Ghostcrawler responds to heroic dungeon difficulty complaints

Like I said, it's an epic post, and we won't reprint the whole thing here. This, however, is the key takeaway:
Wow, Dungeons are Hard!The bottom line is that we want Heroics and raids to be challenging, and that is particularly true now while the content is new and characters are still collecting gear. They're only going to get easier from here on out. We want players to approach an encounter, especially a Heroic encounter, as a puzzle to be solved. We want groups to communicate and strategize. And by extension, we want you to celebrate when you win instead of it being a foregone conclusion.
On the other hand, we don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they're doing. We don't want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players. While at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.
Ultimately, we don't want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success, because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategize.
On the other hand, we don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they're doing. We don't want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players. While at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.
Ultimately, we don't want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success, because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategize.
All that being said, though, is Blizzard really satisfied with its dungeon designs and their current level of difficulty? Hard heroics are indeed hard, but the updated PTR patch notes for 4.0.6 (which went live just yesterday at almost the exact same time Ghostcrawler was discussing heroics) indicate that a series of nerfs is coming our way. That will no doubt lead to player rejoicing, but remember -- heroics are naturally getting easier as people get more familiar with them and players continue to compile better gear, which makes completion even easier still.
When patch 4.0.6 goes live (presumably in a couple of weeks), Baron Ashbury will no longer cast Mend Rotten Flesh. Beauty will lose one of her puppies, the poor thing. Every single boss fight in the Stonecore (IMO, the most dreaded of all the heroics) will be nerfed -- Corborus will jump less, High Priestess Azil's adds will die more easily, and Slabhide will drop fewer rocks upon your collective heads. Admittedly, some of these fights were clearly in need of a fix -- Ashbury is a nightmare with some group compositions. Still, it's an interesting mixed message: "Heroics are supposed to be hard, but in patch 4.0.6, we're making them significantly easier."
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Reader Comments (Page 6 of 9)
chrobry Jan 12th 2011 6:39PM
Just so you know, I also work at least 10 hours a day, and have family + kids. I rarely get to play more than 2 hours.
If you want shorter queue time, roll Tank/Healer. I realize it may not be what you want but you must understand that right now there is a major shortage of both but surplus of people who want to play DPS.
I am HARDLY hard core. But yet I say that Heroics are fine.
There are few fights that can be a bit harder to deal with, like Baron Ash(what'shisname) if you don't have DPS that can interrupt (or know when to). However majority of fights fall into the category of :" Don't stand in the fire, and take care of the adds".
Let's take the Grim 3rd boss (the Dragon). Let's see.. "A. take care of flame add.. not hard just make sure you move before it gets to you, B. When you see Dragon cast... run behind it, and C. stay out of stuff on ground". THAT'S IT! The problem is not with the design it's with the fact that people don't pay attention. That isn't Blizz fault that is a nature of playing with a lot of people. Let's not tailor this game to LCD!
Yes, back in Vanilla when there were instances like Naxx-40, you be right. It was impossible for non-hardcore super guild to take down. Those were far too difficult, but honestly I think that with Cata Blizz got the balance mostly right.
Reiko Jan 12th 2011 8:00PM
@Chrobry
I completely agree with you. I am in the same boat working 10+ hours 5 days a week and only get a few hours a night to play (which is taken up by a couple of randoms and dailys).
The content is not as hard as many people are making it out to be, if you have situational awareness and not the tunnel vision WotLK bred into everyone, it becomes a much more enjoyable and smooth experience.
I run as a Tank (346 ilevel) on my main and DPS (341 ilevel) on my alt so I'm not mega-geared, and the only issue I tend to encounter in heroics (while not tanking), is the lack of Tanks who are willing to mark for CC or even talk to DPS before zerging pulls, which often results in wipes. If you don't play to the requirements of the encounters or overgear it, you will die.
Having a sense of vulnerability again is a nice feeling.
Pce
Knob Jan 13th 2011 5:14AM
@Socalshocker: Your passive-aggressive insinuation that those who are completing dungeons/raids don't have jobs or a "life" is hilarious to say the least. Makes the rest of your post completely worthless.
