Officers' Quarters: Guild wars

Guild splits can be traumatizing for all involved, often ending in bruised egos, stabbed backs, and rancor all around. (Yes, rancor isn't just that monster in the pit under Jabba's throne room.) In the best outcomes, the two factions can ignore each other and go about their own business. Unfortunately, it doesn't always turn out that way. Sometimes, as you'll see in this week's email, one faction isn't content to live and let live. Sometimes, it's war ...
I'm an officer in a smallish casual raiding guild. We just recently got enough of our players geared enough to start raiding and are starting the process of continuously wiping on early bosses to learn the encounters. The officers aren't freaking out about our difficulty in completing the encounters or the fact that some of our members still aren't raid-ready yet, because we understand that the game has barely been out a month and some people didn't get it until Christmas or later.
Our problem has been that a couple of the more hardcore members have been causing quite a fuss and complaining that the guild is going nowhere and in some cases, openly attacking officers and general members in guild chat. This has gone far beyond the occasional good-natured ribbing and has become a major source of tension in the guild.
I don't blame you for being Stressed. I dealt with quite a bit of drama in my time as a guild leader, including inter-guild drama, but never a guild leader who told me he'd do everything he could to dismantle my community.The guild master, one of the other core officers, and I made the decision to deal with the problem at its source and boot the problem players from the guild. This was followed by some of our more active players leaving the guild. We explained to everyone in the guild why the /gkick occurred in the first place, but people still left, citing the loss of two good players as their reason why.
The two problem players have since joined another smallish guild along with a couple of the players who left after the /gkick and have begun a crusade to destroy the guild from which they were booted. Our members have been getting multiple messages trying to lure them away, with the only reasoning being, "That guild is a fail guild." The guild master of the other guild has messaged our officers and our guild master saying that he is going to do everything he can to poach our members. My question is twofold. First, did we make the right decision in the first place to kick two active members, both good players, to relieve tension in the guild? Second, what can we do to hold things together and avoid losing people to a poaching guild master?
Stressed
As to your first question, it's difficult for me or anyone looking at it from an outside perspective to judge. Mainly, it depends on what your existing behavior policies were (if you had any) and whether or not you could prove that the players in question were violating those policies. Some behavior goes so far beyond what any policy would cover that you have no choice but to remove players from your roster.
Perhaps the situation might have turned out better if a more diplomatic solution had been reached, but it sounds like these players weren't a good fit for your guild in any case. Now they are holding a grudge, so they must feel as if they didn't deserve to be kicked, whether others would agree or not. I feel like a broken record sometimes when I tell officers to put their policies and expectations in writing, but this situation is yet another great example of why you should.
Regardless, regrets and second thoughts won't get you anywhere at this point. You have to move forward. Your former players have decided to respond aggressively, and you need to match that aggression.
I'm not recommending that you engage in the same underhanded tactics, and I would never condone blatant poaching for any reason. In fact, I would ignore their messages completely. Responding to them will only encourage further harassment. However, you have a right to defend your guild from them.
The best defense
The best defense, as they say, is a good offense. As a first step, I'd acknowledge the situation in an honest and straightforward message to your guild members. Telling them why you kicked the offending players is a start, but you need to go farther. Explain exactly what this new guild is out to do. Share the threats that their leaders are making toward you. Bring it all out in the open and expose their behavior.
As a second step, you need to draw a figurative line in the sand between their guild and yours. Explain in no uncertain terms all the things that your guild stands for and how that makes you different from this rival organization. Emphasize the way their leaders treat people versus how you believe people in the game should be treated. Heck, you can even tell people that you'd rather see the guild wither and die rather than stoop to their level.
Then, make it clear that anyone on your roster who wants to quit and join the other guild is welcome to do so. If anyone in your guild actually wants to join an organization whose leaders are behaving this way, you're better off without them. That guild is only headed for more drama. In most cases, guilds that start this way don't last.
Finally, you need to be aggressive about rebuilding your roster and getting back into raids. That includes outlining a plan of your raiding goals for the expansion and how you plan to meet those goals. The faith of your membership has been tested by these events, so you must restore that faith. Beyond that, only time and hard work can repair the damage that was done.
A final
To the other guild who is causing this drama: Shame on you. Whether the officers of the other guild kicked you out justly or unjustly, nothing justifies this immature and spiteful behavior. You may think you're better players than the leaders of your former guild, but all you're proving at this point is that you're worse human beings. Grow up, let it go, and let everyone get back to the point of this game, which is to have fun.
/salute






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Garnlok Jan 24th 2011 2:07PM
First to be downvoted!
.... oh wait, that isn't a good thing ):
Aubrey Jan 24th 2011 2:08PM
I'm in a small casual guild, and back in tbc I remember that a few people were kicked/gquit because of something, and a while later one of the people that had left tried to tell me I should leave and go raiding with his guild. I thought that was odd, and I happened to mention it in gchat, and it caused a huge fuss, apparently he had talk to some other guildies too and tried to lure them into leaving aswell.
I think the behaviour is pretty lousy, and especially what Stressed has to endure because of it. I hope it gets better soon.
