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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsOfficers' Quarters: Guild wars
by Scott Andrews 
Jan 24th 2011 at 2:00PM
Guild splits can be traumatizing for all involved, often ending in bruised egos, stabbed backs, and rancor all around. (Yes, rancor isn't just that monster in the pit under Jabba's throne room.) In the best outcomes, the two factions can ignore each other and go about their own business. Unfortunately, it doesn't always turn out that way. Sometimes, as you'll see in this week's email, one faction isn't content to live and let live. Sometimes, it's war ...
I'm an officer in a smallish casual raiding guild. We just recently got enough of our players geared enough to start raiding and are starting the process of continuously wiping on early bosses to learn the encounters. The officers aren't freaking out about our difficulty in completing the encounters or the fact that some of our members still aren't raid-ready yet, because we understand that the game has barely been out a month and some people didn't get it until Christmas or later.
Our problem has been that a couple of the more hardcore members have been causing quite a fuss and complaining that the guild is going nowhere and in some cases, openly attacking officers and general members in guild chat. This has gone far beyond the occasional good-natured ribbing and has become a major source of tension in the guild.
I don't blame you for being Stressed. I dealt with quite a bit of drama in my time as a guild leader, including inter-guild drama, but never a guild leader who told me he'd do everything he could to dismantle my community.The guild master, one of the other core officers, and I made the decision to deal with the problem at its source and boot the problem players from the guild. This was followed by some of our more active players leaving the guild. We explained to everyone in the guild why the /gkick occurred in the first place, but people still left, citing the loss of two good players as their reason why.
The two problem players have since joined another smallish guild along with a couple of the players who left after the /gkick and have begun a crusade to destroy the guild from which they were booted. Our members have been getting multiple messages trying to lure them away, with the only reasoning being, "That guild is a fail guild." The guild master of the other guild has messaged our officers and our guild master saying that he is going to do everything he can to poach our members. My question is twofold. First, did we make the right decision in the first place to kick two active members, both good players, to relieve tension in the guild? Second, what can we do to hold things together and avoid losing people to a poaching guild master?
Stressed
As to your first question, it's difficult for me or anyone looking at it from an outside perspective to judge. Mainly, it depends on what your existing behavior policies were (if you had any) and whether or not you could prove that the players in question were violating those policies. Some behavior goes so far beyond what any policy would cover that you have no choice but to remove players from your roster.
Perhaps the situation might have turned out better if a more diplomatic solution had been reached, but it sounds like these players weren't a good fit for your guild in any case. Now they are holding a grudge, so they must feel as if they didn't deserve to be kicked, whether others would agree or not. I feel like a broken record sometimes when I tell officers to put their policies and expectations in writing, but this situation is yet another great example of why you should.
Regardless, regrets and second thoughts won't get you anywhere at this point. You have to move forward. Your former players have decided to respond aggressively, and you need to match that aggression.
I'm not recommending that you engage in the same underhanded tactics, and I would never condone blatant poaching for any reason. In fact, I would ignore their messages completely. Responding to them will only encourage further harassment. However, you have a right to defend your guild from them.
The best defense
The best defense, as they say, is a good offense. As a first step, I'd acknowledge the situation in an honest and straightforward message to your guild members. Telling them why you kicked the offending players is a start, but you need to go farther. Explain exactly what this new guild is out to do. Share the threats that their leaders are making toward you. Bring it all out in the open and expose their behavior.
As a second step, you need to draw a figurative line in the sand between their guild and yours. Explain in no uncertain terms all the things that your guild stands for and how that makes you different from this rival organization. Emphasize the way their leaders treat people versus how you believe people in the game should be treated. Heck, you can even tell people that you'd rather see the guild wither and die rather than stoop to their level.
Then, make it clear that anyone on your roster who wants to quit and join the other guild is welcome to do so. If anyone in your guild actually wants to join an organization whose leaders are behaving this way, you're better off without them. That guild is only headed for more drama. In most cases, guilds that start this way don't last.
