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1-12-2011 @ 5:09PM
Now if they'd only fix the load screens taking 2 full minutes between where I'm at and dungeon transitions, the latency issues with most of the North American ISP's and the 40 minute wait as a DPS, that will make Cata the best release yet! :)
1-12-2011 @ 5:31PM
The 40 minute wait for dps isn't something Blizzard can fix, but it is something you can fix. Just stop being collectively bad. There are tons of great tanks out there (myself included) that love tanking and are completely put off from the RDF. The only time I queued by myself post Cataclysm had a healer with almost no spirit gear and 3 dps that refused to do any CC or follow a kill order. In 10 minutes they kicked me for being bad =/. I almost wanted to say "sorry guys, let's get a time machine and I'll be able to spam swipe and mangle every gcd and carry you through your mistakes again."TL;DR - RDF is a nightmare and the only way more tanks will queue is if the skill level of the community as a whole improves.
1-12-2011 @ 5:39PM
One person can't 'collectively' do anything... because they're one person.
1-12-2011 @ 5:58PM
I tank tonnes of RFD groups. My experience is pure PuGs are fine, and almost always listen to instructions, and are patient with CC/LoS pulling ect...What is almost IMPOSSIBLE is joining a premade. They won't listen, they will pull for you, and will be obnoxious. Pre-mades are almost 100% fail when I join them as a tank.
1-12-2011 @ 6:12PM
@skod/agree... to a point. But tanks can be just as much to blame now...I'm a healer, always have been (since vanilla), and I really am enjoying healing now in Cata, too. But I have had plenty of groups where the dps just couldn't shoulder the blame (at least not all of it). I had a bear tank that took so much damage from a two mob pull that I burned my entire mana pool single target healing him and as soon as I went oom he died. He was clearly undergeared. We actually booted the tank we had in BRC a few days ago because he wouldn't listen to anyone and pulled like he was in Wrath. The last time I randomed in to VP, the tank kept pulling when I had no mana (or even better was still back at the last kill site drinking), we had a lock AND a hunter but tank didn't want any CC and I spent the entire first third of the dungeon chasing them and playing catch up. They'd be almost dead when I got there and I'd burn through my whole pool (being incredibly inefficient) to save them, and then they run off to the next while I'm trying to recover. They even pulled the boss like this. After we downed him (and nobody died) I got called terribad and the group splintered.Point is, I know I'm not the only one encountering group dynamics like this. We ALL need to learn to work together better. Even if you think you don't need to CC an encounter, if the group can, you should probably do it anyway. It makes it easier on everyone, gives fewer opportunities for mistakes, and keeps the group going smoother. It's a lot faster to wait an extra 5 or 10 seconds to mark, employ CC, and not wipe than the alternative.Of course, the flip side is when you do luck in to that group that just clicks, it's so much FUN! Those are the groups that keep me rolling the dice in the RDF when my guild doesn't need me.
1-12-2011 @ 7:23PM
thebl4ckd0g, for every story like yours there's one about a tank who charges in without thought to CC or pulls 3 groups of MoBs, and then rage quits after screaming at the rest of the group for being bad and causing the wipe. Bad players aren't the cause of the the long DPS queues. The issue is that tanking and healing require a different play style, skill set and level of responsibility than DPS which isn't as popular with the player base as the DPS role is. DPS pretty much have to learn their rotation, not stand in the fire, and watch for DBM alerts to tell them when to turn away/stop DPSing/Run. And when they screw up and die there's a decent chance their screwup isn't going to cause a wipe as they can get a BR and instantly be back in the fight or the rest of the group can step up and push a bit harder and still finish the fight without them.Tanks however have to know the instance much more intimately than a DPS to know things like proper mob positioning, which MoBs are casters and healers so they can mark them correctly and proceed with the correct kill order, if there's a pat that will come along halfway through the fight and wipe the group, when a burst attack is coming to blow survivability cooldowns, when adds are going to come so they can be picked up before they tear after the healer, ect. And if a tank screws up and dies as a result, the rest of the group is usually toast as even with a BR, the tank likely isn't going to be able to reestablish agro fast enough to prevent a wipe and unlike DPS, you aren't 1/3 of the role in the group, you're 100% of it and the others can't finish the fight without you. Healers have to know when burst damage is going to occur and have a heal incoming when it lands, they have to watch everyone else for incoming AoE damage or people hit by ground effects, they have to react quickly to unanticipated damage on both the tank and the rest of the group, they have to watch their threat not only on the mob being tanked but all the other mobs and hope the tank is doing the same, etc. And like tanks, if they screw up, it usually means the group wipes as they carry 100% of the responsibility for that role. Those are issues Blizzard *could* address (in any of 1000 possible ways, none of which would be perfect), but they either have not yet felt a need/desire to do so or, they haven't yet decided on how to go about it if they have. But it's not something "not being bad" is going to address in any significant way.
