Know Your Lore: Honor, Krom'gar. Never forsake it.

I spent a very long time in Northrend, Krom'gar. I learned much about the Horde in that time. While there, a wise old war hero told me something that I would carry with me forever...
"Honor," Krom'gar, "No matter how dire the battle... never forsake it."
The Stonetalon Mountains, nestled in the heart of western Kalimdor, are one such location that's come under heavy fire from both sides. Formerly home to the Venture Company, the Stonetalon Mountains are now under contention by both sides, in an effort to grab what resources and land are immediately available. For the Alliance, it's a harder fight than previously thought. Not only is the Alliance dealing with Horde forces, they're also dealing with an ancient evil lurking beneath Stonetalon Peak.

What's interesting about Stonetalon Peak isn't just the story -- it's the shift in attitude. It doesn't just serve to highlight what's been going on in the Stonetalon area; it serves to highlight what's going on in the Horde itself. Gone are the days when NPCs quietly beseech you to help heal the Charred Vale. Now as a member of the Horde, players are expected to arm land mines in order to blow up any night elves encroaching on Horde outposts. The shove for supremacy is strong here, just as it was in the snowy hills of Icecrown.
In Icecrown, the Horde forces sought to not only wipe out the Scourge that served the Lich King, but also the Alliance forces, even though the Alliance forces had the same goal in mind: to destroy the Lich King and his army once and for all. The lunacy of the situation didn't occur to the Horde. It was simply a matter of wiping out their enemies, even when those enemies were at their weakest. Especially when those enemies were at their weakest.

Horde scouts reported that the night elves were preparing their own weapons of mass destruction and hiding them within an ancient tree to the north. Since the bomb could not be used on Windshear Hold, it was flown instead to Cliffwalker Post. Cliffwalker Post was a small tauren outpost situated high above Battlescar Valley, where fighting between the Alliance and Horde armies had reached a brutal climax. But upon arrival at Cliffwalker Post, a startling revelation was made by the tauren that called this area their home.
The night elves weren't holding weapons of any kind. In fact, the night elves of the area were young druids in training, and the ancient tree was nothing more than a druid grove called Thal'darah. Druids, both night elf and tauren, studied there together for generations, and there was no reason to suspect that these nature-loving creatures would do anything to destroy the fragile land around them. High Chieftain Cliffwalker tried to convince the Horde General of this, but General Grebo wouldn't hear of it, accusing Cliffwalker of treason -- and so the High Chieftain sent his son Orthus into the valley to speak with the night elves thereand prove that the druids had no weapons of any kind.

Players sent to meet Orthus manage to find the young tauren -- or what remained of him. The glade itself was full of frightened young druids, running in terror with nowhere really to go. Armies of Alliance and Horde surrounded the glade, and the sounds of battle ripped through the air, the little druid glade trapped smack in the middle of it all. Orthus lay dead at the top of the ancient tree along with several night elf bodies. There were no weapons in sight, no obvious signs of foul play, but Orthus' dead hand clutched an insignia. Not an Alliance insignia -- the insignia of a Krom'gar General. Grebo's insignia.
High Chieftain Cliffwalker was furious. His son had been betrayed, murdered by the Horde who supposedly followed an honorable path. He ordered his wife to leave, but she refused to leave her husband's side. After giving the insignia back to General Grebo, High Chieftain Cliffwalker let the general know that his lies had been exposed. Instead of apologizing for his actions, the general called Cliffwalker a coward, spineless and a disgrace to the Horde, and attacked the Chieftain and his wife. Forced to defend themselves, the Cliffwalkers killed General Grebo.