Finnicks Jan 24th 2011 2:56PM
I really wish people like this would just disappear.
Two years ago, my guild had a raiding alliance with another. Everything seemed fine, but then suddenly out of nowhere the other guild severed the alliance, explaining their reasons, chief among them that I myself "take it too seriously" and am "too mean and bossy during raids". Note that this was chiefly because I'm not the type of person who is going to sugarcoat it when you stand in fire, or forgot to taunt. You forgot to taunt, you stood in fire, correct the issue. Don't get butthurt and cry about big bad mean Finnicks who points out your mistakes. What am I supposed to do? Let you keep screwing up and wiping the raid? Yeah right.
Anyway, it wasn't enough for them to just sever ties with us. Oh no. One of our officers left us to join the other guild, and then proceeded to start poaching our members. Was that enough? Nope. He and one of the other guild's officers launched an all-out smear campaign (smearing us in chat channels whenever we tried to recruit or pug for raids, for example), including making a mock guild (same name as ours, they just changed "Undercity" to "underpants") and every time our GL tried to recruit, they would post a mocking recruit post for the "underpants" guild.
Appeals to the other guild's Guild Master were pointless, the response we got was "Their just having a bit of fun."
In the end, it took no less than 3 GM tickets for harassment to make them stop.
And even now, TWO YEARS LATER, this ex-officer occassionally starts nonsense up again. It boggles my mind how someone can hold a grudge like this forever. The last one was a month ago, when he posted a series of nonsense and mocking comments on our website (all referring to us with the "underpants" name) which forced me to not only get a WordPress addon to ban IPs, but also to enable comment moderation for all guests, something I hadn't had to do yet.
Tim Jan 24th 2011 11:07PM
Finnicks, there's a fine line between identifying a mistake someone made, and smearing their face in it to the point where they don't want to play anymore. Every time I've heard someone say they don't "sugarcoat" things, it's been used as an excuse to be an ass.
Are you being supportive and helping those people learn? Are you respectfully talking to them in /t's instead of guild chat or vent? Do you offer suggestions to help them, other than "Get out of the fire!"?
You said you can't let them keep screwing up and wiping the raid. That's fine. All that can be handled politely and respectfully. Yes, they reacted badly, and continue to negatively impact you. However, nothing happens without a cause. You just might want to look back over how the alliance was set up in the first place, whether you made your raiding style clear, and whether you personally did anything to insult them. Things like what you described don't happen in a vacuum.
orangedude Jan 25th 2011 3:32AM
That hardly sounds like an ordinary response to a gquit. Obviously, those people felt some deep seated hatred for you to hold a grudge that long. In Stressed's case, the vendetta was mainly due to the /gkicks, but here they left on their own will and still slander you. Might want to re-evaluate your RL'ing style a bit.
Finnicks Jan 26th 2011 4:30AM
As I said, that was only the "chief" reason. There were other issues they had, some more "out there" than others.
And while I appreciate that some elitist jerks out there use terms like "sugarcoat" to justify being an ass, I'm not that kind of guy. My raids are semi-casual. We aren't on the bleeding edge of content, not even close, and we never will be.
I don't jump down someone's throat and insult them because their DPS was 11999 when I expect 12000. I -never- raise my voice, I -never- yell, and I certainly -never- use any kind of insult or foul language in these situations.
However, if someone makes a mistake that directly results in a raid wipe, I will say so, matter-of-factly. Example: We were working on Putricide. The off tank was driving the abomination for the first time. He fell behind on slimes and we were overwhelmed by the growing puddles and wiped. I said (monotone): "Ok. So that time we wiped because ***** fell behind on slime puddles." I was immediately snapped at in raid that it was his first time here. This person repeatedly showed a tendancy to get defensive when his mistakes were pointed out, no matter -how- nice I was about it. As a result, he never improved on those mistakes, and eventually stopped raiding with my group because he "couldn't handle my attitude". After we got a new off-tank, we downed Putricide in short order.
These are the kinds of people I'm talking about. The ones who get offended and butthurt about the smallest things. In my opinion, those kinds of people are immature and need to get a thicker skin. Life isn't sunshine and daisies. Whining and making excuses about your mistakes isn't going to make the raid boss fall over dead.
Rob Jan 24th 2011 2:09PM
I think these things are common in "smallish casual raiding" guilds. You have two different mix of people - those that are there to raid, even though it's casual, they're still pretty hardcore players.
Then you're mixed with truly casual players. They log on to raid, but aren't really running heroics to get geared themselves before raiding, getting valor points, getting all the rep gear they could. They don't want to, or simply can't afford, potions and flasks. They're not doing dailies or anything else for gold - they just log on to raid mostly, or maybe play with alts.
I don't think there's a simple solution - you have oil and water in the same guild. You can't make everyone happy. Our guild is experiencing it a little as well, and we may have to make some adjustments for progression fights, which I think is a good compromise - on farm bosses, anyone can go. On progression, the more "serious" players, the heavy-hitters, get first spot.
