Should level-capped players be put into content they outgear?

On a recent guild-sponsored alt run, four not-ready-for-heroics players and my level 85 shammy queued up for a random Cataclysm dungeon. We wound up with The Stonecore. We immediately decided that we didn't want to run The Stonecore, but we also didn't want to just wait the 15 minutes to requeue. So, we cleared our way to the first boss and defeated it, successfully eating up the 15 minutes.
Not wanting to actually finish an instance that didn't offer us any level-appropriate gear, we re-entered the random dungeon finder. The result: The Stonecore. Again. We gave up, ran the instance for the lousy 70 justice point payoff, and died a little inside.
A huge part of my distaste for The Stonecore is related to how often it comes up in the random dungeon finder on both heroic and normal versions. It's a wipe-filled nightmare on heroic, especially with a group that doesn't know what it's doing. (And let's be honest, text-based communication on the fly can only get you so far.) I have no complaint about getting regular Stonecore at levels 82 and 83. The problem is that I get it all the damn time when I'm level 85, and Blizzard gives me almost no incentive to finish it.
As of patch 4.0.6, players will be able to queue for Blackrock Caverns and Throne of the Tides at levels 84 and 85. That's great news, especially in light of what Ghostcrawler (lead systems designer) said about heroic design. Aspiring tanks and healers should absolutely try BRC and ToT on normal before running it on heroic. The current design in which you can't queue for it once you pass level 83 makes no sense, especially when you consider that some players won't even find the two instances until they're well past level 83.
But there was one interesting note regarding the change -- you still won't be thrown into either Blackrock Caverns or Throne of the Tides randomly at level 85. The reasoning is obvious: For players trying to gear up for heroics, being put in either BRC or ToT feels like a waste of time due to the painfully low item levels of the gear available there. Blackrock Caverns bosses drop item level 308 gear. To get into a random heroic, you need to have an average item level of 329. You can see the disconnect.
But if that's a concern for Blizzard, why am I still being put into Stonecore at level 85? That instance drops item level 316 gear, which is just as worthless to my level 85 characters. And while we're on that subject, Vortex Pinnacle drops naught but 316 gear too. Why would I want my alts saddled with either of these dungeons at level 85?
The answer, I suspect, is this: "It's not fun to be so severely limited by your random choices." If you limit your choices at level 85 to only gear that will get you into heroics, you're only choosing from a pool of three instances. If Blizzard wants to give you variety, though, what's the rationale for keeping Blackrock Caverns and Throne of Tides out of the random mix? Why put the player smack in the middle of some outdated content and yet keep them out of the rest of it?
Finding a solution to satisfy everyone is difficult. If players are looking for a specific piece of gear, they line up for a specific instance. Best I can tell, those who are running random instances at level 85 are looking for two things: the 70 justice point bonus and fun. You hope for an instance that will award you with gear, of course, but if gear is all you care about, you wouldn't have gambled with a random.
Perhaps running random instances as a level 85 should offer characters justice points with every boss kill? Not the 70 points you get out of heroic runs, but surely it'd be okay to award 25 points each or so. What's the harm in giving players extra incentive? The use of justice points is extremely limited -- primarily heirlooms and level 346 blues. You're not breaking the game economy here. You're giving players a reason to run your content, even if the gear is trash. And if you were the Blizzard designer who came up with and put all that effort into Blackrock Caverns, wouldn't you want more players enjoying your hard work?
Blizzard has painted itself into something of a corner with the design of Cataclysm heroics. Because they're so difficult, players are expected to farm non-heroic instances for better gear. At the same time, however, Blizzard is emphasizing a "heroics are not necessarily for everybody" policy, encouraging more casual and faceroll-hungry players to stick to normals. Players with two different goals are being thrown together, and Blizzard hasn't made its best effort to keep everyone happy. If Blizzard is serious about heroics not being for everybody, maybe it should start including Blackrock Caverns and Thrones of Tides. And if the only reason why it is not putting us in BRC and ToT is the gear, then for the love of Yogg Saron, please stop putting me into The Stonecore. I beg of you.
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm has destroyed Azeroth as we know it; nothing is the same! In WoW Insider's Guide to Cataclysm, you can find out everything you need to know about WoW's third expansion, from leveling up a new goblin or worgen to breaking news and strategies on endgame play.Filed under: Cataclysm






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 8)
Straz Jan 13th 2011 8:04PM
I absolutely LOATHE Stonecore.
Gossamer Jan 13th 2011 8:23PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way. I feel like that place is stalking me...
Poltergeist Jan 14th 2011 1:28AM
Looking back in hindsight, all 7 of the new dungeons should have had normal modes for level 85 players, with appropriate ilvl 333 gear in each dungeon. It would have made the phase between first hitting end game and being heroic-ready a lot more fun and a lot less monotonous.
Boobah Jan 14th 2011 2:34AM
Your assertion that heroics aren't worth it because the items are blue seems to me kinda silly, since it appears that in Cataclysm there isn't really any difference in the item budget of different colored items of the same iLvl (although, admittedly, there aren't any purples that I know of below i359.)
Guy Jan 14th 2011 3:07AM
I also hate Stonecore. I got it tonight, and left. Instead of waiting the 15 minutes, I went and queued up for Heroic Deadmines, since I already did the Heroic for the day, I didn't need the 70 VP, and with 6 Deadmines bosses, I can get 420 JP. Almost any other random even with the 70 bonus still will give me less than DM, and DM is much less likely to make us wipe (we only wiped once, during the nightmare).