Cliffwalker's wife was the first to fall to Krom'gar's army, the small tents and huts at the outpost set ablaze. And as High Chieftain Cliffwalker watched in horror, Overlord Krom'gar ordered the bomb released to Thal'darah Grove, forcing the chieftain to watch as it detonated and destroyed the ancient tree as well as the few frightened druids that remained behind. Women, children, innocents ... all dead, and a smoking crater was all that remained of the druid's precious grove. And as Overlord Krom'gar gloated over his victorious plans, a newcomer arrived on the scene. Warchief Hellscream.
Overlord Krom'gar says: Warchief! I... I was carrying out your command!
Garrosh Hellscream says: My command? Was my command to murder innocents, Krom'gar?
Overlord Krom'gar says: Warchief... Sir... I...
Garrosh Hellscream says: Am I a murderer, Krom'gar?
Overlord Krom'gar says: No, Warchief!
Garrosh Hellscream says: Then I ask you again: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!
Krom'gar begins to cower before Garrosh.
Garrosh Hellscream says: I sent you into Stonetalon Mountains with an army. Your orders were to secure this land for the Horde. Instead, you laid waste to the land. Murdered innocents. Children even... I spent a very long time in Northrend, Krom'gar. I learned much about the Horde in that time. While there, a wise old war hero told me something that I would carry with me forever... "Honor," Krom'gar, "No matter how dire the battle... never forsake it."
Garrosh Hellscream says: Overlord Krom'gar, you have disgraced the Horde. You have brought shame to us as a people. By my right as Warchief, I hereby relieve you of your duty.
Garrosh picks up Krom'gar by the throat and lifts him over the edge of the lift bridge.
Garrosh Hellscream says: YOU ARE DISMISSED.
Garrosh drops Krom'gar off the edge, sending him to his death.
This is one of the pivotal moments of Cataclysm, because it highlights one of those changes that we didn't see in the end of Wrath -- the moment when Garrosh realized that the fighting he encouraged in the Northrend war was no longer an acceptable option, that it simply did not apply in southern Azeroth because there were civilians potentially at risk. It's one thing to be fighting an army that is prepared to fight; it's another thing entirely to attack a defenseless group of druids who not only are doing nothing to provoke an attack but also have no real way of defending themselves. The druids of the glade were not warriors; they were not members of the Alliance army. They were innocents caught in the midst of battle.

It may also very well be why Garrosh's reaction to Overlord Krom'gar's acts was so strong. The death of a tauren by orcish hands, and once again, that death was a dishonorable one -- it was an echo of the shame he felt when he learned that Cairne's death was not an honorable one and that he had murdered someone who couldn't fight back. This time though, it wasn't a treacherous Grimtotem who poisoned the blade and paved the way for his shame -- it was an orc Overlord who had been trusted with the position of command, an orc that Garrosh himself had placed in that position of command. There was no reason for Krom'gar to act the way he did, other than sheer bloodlust. And it is obvious from Garrosh's reaction that mindless bloodlust will not be tolerated.

Which makes the rest of Cataclysm even more interesting. Garrosh is learning, and Garrosh has stated that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated -- and yet that behavior is being acted out in other areas of the world, notably in Silverpine Forest and Hillsbrad Foothills, where the Forsaken have gone wild and ignore the Warchief's wishes. It may be that Garrosh Hellscream will soon discover what kind of strain Thrall was under as Warchief, that a Warchief's eyes cannot watch everything at once. How he chooses to deal with this knowledge is still up in the air; however, I don't think it's likely that we'll see Garrosh willingly give his position to another -- he's far too determined to lead, and lead the right way.
The eyes of Hellscream are upon us, but they aren't the eyes of an orc driven to bloodlust. They are the eyes of a cautious leader, a watchful leader, one who has a very defined line between what is honorable and what is not. Stonetalon remains as a cautionary tale to any who cross that line ... and they will learn in the instant before their death the folly of dishonor and what it means to cross a Hellscream.
For more information on related subjects, please look at these other Know Your Lore entries:
- Garrosh Hellscream
- High Overlord Saurfang
- Sylvanas Windrunner
- Current Horde Politics: the Orcs
- Cairne Bloodhoof
While you don't need to have played the previous Warcraft games to enjoy World of Warcraft, a little history goes a long way toward making the game a lot more fun. Dig into even more of the lore and history behind the World of Warcraft in WoW Insider's Guide to Warcraft Lore.Filed under: Lore, Know your Lore