Fade2gray Jan 24th 2011 3:38PM
Our guild definately falls into this category (though I wouldn't say our guild is small). The way they've solved this problem is by having two different raid groups. One is populated by our hardcore raiders and officers learning the fights and the other by causual raiders (like myself) who can't or won't take the time to gear up to top form. It works out pretty well. We get hardcore raiders in our group from time to time who haven't recieved a slot in the hardcore group and they're usually patient enough to help out with advice and what-not. I know a lot of guilds aren't large enough to suport this approach, but it seems to work realy well if you can swing it.
talkingmike Jan 24th 2011 4:59PM
That's the thing though. At this stage of the expansion, you are virtually guaranteeing failure in a raid with this kind of player strategy:
"They log on to raid, but aren't really running heroics to get geared themselves before raiding, getting valor points, getting all the rep gear they could. They don't want to, or simply can't afford, potions and flasks. They're not doing dailies or anything else for gold - they just log on to raid mostly, or maybe play with alts."
Call it whatever you want (casual, friendly, hardcore, raiding with friends, friends with raiding-benefits), but you have to at least have a prepared character if you want to progress at the current tier of content.
Dok Jan 25th 2011 12:41PM
The replies to this have both hit the nail on the head. We did the 2 runs thing for ICC usually with the core raiders on alts to fill in if we couldn't get a full 10 for the lesser geared people.
It is waaay to soon in the expansion cycle for a smaller guild to do this since gearing is a rep/heroic grind and alts have been benched until mains are geared. With 4.0.6 JP increase things may change.
Stannislaus Jan 24th 2011 2:20PM
I would say Stressed and his guildies should take screen captures of all the stuff the other guild writes to them, so that in the case that something bad happens, they will have archived evidence of just how this other guild was treating them.
Zanthexter Jan 24th 2011 8:04PM
One of the things I like about the addon WoWInstantMessenger is that it saves chat logs.
I've never had to refer back to them, but when you are dealing with people on a regular basis that you know usually know little to nothing about... it just seems like a good idea to document what you can.
Vitasia Jan 24th 2011 2:23PM
My best recommendation against that kind of aggressive poaching from former players is to simply succeed.
Frankly, no guild will ever last built on poaching other members out of spite and calling other members "scrubs." While they might have some initial successes, they will flame out very, very quickly. As long as you persevere, you will eventually pass them.
Nothing irritates haters more than proving them wrong, after all.
Boocat Jan 24th 2011 4:54PM
Proving haters wrong feels sooooo good.
Sorro Jan 24th 2011 2:24PM
Wait, so this second guild, which is calling the first guild a bunch of failures, is also trying to poach the first guild's members? If they think it's a fail guild, why are they trying to poach? The second guild sounds like a bunch of idiots to me.
Kaiser Jan 24th 2011 3:01PM
Exactly! That was all I could think of while reading the article.
What is the plural of a "Douche Canoe"? Because that is the only (clean) word I can use to describe that second guild right now...
Rob Jan 24th 2011 3:08PM
Not saying I agree or condone, but the general idea when that happens is that it's the guild leadership that is bad. There are good members there, but either various rules/policies are "fail", or there's still too many "baddies" in the original guild, and the leadership isn't dealing with them, nor recruiting more "supar pro" people.
firstlordmoth Jan 24th 2011 3:37PM
I'm gonna bet that the fail commentary isn't necessarily directed at the various members, bur rather at the guild leadership. From my experience playing WoW, the worst kind of guild to try to be is a 'casual raiding' guild. What 'casual raiding' really means is "We're bored with 5 man heroics and want to do higher end content, but we lack the discipline and guts to enforce performance standards on our raiders". I've been in one of those guilds and it sucks. Invariably those guilds will polarize into the raiders who actually put the effort into bettering their character and their raiding performance, and those who are just going along for the ride. When a guild reaches this point in it's evolution, the guild leadership will determine if it survives or fragments in the manner we see in the original post. Those who just want to be casual will not try to push its members to improve their game. In so doing, they will not ruffle the feathers among the casuals, but they will clearly show the more serious raiders in the guild that they will NEVER see any significant raiding progression.
On the other hand, if the guild leadership chooses to play a more serious raiding game, they are going to set performance standards and ENFORCE them. This WILL ruffle feathers among those for whom WoW is "just a game" and don't want their game to "be a job". Those who are offended by the standards will either leave on their own or may be shown the door but the GM and officers.
I'm not siding with either side of this debate, but I do recognize that there really is very little room for compromise between the two camps. I'm not saying that both can't exist in the same guild, but only if you don't try to mash the two together and try to accomplish end game raiding progression. That is a recipe for failure.
Sorro Jan 24th 2011 4:10PM
@Kaiser - Douche Ferry?
Eisengel Jan 24th 2011 9:23PM
@Kaiser
Maybe - douche armada?
Although... lots of douche canoes sounds ripe for a song parody:
99 douche canoes
Floating in the guildy water
Panic bells, red alert
There's some 'toons here from somewhere else,
The jerk machine springs to life,
Opens up one eager eye,
Focusing it on the rill,
Where 99 douche canoes float by...