are still collecting gear. They're only going to get easier from here on out. We want players to approach an encounter, especially a Heroic encounter, as a puzzle to be solved. We want groups to communicate and strategize. And by extension, we want you to celebrate when you win instead of it being a foregone conclusion.
On the other hand, we don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they're doing. We don't want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players. While at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.
Ultimately, we don't want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success, because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategize.
On the other hand, we don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they're doing. We don't want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players. While at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.
Ultimately, we don't want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success, because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategize.
All that being said, though, is Blizzard really satisfied with its dungeon designs and their current level of difficulty? Hard heroics are indeed hard, but the updated PTR patch notes for 4.0.6 (which went live just yesterday at almost the exact same time Ghostcrawler was discussing heroics) indicate that a series of nerfs is coming our way. That will no doubt lead to player rejoicing, but remember -- heroics are naturally getting easier as people get more familiar with them and players continue to compile better gear, which makes completion even easier still.
When patch 4.0.6 goes live (presumably in a couple of weeks), Baron Ashbury will no longer cast Mend Rotten Flesh. Beauty will lose one of her puppies, the poor thing. Every single boss fight in the Stonecore (IMO, the most dreaded of all the heroics) will be nerfed -- Corborus will jump less, High Priestess Azil's adds will die more easily, and Slabhide will drop fewer rocks upon your collective heads. Admittedly, some of these fights were clearly in need of a fix -- Ashbury is a nightmare with some group compositions. Still, it's an interesting mixed message: "Heroics are supposed to be hard, but in patch 4.0.6, we're making them significantly easier."
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Reader Comments (Page 5 of 9)
Carson Jan 12th 2011 9:12PM
crschmidt, if I had to guess at his thinking: under the old "daily heroic" quest system, if the daily heroic was an "unpopular" one (like, say, Oculus), people had to just either suck it up or not do it. Now, if the first heroic that gets served up to you is an unpopular one (not sure what they are at the moment, Stonecore, Grim Batol..?), you can just ditch it and roll again. There's nothing to provide an incentive for the group to stick together and work their way through the daily.
ltgalloway Jan 12th 2011 5:41PM
For the heroics I've been in I've observed that the difficulty has heightened a sense of comradery. Many pug groups I've run have been expressing thanks and appreciation for one another with much more frequency and enthusiasm than I ever saw in BC or Wrath. Of course, there's plenty of negative people still out there, but I thought I'd mention the generosity and good will I've seen lately in PUGs, which I have to attribute to the increased difficulty. Bonds forged in fire and all that.
Ian Jan 12th 2011 5:49PM
I've noticed that Blizzard has this curious attitude about their game. "We've noticed that players prefer to play the game a certain way, but we don't want them to enjoy it unless they're enjoying it in the way that we've predetermined the game must be enjoyed."
I don't have a huge issue with it, being their game and all, but it's always struck me as an odd way to think.
Artificial Jan 12th 2011 7:21PM
Interesting. Most people complain about Blizzard having the exact opposite attitude.
I guess it's like bias in news. When you hear someone complain about it, it tends to reveal the complainer's bias, not the alleged bias of the article itself.
Sir Broose Jan 12th 2011 7:38PM
I'm not sure that's what GC is saying. I don't think he's saying, "I know you ALL want it 'this' way, but we would rather do 'this.'" He is saying that SOME people say they want it to be different, and he wants to validate the opinion and let them know that they have been heard, but that he believes that the larger population is served better in the long run by doing things the way they are.
Just because he is admitting to having heard and considered a certain opinion, does not make that opinion correct or in the majority.
Pam Jan 12th 2011 5:51PM
As a resto druid, I am actually kinda sad about Beauty. That encounter had the perfect amount of healing needed vs using my hibernate CC to keep one of the pups in line ... I LOVED that fight.
They took ToL so that we could use more offensive spells. I didn't understand at first, wasn't at all happy, and when I finally was forced to CC in that fight due to comp makeup, that is when I truly understood where they were going with it....and enjoyed it a lot.
