Should level-capped players be put into content they outgear?

On a recent guild-sponsored alt run, four not-ready-for-heroics players and my level 85 shammy queued up for a random Cataclysm dungeon. We wound up with The Stonecore. We immediately decided that we didn't want to run The Stonecore, but we also didn't want to just wait the 15 minutes to requeue. So, we cleared our way to the first boss and defeated it, successfully eating up the 15 minutes.
Not wanting to actually finish an instance that didn't offer us any level-appropriate gear, we re-entered the random dungeon finder. The result: The Stonecore. Again. We gave up, ran the instance for the lousy 70 justice point payoff, and died a little inside.
A huge part of my distaste for The Stonecore is related to how often it comes up in the random dungeon finder on both heroic and normal versions. It's a wipe-filled nightmare on heroic, especially with a group that doesn't know what it's doing. (And let's be honest, text-based communication on the fly can only get you so far.) I have no complaint about getting regular Stonecore at levels 82 and 83. The problem is that I get it all the damn time when I'm level 85, and Blizzard gives me almost no incentive to finish it.
As of patch 4.0.6, players will be able to queue for Blackrock Caverns and Throne of the Tides at levels 84 and 85. That's great news, especially in light of what Ghostcrawler (lead systems designer) said about heroic design. Aspiring tanks and healers should absolutely try BRC and ToT on normal before running it on heroic. The current design in which you can't queue for it once you pass level 83 makes no sense, especially when you consider that some players won't even find the two instances until they're well past level 83.
But there was one interesting note regarding the change -- you still won't be thrown into either Blackrock Caverns or Throne of the Tides randomly at level 85. The reasoning is obvious: For players trying to gear up for heroics, being put in either BRC or ToT feels like a waste of time due to the painfully low item levels of the gear available there. Blackrock Caverns bosses drop item level 308 gear. To get into a random heroic, you need to have an average item level of 329. You can see the disconnect.
But if that's a concern for Blizzard, why am I still being put into Stonecore at level 85? That instance drops item level 316 gear, which is just as worthless to my level 85 characters. And while we're on that subject, Vortex Pinnacle drops naught but 316 gear too. Why would I want my alts saddled with either of these dungeons at level 85?
The answer, I suspect, is this: "It's not fun to be so severely limited by your random choices." If you limit your choices at level 85 to only gear that will get you into heroics, you're only choosing from a pool of three instances. If Blizzard wants to give you variety, though, what's the rationale for keeping Blackrock Caverns and Throne of Tides out of the random mix? Why put the player smack in the middle of some outdated content and yet keep them out of the rest of it?
Finding a solution to satisfy everyone is difficult. If players are looking for a specific piece of gear, they line up for a specific instance. Best I can tell, those who are running random instances at level 85 are looking for two things: the 70 justice point bonus and fun. You hope for an instance that will award you with gear, of course, but if gear is all you care about, you wouldn't have gambled with a random.
Perhaps running random instances as a level 85 should offer characters justice points with every boss kill? Not the 70 points you get out of heroic runs, but surely it'd be okay to award 25 points each or so. What's the harm in giving players extra incentive? The use of justice points is extremely limited -- primarily heirlooms and level 346 blues. You're not breaking the game economy here. You're giving players a reason to run your content, even if the gear is trash. And if you were the Blizzard designer who came up with and put all that effort into Blackrock Caverns, wouldn't you want more players enjoying your hard work?
Blizzard has painted itself into something of a corner with the design of Cataclysm heroics. Because they're so difficult, players are expected to farm non-heroic instances for better gear. At the same time, however, Blizzard is emphasizing a "heroics are not necessarily for everybody" policy, encouraging more casual and faceroll-hungry players to stick to normals. Players with two different goals are being thrown together, and Blizzard hasn't made its best effort to keep everyone happy. If Blizzard is serious about heroics not being for everybody, maybe it should start including Blackrock Caverns and Thrones of Tides. And if the only reason why it is not putting us in BRC and ToT is the gear, then for the love of Yogg Saron, please stop putting me into The Stonecore. I beg of you.
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 8)
Pfinferno Jan 14th 2011 3:39PM
I'm just waiting for all the utilitarian areas to finally pop up in the dungeon finder.
Halls of the Break Area
Halls of Bookcases
Halls of the Bathrooms
Halls That Don't Really Lead Anywhere
Halls of the Emergency Exit
Mario Jan 13th 2011 8:06PM
It's definitely the new oculus, well...in a way.
Elmouth Jan 13th 2011 9:24PM
It's nowhere near early Occulus, Stonecore is fairly easy.
On topic, grouping higher levels with lower levels is so they can help them out, not everyone runs in premades.
So sick of people running with premades and complaining about crap, the game is centered around pugs, get over it.
Eregos ftw! Jan 13th 2011 9:57PM
@Elmouth
First off, it's Oculus. No CC. Just C, thank you.