Kensdisguise Feb 8th 2011 11:44AM
Isn't America great...! That is YOUR choice. /bye
MichaelBerean Jan 12th 2011 6:33PM
This was truly an epic blog. My favorite part is the clear explanation of what the Dungeon Finder restrictions should have been at release.
"We should have also made sure players had at least seen the content on normal mode before. Maybe we should have made the item level requirements pretty relaxed if you’re going with a premade group and much stricter if you’re going with a pick-up group. Overall, we just needed to state more clearly that Heroic dungeons are intended as a destination, not a first step."
That seems to me to be the only significant mistake Blizzard made. They should have further restricted access to pug heroic 5 mans. Requiring you to do it once on regular is a good start. Implementing a way to check your key stats for the role you chose would help even more. If you want to dps a heroic 5 man pug as a Ret paladin you should be required to be hit capped, expertise capped and have X amount of attack power unbuffed for example.
I wish they had done it right to start with but at least their goal is set correctly now. And since addons and external websites have been able to tell you if your stats are up to it for years it should be fairly easy for Blizzard to implement.
Carson Jan 12th 2011 9:16PM
"Do it on normal mode, then you'll be allowed to do it on heroic" is such a simple, obvious rule. I can't understand why they used that system for Magister's Terrace, and then forgot all about it, never to use it again.
Guy Jan 12th 2011 6:39PM
Overall I enjoy heroics. I will say pugs are hit or miss, but I can live with it. I think the gear requiremnt for heroics should be higher, or at least go more along the Gearscore route and take spec into account. I was in a pug and someone needed on tank plate legs (which I could use, still have 333) and he was a Warrior DPS, I asked why, he said it would increase his iLVL. Some fights are really hard when as a tank I am #1 or #2 in DPS, when guys are doing 4.5k dps, no amount of team work will work on bosses like the 3rd boss in Lost City will help when DPS is low.
I think we could keep everything the same, but give like 30 JP for every boss in regulars at 85, this would keep people in regulars longer and could even require a higher iLVL before going to heroics. I think people want better gear, so as soon as they his 329 they jump, even when not ready.
berry Jan 12th 2011 8:34PM
I think with Cataclysm Blizzard unleashed the Wrath of the Wrath crowd. Those people playing since WOTLK and not knowing what this game and dungeons were like in Vanilla WoW. GC said it himself that heroics are not for teh LFG tool, and he is right. Don't have a guild or friends to cuddle up on Vent or TeamSpeak with? Then heroics are sometimes simply not doable and most of the times a pain in the behind.
I don't run heroics via LFG, my guild is so small, we often don't have 5 lvl85 chars online, and geared? Well, that is another issue. And if I get into a heroic with them it is a wipe-fest because I cannot tank those mobs for ever and if the healer runs oom on those TRASH mobs I'm dead and yes we are not even at a boss or the endboss, and I would need orbs to get better gear as does the healer and the DPS.
It will be a long road and not everyone will be able to get to raiding or even ilevel346 gear. My guild is just about to fall apart because the guildleader is not recruiting - everyone is looking for another guild that has more lvl85 chars and the chances of actually finishing a heroic is within grasp.
and I?
I have begun to level my fishing. 'nuff said.
Darasen Jan 12th 2011 6:49PM
Here is an idea to make instances easier (and pug raids) and more enjoyable for everyone with out having to change any in game mechanics. Make the in game chat usable. Seriously how much smoother is any pull or dungeon run with a group of people who are able to easily communicate. The single biggest hurdle in the game is communication. DDO, for example, has some very tough dungeons but the voice chat in the game works like a dream making them far more enjoyable than trying to type out instructions and coordination.
Socalshocker Jan 12th 2011 6:59PM
maybe mechanics of heroics aren't hard, but the probability of getting 5 randoms to pay attention is kinda low. so a typical night goes :
45 minute wait
Wipe
Wait for queue to refill
Wipe
Wait for queue to refill (or if it doesn't, leave and start a new 45 minute queue)
if you're lucky by this time maybe you have 5 people that can pay attention, if not, go back to start
If you happen to win and get 70 valor or whatever, you only have to go through this process 142 more times to buy some upgrades. Frustrating on so many levels for a game that's supposed to be fun/escape/recreation....
crschmidt Jan 12th 2011 7:18PM
Valor points let you purchase gear which you need to complete heroic raid encounters.