Maybe sometime I can just convince the group to let me hibernate so they can pew-pew and not worry about CC...at least on that one fight. I wish there were more I could be helpful like that, however, the mana costs are so horrid or the damage is so huge that it's just not worth wasting mana to try ...
Xot Jan 12th 2011 5:52PM
I think what I find the hardest about the Cata dungeons is not the content, the bosses, the mobs etc. what I find the hardest is the communication with your fellow dungeoneers.
"Everyone on the same page please" is the toughest part of the new dungeons.
crschmidt Jan 12th 2011 7:37PM
I've gotten in the habit of just giving people in PUGs our vent when we wipe more than once or twice in a heroic.
Jeff Jan 12th 2011 6:00PM
Congrats on making a post without talking about yourself in the 3rd person.
Big step!
andrea Jan 12th 2011 6:04PM
I'm fine with the heroic changes, then and now, only real complaint and what deters me from doing them or even regular modes anymore is the length. A vanilla-esque change I do not at all welcome.
One thing that has always bothered me throughout WOW, is that if they want those dungeons to be so difficult/challenging, why do you not see that at all leveling up? Don't think there's a game any easier to do that in, other than this one. Taming the seahorse quest was very fisher-price, for example.
N-train Jan 12th 2011 7:01PM
I agree, I think the one thing he didn't and should have addressed is the length. Even pre-made, few wipe groups can take over 90 minutes, and that's not even considering LFD queue times. SFK, DM, GB, and HoO can easily take two hours on a good night.
The nice thing about the way daily heroics worked pre-DF was if the daily was a long heroic, you could skip it that day and run something else. Getting most Cata heroics is a long-term commitment, and if you don't have the time for a long one and the random gives you one, you're screwed.
As for leveling difficulty, that's something everyone has to partake in, there's not much one can do in WoW at lvl 1. You can choose not to do dungeons or bgs or heroics if you don't want to, but everyone has to level, and 85 is pretty far away, especially if all leveling was as difficult as a heroic dungeon.
MichaelBerean Jan 12th 2011 7:27PM
Leveling used to be that hard, at least for some classes. It is still challenging if you do it on a pvp server where your side does not dominate.
Personally, I am extremely happy with the changes Blizzard has made to leveling since early Vanilla. It is much more fun now.
VioletArrows Jan 12th 2011 9:34PM
The thing is, I think they *did* try to ease folks in with hints about what could be in dungeons.
The fire elemental quest in Hyjal with a million skeletons at his feet- ooh. Never mind, those were dead *players*. (Get out of the fire)
The Deepholm quests where you 1) stay away from that guy while you're buffed from the elementals, and 2) jump between floating rocks trying to dps a dragon at only 60% because the quest doesn't work with pets. *grumble* (DPS on the move).
The stealth around 300 elite guards and a dragon except not really because they can all see through stealth anyway. ...Actually I don't even know what the point of that one was.
And the everspawns in new zones from Blizzard's misguided attempt to make sure people didn't have to wait for respawns are a good and painful lesson in crowd control. *twitch*
killer_tunes Jan 12th 2011 6:07PM
So basically if I want to complete a heroic dungeon I have to play with friends or guildies. Kind of makes the Random LFG tool worthless.
crschmidt Jan 12th 2011 7:52PM
Random LFG tool still works perfectly fine for normals, which are a great way to gear up (through rep as well as drops) for heroics.
chrobry Jan 12th 2011 6:12PM
I am a healer holy priest. I usually PUG, partly due to the time I play; rarely can I run guildy run. I am pretty well equip now (Ilevel 346 equipped), but nothing amazing at all.
I be honest, other than Grim I find Heroics to be boring these days. I rarely fail, and difference between good group and bad group tends to be time. For instance yesterday I was in heroic where highest DPS was 5k (HoO) and with 2 wipes total we finished. Took 2 hours, but we finished. The tank was new to the instance on heroic too and I had to explain most fights.