1-12-2011 @ 8:01PM
@Silversol"One person can't 'collectively' do anything... because they're one person."I absolutely hate that your post was uprated, because you're wrong. Sure, one person alone won't make much of a difference. But not doing anything, because they're one person, will make even *less* of a difference. When people work towards the same goal, be it independently or together, then the struggle becomes easier. Do what you can because you must, for the good of all of us.I wholly expect my comment to turn dark gray.
1-12-2011 @ 9:05PM
problem solved herehttp://dagobah.net/flash/autotune.swf
1-12-2011 @ 10:24PM
@AvanYou can't be a collective as one person, by definition you're not a collective, you're an individual, I believe you missed the entire point."A collective is a group of entities that share or are motivated by at least one common issue or interest, or work together on a specific project(s) to achieve a common objective."
1-13-2011 @ 12:28PM
@skodnoiseAs DPS (warlock) I'm constantly bailing out PUG tanks from LFD. I've switched my bindings, re-glyphed, and added macros just to bail out the never-ending line of fail tanks I get from LFD. 90% of my PUGs have come with tanks who cheated LFD for instant queues, chock full of DPS and PvP gear, and/or who /ragequit at the first wipe after running around not waiting for CC or the healer to have mana. I'm so sick and tired of these elitist crap tanks posting online and finding them in-game who are just awful and blame DPS for everything, like they can do no wrong. I've almost got my old and neglected Protection Paladin into Cata content just so I don't have to deal with it anymore. @ecwfrk As DPS I need to know more then just how to pew pew and not stand in fire, which by the way ALL CLASSES NEED TO KNOW! Countless wipes to idiot tanks who just stand in ground effects expecting the healer to bail them out. As DPS I need to CC and maintain it, even after the tank Avenger's Shield/Thunderclaps/Death & Decays, Pestilence, Blood Boil/Swipes, or bad DPS AoEs instead of attacking the tank's target to break it. I need to be able to do this even if the tank doesn't mark and just pulls to avoid group wipes. And when I do CC, I need to pay attention to 2+ mobs at once to be effective at it. I need to know the battles to know which adds I pick up and nuke (Grim Batol is a perfect example). I need to know the mechanics of the fight to know to run away or move in when necessary to make it easier on the healer. I need to manage my resources effectively. I need to know when I can help out the healer or the tank, such as pulling an add of the heals the tank has missed and moving them back by the tank so they can pick it up again, and Soulshattering away the threat I've generated. If my class has interrupts I need to know when to use them. I need to self-heal/pop cooldowns to make the healer's job easier, along with not standing in things that hurt me. I need to supply raid buffs like Heroism if my class has it and at the correct time.Tanking is not harder and requires no more paying attention then any other class in a Heroic. Your job is threat and staying alive. You need to pay attention to the other party members to make sure they're ready for a pull, to pull threat back off them with your taunts, to pop your cooldowns or interrupts to stay alive, and mostly just smack something. If you're a more well-rounded tank, you need to mark too, but that's 99.9% of the time looking at your group for what CC you have and appropriately marking the casters of the mob. Positioning isn't hard once you know what the mob/boss does and all classes have to do it, not just the tank. Heroics are not hard, they simply require some coordination within the party. And these PTR changes aren't really nerfs (in fact some are adding more effects and/or damage), they're tuning. A mid-instance boss should not be 5 times harder than the end boss. A boss should not require 3 class of interrupts be available or the fight is next to impossible. LFD doesn't allow for picking and choosing, and every heroic should be able to be completed with a PUG group from LFD, and not just be a lolzAoEspam 15minute romp.
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