I like the idea of like 25 JP per boss if at 85. I am in all 346 gear or better except for a 333 trinket (which I can't get with JP) and 333 legs. Of all my gear, only my shield, relic (which is now 359) and chest were used with JP, everything else was rep gear, or drops. So a few extra JP isn't going to ruin things.
If Blizz doesn't want to give JP, how about giving rep on more normals than just Halls, Grim Batol and Lost City. If I could get rep from Stonecore, or other lower instance, then I might not mid as much.
Noctune Jan 14th 2011 3:56AM
There is a corelation between your Gear iLevel and what dungeon your ending up in.
with that said there is a reason why some ppl end up more often in some instances then others. the order goes as i figured it.
[ [ BrC, ToT], [Sc], [Vp, HoO, LcT], [Gb] ]
what does this have to do with me ending up in SC all the time?
well considering BrC / ToT is below your treshhold and atleast one in the group got realy realy bad gear then you often end up in Sc.
it whould also mean by the end of the expansion you will if you que up for a normal run often end up in Gb.
What i realy want is a three modes for all dungeons
easy mode (ToT/BrC/ etc) usable < lv85
normal mode all dungeons created for players lv85
Heroic mode all dungeons on HC level (as today)
what work whould it require of blizzard for all instances below the lv333 cap
* well they have to duplicate the area
* level up the mobs abit
* create new itemized items (i think thats pretty easy)
* add another layer of the HC/Normal/Easy mode dungones
* they could even add the Easy mode to raids to but then only give VP/JP for the kills no purple loot.
but anyway i feel there is very few instances this "expansion" compared to BC or Wrath there is very little options for thoes not HC ready. once your HC ready you got more options.
(not that i can understand HOW you can't be HC ready?) i have now leveled 2 chars to 85 and both of them with very little (2 pieces of AH / Vendor gear) got over the Cap. ofc i play smart getting honored with atleast 3 factions while leveing. and aiming for Quest rewards from Uldum / Twilight Highland and spending < 2000g on AH will get you over the cap (with cheap pvp gear and blues) and you gain over 4000g while leving that bit so the money shouldn't be an issue.
Deathknighty Jan 14th 2011 4:07AM
I absolutely LOVE Stonecore.
Thundrcrackr Jan 14th 2011 12:40PM
Yeah, the problem is that we have too few non-heroic dungeons basically being split into two groups: leveling dungeons and 85 dungeons. They should have just made them all 85 dungeons. With only 5 levels in Cata, getting to max level is so fast you don't even need leveling dungeons. I did nothing but quest and was only half way through the Cata content when I hit 85. I quested through Vashjir, Deepholm, and half of Twilight Highlands. I still had half of Twilight Highlands left and hadn't even touched Mt. Hyjal, Uldum, or Tol Barad yet. I would much rather have those leveling dungeons be relevant at max level where i need them, rather than have them be accessible at lower levels where i don't need them.
Hopefully Blizz will add more 85 dungeons with future content patches.
Ventura Jan 13th 2011 8:04PM
That's funny, I've actually been trying to get Stonecore on normal and I keep getting Halls of Origination. Still haven't seen Stonecore.
vinniedcleaner Jan 13th 2011 9:22PM
I'm beginning to think HoO is the only dungeon in the game
wutsconflag Jan 13th 2011 9:44PM
@vinniedcleaner:
Seems like I get Halls of Origination 4 out of 5 randoms, too. Seriously, I'm keeping track on a scratchpad.
Léona Jan 13th 2011 10:36PM
Halls of stone...halls of lightning...halls of origination....
Bit of a trend with the dungeon finder going on here.
Helston Jan 14th 2011 1:37AM
You forgot the Halls of Reflection (one of the instances in the Frozen Halls)
Dillioney Jan 14th 2011 2:52AM
Same here, never been in Stoncore. I only get Halls and the Kitty Cat one.
I havnt got one piece of usable gear in the normals so its fun (sometimes), rep and jp for me.
At least the queue times seem to be coming down for DPS.... (blades edge EU)
Evil Midnight Lurker Jan 14th 2011 3:53AM
One of these days we'll find ourselves in the Halls of Medicine...
Comito Jan 14th 2011 4:19AM
Oh I'm so getting HoO as well! Its pretty long with alot of mini bosses located in that instance!
kingerz Jan 14th 2011 7:16AM
Anything with "Halls" in the name is bad bad bad...
Nina Katarina Jan 14th 2011 7:49AM
I'm (slowly) bringing up a pally tank alt, and I've decided to only let her discover the instances that I feel capable of handling on heroic. So far that's Halls of Org and Lost City. So I'll never get a different random normal, and on random heroic it's either those two or SFK or Deadmines. I suspect I'm not the only person who figured out this angle to the 'must discover dungeon before you can queue for it' game.
I'm saving Stonecore for second-to-last, Grim Batol for last.
nomadic0ne Jan 14th 2011 10:01AM
Patch 4.3.0.1b notes:
New Dungeon!
Halls of Corridors
The Angry Intern Jan 14th 2011 1:35PM
I seem to have only been able to see HoO, Vortex and Stonecore so far for Heroics. None of the other ones have come up yet.