Reader Comments (Page 4 of 6)
jealouspirate Jan 16th 2011 3:41PM
@Jasonkidd
"It doesn't take any honor to kill people who are defenseless."
So it is honorable to kill someone who can defend themselves, even if they aren't looking for a fight? I don't know, I really don't. My problem with the whole situation is just that I think people throw the word "honor" around a lot without giving a lot of thought to what it means. I haven't seen many people in these debates define honor, or what constitutes honorable behaviour. I'm not sure that I could define it myself. Intuitively, what the Horde is doing certainly doesn't come across as honorable to me.
Garrosh says, for example in the Twilight Highlands, that he intends to remake the whole of Azeroth under the Horde's banner. It's pretty safe to say that means he intends to either subjugate or eliminate the Alliance (and any other nation/entity). As a Horde player I have no problem supporting that goal and fighting towards it, I'm just not quite comfortable calling it an honorable pursuit.
jasonkidd1234 Jan 16th 2011 4:01PM
Honor doesn't mean being nice.
In war, you can't be nice. If you want something, and people aren't going to give it up, it's not dishonorable to take it by force. That is pretty much the very definition of war.
Honor, imo, is not killing when you don't need too. The area that was blown up had no real significance to the horde. The druids weren't going to put up any resistance, if the horde beat the alliance in that area and pushed them out, the druids would have either retreated (Or more likely) or joined a nuetral party (I.E, the Cenarion Circle would have recruited them into thier ranks. They were just children, all druids.)
Honor in war, imo, is allowing the option for retreat. In that situation, he destroyed a bunch of innocents for no reason. The twilight highlands is a warzone. At this point of the WoW story it was no secret that the alliance and horde were at war. Both were interested in taking the twilight highlands, the Horde wanted it, if that means destroying opposition, then so is the case. It's no different than them attacking the Wildhammer dwarves that are currently there, they want the area.
icepyro Jan 16th 2011 7:22PM
While I have a different definition of honor than Garrosh does, I would like to comment on one thing:
"So it is honorable to kill someone who can defend themselves, even if they aren't looking for a fight?"
If, by your definition of "can defend themselves", you mean that they are armed with weapons and posses the ability to use said weapons effectively, then yes. If you mean something else, then it depends on that definition.
Why are you prepared to defend yourself if you are not looking to do so?
What I mean is I do believe those sayings: Those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Don't draw a gun unless you intend to use it. You are more likely to die defending your home if you own a gun.
So in wow, you are always armed. Even if you are not looking for a fight, contested territory means that you contest to being able to the best of whatever level you are. It is why, despite not being a PvP fan, I roll on a PvP server. Incidentally, I find ganking lowbies even more dishonorable because you can tell how able someone is by their level and stats at the very least. If it isn't an honorable kill, then it isn't an honorable kill. Period. Stop.
Snuzzle Jan 16th 2011 9:16PM
Because it's so honorable to throw someone off a cliff when they're prostrating themselves before you and not fighting back.
Suzaku Jan 17th 2011 12:42AM
Jealouspirate: "So it is honorable to kill someone who can defend themselves, even if they aren't looking for a fight?"
Are you seriously trying to imply that the Alliance didn't declare war against the Horde, and are completely innocent in all of this?
Snuzzle: He had it coming to him. Execution for the murder of countless innocents is not exactly a harsh penalty. Especially for the Horde.
jealouspirate Jan 17th 2011 5:39AM
@Suzaku
It was more just a general question about the nature of honor in battle, not really directed at either the Horde or Alliance.
That being said, I'm not sure who officially declared the war following the post-LK truce, if there even is a definitive answer to that. Certainly could have been the Alliance. Maybe you know?
I do think that in the case of Night Elves vs Orcs, which this article is discussing, that the Orcs are the fairly clear aggressors against a weakened and isolationist group, going back to the time peroid after WC3 and before the launch of Vanilla. I'm not saying the Alliance is completely innocent, just talking about this particularly front.
Al Jan 16th 2011 3:20PM
Hmm, I'm inclined to think Garrosh isn't concerned about the innocents dying. He's just mad about the political headache caused by attacking a Tauren village. He's already got enough problems to sort out with the Tauren.
After all, he ordered Gilneas attacked for the hell of it, and backed down after finding out the Forsaken ignored him by using the Plague and recruiting Val'kyr.
jasonkidd1234 Jan 16th 2011 3:28PM
They want to conquer gilneas to give them a better foothold in the eastern kingdoms.
Like I said before, war isn't about wiping out your enemies entirely, it's about forcing them to surrender. If both sides are simply warring to show who is dominant, they aren't interested in destroying their families and everything.
Al Jan 16th 2011 3:39PM
A crumbling peninsula infested with Worgen down the road from Silverpine is better than Silverpine?
Treating it as an extension of the war doesn't float either, Gilneas hadn't been on either side for years. By that logic, he'll attack Og'rila next since they had contact with the Alliance some time ago. Or Silvermoon, it was an Alliance city more recently than Gilneas.
Artificial Jan 16th 2011 3:45PM
@Al: Silverpine lacks a port, or even a decent harbor in which to build one, so, yes, in fact, that is better, although to be fair, he has no idea it was worgen infested, at the time he thought it was human infested.
Artificial Jan 16th 2011 3:46PM
*had* no idea, that should read.
Al Jan 16th 2011 3:47PM
So where did the Forsaken ships come from?