Justice points let you purchase gear which you need to complete normal raid encounters.
Reputation, crafted items, and normal dungeon drops (+quest blues) are gear which you use to complete heroic dungeon encounters.
Whining "Oh noes, I can't complete my heroic so I can't get my purpz!" is silly. If you can't complete the heroic, you don't need the purpz (since you're not working on raids either); if the problem is that you can't complete the heroic because of gear, you have a number of things you can do to get there first.
Are you exalted with all 5 dungeon factions? Got your tol barad trinket? Picked up crafted purples from your particular crafting type? Grabbed an item off the AH to fill an odd slot?
There is plenty that you can do without touching a valor or justice point. You don't need any of that gear to complete the encounters. You may need to l2p, or you may need to figure out how to find better people to run with, but the gearing system as it is designed is not the problem.
Res Jan 13th 2011 12:14AM
It sounds more like he just needs to join a guild.
Realmreaver Jan 12th 2011 7:29PM
I don't have a problem them being difficult to noobs like me.
What I do have a problem with is the new battlegroup wide LFG tool causing such long Q times then on top of that hour plus runs.
I am casual and my time is limited.
otherwise I am good about the difficulty level.
crschmidt Jan 12th 2011 7:33PM
Battlegroup wide queues didn't bump up queue times. After 4.0.3 (The shattering), the battlegroups merged, but the queue times didn't go up; they went up now because for heroics, there are too few people who want to tank or heal compared to people who want to DPS.
This isn't new: The same thing happened when the ICC heroics came out, and people weren't overgeared for them. These heroics were hard enough that tanks were not willing to join without more gear, so they'd queue as DPS, and therefore there was just a bad ratio of tanks.
If you want to see the situation get better: start tanking or healing. Tank queue is instant. Healer queue is 5 minutes. Stop contributing to the problem, and become part of the solution -- or accept that this is just what things are like at the beginning of a tier, and cope.
JB Jan 13th 2011 11:34AM
I would love to tank again - went DPS because the old guild I was in had an oversupply of tanks. However, to get in to tanking again at level 81is a nightmare. PuG don't have "time" or patience for a "noob" tank... So the DPS are also creating the problem. People can be real jerks...
Anyways, my 2 coppers worth....
Alchemistmerlin Jan 12th 2011 7:38PM
Dear Blizzard,
I would find it a lot easier to communicate with my group if
a) the quality of the community you have crafted wasn't...well...what it is.
b) a large portion of my battlegroup wasn't non-english speaking. I haven't encountered this yet in Cata, but in Wrath it was a bit difficult to do a dungeon across the language barrier.
Alchemistmerlin Jan 12th 2011 7:47PM
Oh, I guess they merged the battlegroups now?
Well color me dumbfounded.
Point A still stands.
crschmidt Jan 12th 2011 7:54PM
The battlegroups are all merged now for the purposes of battlegrounds + dungeon finder, and as a result, I think they try harder not to group across language boundaries. (I think that it's not a hard-and-fast rule, but I have only been grouped with players from non-English speaking location once, after an 8 minute queue for one DPS. I don't know what we were doing wrong, but that usually means the dungeon finder is just ready to find anyone to fill that slot.)
Supapaw Jan 13th 2011 7:10AM
Patch notes 4.0.7: "we are nerfing the raid bosses too, so the baddies can raid as well."
Urugri Jan 12th 2011 9:14PM
"Heroics are supposed to be hard, but in patch 4.0.6, we're making them significantly easier."
I am pretty sure these changes are more intended to balance the skill level required among the heroic bosses, some bosses at the moment are much harder than others. e.g Ozruk's changes are not game changing, its not like tanks can eat shatter now and stand in the ground slam. Some bosses were easier than others, this round is about setting the standard. Heroics are not SIGNIFICANTLY easier because of these changes, a few bosses abilities have been changed/removed, that is all. The only change I dont agree with is Mend Rotting Flesh, this encounter is easy enough with 2 interrupts on rotation, 3 is nice but not required and most groups ive been in havent really struggled with him anyway. I liked the idea of a boss fight completely revolving around interrupts.