The only difference is Grim, where I can not compensate for bad DPS, there simply isn't anything I can do if people don't move correctly or do not take care of the adds right. This is especially true on the last boss, where if DPS doesn't know how to burn the adds correctly the fight goes out of hand instantly.
I also have little mana issues these days. Healing it is no longer stressful.
Anyway the point I am trying to make is that for most part Heroics are fine, and hardly hard. With people that half way pay attention things works without issues. They are certainly harder then WoTLK but WoTLK was silly easy. There were times in those instances where I just went shadow since there was little point to heal.
Let's not cry NERF let's enjoy the game and the challenge is provides and not just have heroics become yet another daily grind that person with no skill can just do.
BTW I am not saying I am some kind of "super healer", I know I am decent, but that's about it.
Darkseid Jan 12th 2011 6:13PM
I wont invoke the silent majority as Ghost Crawler put it, I'll simply say that I tried heroics a few days ago, and it was so bad that I haven't played the game at all in a few days. If your were wondering where all the jerk tanks where hiding...yep, you found them...in heroics. If you want to wait 40+ minutes just to join an 'already in progress' death fest...yep, you found it in heroics.
I came in the middle of a H Shadowfang Keep then a H Halls of Origination. The first was my first Cata Heroic and....well........dayuuummmmm! I had heard they were hard, but that was just plain stupid. One boss fight, I rez and ran back after getting killed, got back, ran into the room, got hit by some green stuff he was spewing and died in 3 seconds flat...fun...fun...fun...
Then in H Halls of Origination, it was quite clear that we simply did not have the gear to complete the instance. Even trash pulls took 5-6minutes of constant combat to clear. Boss fights saw us attacking and attacking and attacking and attacking....for what seemed like forever, just to see the boss at half health and the healer OOM.
Even with the proper stategies, we were no match. So everyone says, 'well it will get better with better gear'. Thats great in theory, but how does everyone get better gear when no one is finishing these heroics? There are rep rewards, and crafted gear, but even GC says that will likely put you at or just above what they consider "minimum" for Heroics.
Look, everyone plays games for different reasons. And I understand and respect that. But I hate when I see someone(in particular game designers) talk about making stuff "challenging". Because it almost always results in ridiculous game content. And IMO, those heroics are completely and totally ridiculous. I play games for fun, and getting killed 3 secs after you walk into a room with a boss, not even knowing what hit you, is not fun. Not for me, not for the group, and not exactly inspiring people to try again.
I think its pretty clear what Blizzard was doing here with Cata Heroics. They were responding to all the complaining about the game going too casual during WoTLK. So they decided to throw a bone to the "epics should be epically hard to get...heroics should be insanely hard" crowd. Thats fine. But what Blizzard better remember is that while that 'hardcore' contengent will keep playing through "easy" content, filling their time with insults for other players....casual players wont keep banging their heads against a 'heroic' wall in hopes of breaking through 'someday' after getting better gear.
Nurowyn Jan 12th 2011 7:20PM
The minimum for heroics is an average ilevel of 329. If you get your rep up through running regulars (Lost City, Grim Batol, Halls of Origination), between drops and rep rewards your average ilevel should be way over 333. If you jump into heroics the second your ilevel hits 329 and still have a lot of quest greens and no gems or enchants then yeah, it's going to be a lot harder.
Radiophonic Jan 12th 2011 9:49PM
Yeah had a few of those fun run-in's with potty-mouthed, rushed tanks. Shame we can't put people from other realms on ignore anymore.
Socalshocker Jan 12th 2011 6:27PM
I'm a casual, work a full time job 10 hours/day, so when I get on for the 2 or so hours per night, I don't have time to wait 45 minutes in a random heroic queue and hope the other 4 people also know what they're doing. If they don't, I'm pretty much screwed cause it's back into another 45 minute queue. Then I have to repeat this daily collecting 1000 valor points to buy 1 piece of armor? No thanks.
Needless to say, I've let my account run out, my $14.95/month is just as much as the hardcores $14.95, who are saying there are no problems with Cataclysm.