Second of all, he meant it in that the instance is generally hated by the general population of WoW. And Stonecore is actually harder then Oculus, simply because Cata dungeons are harder then Wrath dungeons.
Third off, people in WoW generally don't WANT to help people out when it means loss of time and gear to them. I sure don't, unless it's a guildie I'm helping out. So, in general, people will leave after 15 minutes of rep to try and get a different dungeon.
Straz Jan 13th 2011 10:01PM
How can you say the game is centered around PuGs? Guild perks and the upcoming guild reputation changes speak otherwise. Read some of the CM posts in regards to people complaining about bad PuGs and the sort. Even the CMs post that it would behoove the posters to find a guild that matches their personality and play style.
The new LFD function was implemented because the original version of it was terrible. Dungeon Finder was implemented to benefit pre-mades and PuGs alike.
John Christopher Jan 13th 2011 10:10PM
At least occulus gave you a bag of extra rewards at the end. HoO doesn't really give you that bonus cache of goodies.
Saeadame Jan 13th 2011 11:04PM
@John - yeah but of the 7 bosses in HoO, you only actually have to kill three of them to finish the instance, all the others are optional.
Ickabob Jan 13th 2011 8:10PM
I never once got Stonecore at 85.... Its always Grim Batol or Halls of Origination. Maybe I'm lucky? I wouldn't mind stonecore, though, that drake mount seems tempting.
Aurigo Jan 13th 2011 8:25PM
Hey, me neither. I couldn't into any 84-85 instances before 85 (with random), and now that I am 85, I have never gotten the 81-85 instances.
Noyou Jan 13th 2011 9:59PM
It seems odd that you can't queue for lower dungeons once at 85. Gear should enable you to hit more not less content. If someone wants to do 81-83 dungeons after 85 that should be their right to. Especially in cases where people don't set foot in them until they hit 85. I know the focus is on guild guild guild, but still this seems rather controlling.
Rando Jan 14th 2011 3:46AM
Yeah, every single dungeon I get is Grim Batol. It's become so bad I quit nearly everytime I get it.
Ventura Jan 13th 2011 8:11PM
Also agree on Justice points, there should be another way to obtain them besides random dungeons, especially as you said when the same dungeon keeps coming up repeatedly. Makes the game get boring really fast. Allready sick of HoO and I've only done three runs through it.
Matthew Jan 14th 2011 2:42AM
As far as regular dungeons go, you don't need to hit random dungeon, nor do you need Justice Points. You can queue for specific dungeons and gear up through them until you hit the required item level. It'd actually be a lot more effective - the 70 justice points for running a reg is just not worth it if you're not getting any gear at all out of it.
Same goes for heroics, actually. Aside from the first random, it's more effective to queue for dungeons that drop pieces you need. Justice Point gear is equal to heroic dungeon gear, so doing specific runs and then using the points from bosses to round out your gear will get you raid-ready a lot faster than hitting random will.
That said, I disagree that there should be a way to get points aside from dungeons. The gear is for running dungeons and raid - if you're not doing that, you don't really need the gear at all. And skipping the dungeons to jump right to raiding is not a good idea, because the former teaches the skills required for the latter.
Rob Jan 14th 2011 10:12AM
Except that at least on our battlegroup the queues are not instant for a specific dungeon. That's the main reason I'm a tank and I do randoms.
Aanar Jan 13th 2011 8:15PM
Actually, Stonecore is one of my favorite dungeons. It's tough but not impossible, and it really challenges almost all aspects of the group equally (although it is hard on the tank but since that's me I don't mind ;p ). The incoming nerfs make me sad...it's hard to see good content go easymode.
Stilhelm Jan 13th 2011 8:59PM
It's not so much nerfs coming to Stonecore but clarifications. Since the first boss can one-shot you when he jumps, it makes sense that it looks different than all the other dust on the ground. Also, I don't view the ground effect display for Shatter a nerf either, but a useful clarification of how far you have to go to avoid it.
Nick Jan 14th 2011 3:31AM
I'm unfortunate enough to have never been in there on heroic from the start. I've started at the rock golem dude and at the dragon, but never at the very beginning with the worm.
I'm assuming the worm is what causes all the problems, or the trash before him? The dragon is easy, the final boss is easy. The rock golem dude isn't easy but so long as your tank knows whats going on or is able to learn then you have no real issues there either.
Konstantin Jan 13th 2011 8:17PM
QQ MOAR lame wow.joystiq.com writer!!!
Kurash Jan 13th 2011 8:25PM
If that was supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek joke then you are missing the little smiley face.
If it's serious then congratulations on taking the time to read the article of a writer you think is lame.
Baba Jan 14th 2011 8:18AM
I didn't read it, I skimmed.
And I don't really get Fox's issue. If the random DF is getting your bollocks in a twist, then queue for specifics... As a dps it's only an extra 5 minutes on top of 35, and as a tank you get a few seconds to scratch your nose before the DF dings.
Plus the Stonecore is a really good instance, especially the dragon boss