Ghostcrawler responds to heroic dungeon difficulty complaints

Like I said, it's an epic post, and we won't reprint the whole thing here. This, however, is the key takeaway:
Wow, Dungeons are Hard!The bottom line is that we want Heroics and raids to be challenging, and that is particularly true now while the content is new and characters are still collecting gear. They're only going to get easier from here on out. We want players to approach an encounter, especially a Heroic encounter, as a puzzle to be solved. We want groups to communicate and strategize. And by extension, we want you to celebrate when you win instead of it being a foregone conclusion.
On the other hand, we don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they're doing. We don't want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players. While at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.
Ultimately, we don't want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success, because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategize.
On the other hand, we don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they're doing. We don't want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players. While at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.
Ultimately, we don't want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success, because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategize.
All that being said, though, is Blizzard really satisfied with its dungeon designs and their current level of difficulty? Hard heroics are indeed hard, but the updated PTR patch notes for 4.0.6 (which went live just yesterday at almost the exact same time Ghostcrawler was discussing heroics) indicate that a series of nerfs is coming our way. That will no doubt lead to player rejoicing, but remember -- heroics are naturally getting easier as people get more familiar with them and players continue to compile better gear, which makes completion even easier still.
When patch 4.0.6 goes live (presumably in a couple of weeks), Baron Ashbury will no longer cast Mend Rotten Flesh. Beauty will lose one of her puppies, the poor thing. Every single boss fight in the Stonecore (IMO, the most dreaded of all the heroics) will be nerfed -- Corborus will jump less, High Priestess Azil's adds will die more easily, and Slabhide will drop fewer rocks upon your collective heads. Admittedly, some of these fights were clearly in need of a fix -- Ashbury is a nightmare with some group compositions. Still, it's an interesting mixed message: "Heroics are supposed to be hard, but in patch 4.0.6, we're making them significantly easier."
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Reader Comments (Page 9 of 9)
Toliman Jan 17th 2011 4:02AM
oh boy, you can't really compare normal runs to heroics. at 81, stonecore is fun, BRC is a little ugly at times, but it's ultimately fun with a few blue items equipped. you can burn through bosses with their weakened mechanics.
10 man marrowgar, without the ICC buff, is on par with a 5-man heroic boss you'd find in cataclysm. if you miss an interrupt 2 or 3 minutes into the fight, the group will die, and have to run back. again. and again. and again. and again. the mechanic that causes the healer to OOM and the group to wipe, in a normal version, will wipe the group within seconds in heroics.
e.g. i went into a guild run of deadmines, it took 1 1/2 hours. shadowfang keep, under an hour. then, after that success, decided to reroll and got grim batol, it took 2 1/2 hours and some hilarious mistakes later. Even with ~340 and ~350 geared players, who have done it before, there's just way too much reliance on snares, interrupts and root/fears that you just won't have.
a guild member in the first week of cataclysm, spent 5 hours in heroic throne of tides, having to swap out 40 players along the way. that's not heroic, that's brutal.
my thinking is, some heroics are based upon players with tier 11 gear, and the ilevel restrictions are simply incorrect at this point,
besides opening heroics to players who just stepped out of twilight highlands with a lucky gear drop or 4, you should have to at least gained an achievement for the normal mode first before you can queue for the heroic. that would save a lot of grief for everyone.
Shata Feb 8th 2011 8:10AM
Ghostcrawler, I'm afraid you just messed up. The ratio time/reward is totally off the mark and the time/reward/fun ratio isn't so hot either.
I wasn't a casual before cata. Now I can't (won't) sign up for a PUG that's gonna take 2/3+ hours because I don't have 2/3+ hours, so I feel left out. I don't run with my guild, because they all had the time and now if I run with them I feel like they're 'rushing' me and I feel bad. So here I am one of the main guild healers in wrath and I can't equip to raid.
2/3+ hours used to be raid run!!!!
It's not a question of hard or easy, its a question of time. Nobody likes to waste their time and some of us don't even have the time to begin to waste!
You need to change the time/reward/fun ratio. Remove the heroic cap and add some sort of valor point cap. Make some heroics longer and some shorter. Allow us 'time-restricted' to choose. That way if you run fast you can do more heroics but with the same return on valor points, but us 'casuals' can run something!
Sorry for posting here you guys, they won't let me post on the us.battlenet and I'm sure Ghostcrawler doesnt read the spanish forums in sunny spain
Kensdisguise Feb 8th 2011 12:15PM
Please STOP.
The boards were full of people QQing when the WotLK runs were speed runs and everyone had the same gear, and now they are full of QQing about how all the fun is gone because they don't all have the BiS gear and the Cata release has been live for over a whole month now. (OMG, the madness)
Here are two words for most of you to think about:
instant gratification
The best part about this game is that you can always "Not log on". I for one LOVE what they have done and are doing for the most popular MMO on the planet.
/throws in 2cents