Finally, you need to be aggressive about rebuilding your roster and getting back into raids. That includes outlining a plan of your raiding goals for the expansion and how you plan to meet those goals. The faith of your membership has been tested by these events, so you must restore that faith. Beyond that, only time and hard work can repair the damage that was done.
A final
To the other guild who is causing this drama: Shame on you. Whether the officers of the other guild kicked you out justly or unjustly, nothing justifies this immature and spiteful behavior. You may think you're better players than the leaders of your former guild, but all you're proving at this point is that you're worse human beings. Grow up, let it go, and let everyone get back to the point of this game, which is to have fun.
/salute
Join us to learn how to survive the leveling process, deal with guild perk freeloaders, and discuss the guild talent controversy or the guild reputation system. Send Scott your guild-related questions and suggestions at scott@wowinsider.com; you may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters! 
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 4)
Zachary Woodcock Jan 26th 2011 12:28AM
@Eisengel
Hahahahahahaha.
You win the entire interwebz.
The best part? I started singing.
Kay Jan 24th 2011 2:26PM
Sounds like you made exactly the right decision. The 2 kicked players may have had the ingame skills, but it sounds like they lack the social skills needed.
They may have been frustrated at a lack of progress, but they expressed it in the wrong ways. They could have a) gone to the extra effort of helping those struggling b)had a quiet word with the officers and been patient, or c) left for a more hardcore guild(which is fine).
They did none of these, they just whined and made folks feel bad.
I've seen a few of these players in my time, they'll piss and moan for a bit, then folks will stop listening to them, and their wannabe-hardcore guild will collapse.
I really wouldn't worry about the poaching. Just be very open about what's been said. From the sounds of things these are immature players, so hopefully most of your current guildies will breathe a sigh of relief at their removal, tune out their white-noise leg-humping, and get on with their life. Those that you do lose probably weren't worth having long-term anyway.
vinniedcleaner Jan 24th 2011 10:59PM
@Kay
Couldn't say it better myself. I've noticed that there are more and more elitist raiders (and PvPers, for that matter) around with absolutely NO social skills.
I tried raiding during Kara, but got tired of being told I wasn't 'good' enough by the wannabe raiding guild (Chicken on Rice/Dark Iron). In reality, they just used me to get keyed and then favored their buddies over me.
roshomon Jan 24th 2011 2:36PM
There's a silly belief held by childish people that guilds that don't progress in raids as fast as other guilds are 'fail guilds'. Jan 23rd's Breakfast Topic was "What makes a guild great?" The resounding responses were "the people in the guild, not progression" There's a mutual relationship between a guild and its members. Both have to be in sync to flourish. If these members were not happy with the rate of progression in the guild then its time to part ways. In regards to the other guild openly admitting/threatening to poach. Show some class. Really.
I myself am in a 'casual' raiding guild. To my knowledge we are one of the oldest guilds on the server (if not the oldest). We currently have yet to start raiding Cat content. When I see old members boasting about their new guild and calling us a 'fail' guild in trade I smile to myself because my guild has been around since vanilla and in a few months their guild probably won't even be around.
Moeru Jan 24th 2011 5:29PM
Guilds built around raiding don't last. People make a guild, not raids. I told my friend, who joined a raiding guild halfway through Lich King, that his guild wouldn't last. He would do the raids he wants to and get the gear, but people wouldn't interact like in my guild, which he was a part of. They'll tease and joke with each other, but during non-raid times they'll simply do their own things or pug higher-difficulty raids.
In the end I was right. Half his guild had people who did ICC25 on heroic, but never together. And within a few months before Cata, it had collapsed. Not to say these people are bad, but just guilds built around raiding don't last. Need to have a connection and understanding before you can progress to raiding, in my opinion anyways.