jasonkidd1234 Jan 16th 2011 3:49PM
Well first off, it's a penninsula, meaning that it gives them a better water route. If the alliance hold it, then the alliance have a much easier time attacking the forsaken. Even if it's only marginally more useful than silverpine for the horde, it's immensely useful for the alliance, giving them a very close access point to silverpine, which is only a stone's throw from trisfal.
And the horde went in there wanting the territory, simply. It's a war, just like any other group would do, if you invade an area and they don't surrender, then you take it by force.
And I don't know how much Garrosh had to do with Sylvanas actually intruding Gilneas, he obviously wanted the land, but Sylvanas is obviously not the type of person to take mercy on people.
In a war, if you want an area of land, and the people aren't willing to give it up, you attempt to remove them. It's not the nicest thing to do, but there is a difference between honor and being nice. You can be an honorable warrior but not be nice. They fact was, they wanted the land, the Gilneans didn't retreat (quite the opposite actually), so the horde attacked and attempted to take it by force. They eventually retreated.
While it's generally a good idea to leave neutral parties out of wars, if you want an area bad enough, you'll take it by force if necessary. That is part of war. If the Dragonmaw decided to not join the horde, they'd probably all be wiped out now, or at least wiped out to the point where the remaining members joined the horde (basically what they did.)
War isn't pretty, but that doesn't mean you can't attack areas without honor. The reason the attack on the druids lacked honor was because it had no real significance to them.
BlindWorg Jan 16th 2011 3:57PM
Just to make it clear, Gilnaes is at the moment contested territory leaning towards Alliance control with the 7th Legion coming to the rescue and pushing forsaken back.
Info taken from Silverpine questing.
Al Jan 16th 2011 4:41PM
So Garrosh's reaction to learning a neutral country had become accessible after an earthquake was "We better kill them and take their stuff! Because they have the same skin as those other guys I hate! Zombies, don't poison them! Oh, you poisoned them? Meh. Take their stuff!"
Yeah, still not seeing the honour of that decision. Especially since the Forsaken show up within an hour of the reef opening, so they were floating out there for an unknown amount of time, just waiting to kill them for being Human.
icepyro Jan 16th 2011 6:48PM
You act as if he led the war personally. He told Sylvanas to prove her worth and reunite Lordaeron for the Horde. Like the Forsaken are going to pass up that opportunity. I'm not even sure if Gilneas was part of that plan in Garrosh's mind, even if he did have his sights on the whole world.
His reaction to their methods was not "Meh". It was "I am leaving this guy to watch you and sending reinforcements so that you don't feel you have to do this anymore."
Since the whole point was, in fact, claim it for the Horde, then it should come as no surprise when after all is said and done, he wants to.... claim it for the Horde.
Apparently your sense of honor excludes invading other countries. I personally agree with this, but Napolean... er, Garrosh... looks at things a little different and didn't have all the facts. He didn't even show up to see any of the events prior to seeing the Worgen are part of the Alliance and have pushed the Forsaken back to the Tirisfal Glades border. There were no innocents by this point. It was all Alliance soldiers. Innocents had already fled.
Suzaku Jan 17th 2011 12:43AM
Gilneas was certainly a viable target for the Forsaken, though they were effectively neutral at that point -- and had been for quite some time. Though it could be argued that the Forsaken were due some revenge, as their requests for aid during the Third War (back when they were still human) were ignored by Genn and they were left to fend off the Scourge by themselves, despite Liam's insistance that they should lend Lordaeron support.
And, though it's not mentioned in-game, there's also the incredibly interesting fact that there was actually a renegade faction of worgen working WITH the Forsaken to help take the lands of Gilneas (the worgen were outsiders being hunted by Greymane and the other nobles), lead by Ralaar Fangfire, one of the first night elf worgen (if not THE first).
Travy Jan 16th 2011 3:27PM
After doing Loremaster on my warlock I have to say that Stonetalon's storyline was probably the best storyline out of any of the other zones because of the whole Garrosh ending. Made me proud to be a warrior of the horde.
joe Jan 16th 2011 3:27PM
I must say, I may play alliance mainly, but even I felt a pang of regret seeing garrosh take the title of warchief in beta. I felt the same hint of distrust the faction leaders noted in private during most notably the starting quests in each race's zone. So to see that Garrosh is capable of such decisive and honorable actions, really makes me feel strongly about the horde all the more.
BlindWorg Jan 16th 2011 3:33PM
Ontopic:
Technically i play both sides or have been playing but now im more Alliance biased. So Garrosh's invasion, honorable as it may be, is still an invasion. Ashenvale is being cut down and Lordaeron is being overrun by zealous zombies ( though the latter is arguably out of his influence ).
Not sure what im trying to tell here tbh, Allies wont go down easy and if big G ends up dead, there may be a flutter of pleasement inside me then. Forgoing trade options and reliyng on brute force where both are viable ways and taking the latter doesnt suit me that well.
Need to keep in mind though, as told in ''The Shattering'' book, the campaign in NR was very expensive on both sides. Horde needs resources and making trade agreements with the closest possible target, the Night Elves, was strenuous to say the least. They didnt give it, Horde will take it what it needs then.
Im blabbering now, the current conflict between the H and A is more complicated than Garrosh being a douche of a conqueror and both sides have a part in the start of this war.