Pyromelter Jan 24th 2011 7:16PM
Hey Moe, the top 10, 50, 100, and 200 guilds in the world would disagree with you. And there are plenty of people who are elite players that put up with less-than-stellar social situations to be in those top guild.
What matters most in the end, IMO, is the guild leadership. Do you have that captain at the helm steering the ship away from icebergs and sand bars? Does the captain have great lieutenants that can run all parts of the boat?
Don't kid yourself. The vast majority of guilds in wow are built primarily around gameplay, and that usually means end-game raiding. You can have friendships flourish, and you need to have rules (as scott says many times) that are firm and written down, because you want to create a certain atmosphere for your guild. But there are very few raid guilds that are comprised of solely or mainly IRL friends.
orangedude Jan 25th 2011 3:41AM
Actually, my guild is raid focused ~top 5 server and has been around since Vanilla. So just because in your anecdote a raiding guild collapsed, doesn't mean it's a rule. In fact, the average "casual" guild you see on trade chat are a dime a dozen and probably don't even last half as long as most raiding guilds.
mgsaintz Jan 24th 2011 2:37PM
Happens a lot in the guild I'm in, we're rather casual with things but we've been wanting to do 25man content and tried building up to it. Each time that happened someone develops an ego and the guild ends up splitting with the egos and hardcore players leaving and making their own guild. Funny thing is that despite the splits we're still around and the guilds that splintered from us end up self destructing.
After a point we decided to stop trying for 25man content and stick with 10man since Cataclysm have the same loot table between them compared to Wrath's.
Revynn Jan 24th 2011 2:46PM
I just don't understand how someone, much less a -group- of people, could be this petty and butthurt over a g-kick from a guild they weren't happy with in the first place.
Scooter Jan 24th 2011 3:03PM
It's because people (especially Americans) have this overinflated sense of entitlement towards certain things. Every subculture has their own list and is one of the prime reasons why they don't get along.
The "young" MMO Gamer subculture feels they are entitled to say/do whatever they want without consequence from other players. It's the "you cant get me behind my computer" effect. Suddenly being evicted from a raiding group they wanted control over and being forced to do something else is mildly traumatizing for these people and inevitably they act like children.
That explain it? Jeez I think i just made my old sociology professor happy with this post.
Pinochet Jan 24th 2011 3:16PM
@scooter
On behalf of Americans everywhere, thank you for taking that little parenthetical aside from an otherwise reasonable post to stereotype an entire country as selfish and narcissistic.
thegatherer Jan 24th 2011 3:59PM
I must say, Scooter hit the nail right on the head with his statement about entitlement.
It is just reinforced in schools where kids are passed along through each grade because either the teachers don't want to deal with irate parents, or because the parents pressure the administrators/teachers into passing their kids.
I better stop before I go on a rant about the school system that I went through :|
Zanathos Jan 24th 2011 6:35PM
Alas for Scooter, downvoted for two words in his post.
Carson Jan 24th 2011 9:41PM
The truth hurts, it seems.
Angus Jan 25th 2011 6:36AM
Wow, Scooter seems to have caused the effect he was pointing out with those 2 words.
Everyone that downvoted him, think about that. You didn't want to hear it. You suppressed negative feedback and acted exactly how he stated.
You will also downvote me as you have others that pointed it out. Try to really think about that.
Scooter Jan 24th 2011 2:56PM
While I've been spared the guild vs guild drama I've dealt with a guy like that recently. He was booted from the guild prior and as of a few days ago booted from our raid group. It's a shame because his DPS skills were truly on the "world-first" hardcore raider level. The problem was his attitude. In spite of our success, he spent the entire raid berating people. somehow he didn't know the difference between telling someone they ****ing suck and a "hey dude, I got a few tips to help your *blank*".
Guilds require stricter management if you plan on raiding these days. Booting the griefers isn't a bad idea, but you should explain it to your guild and work hard on replacing them so you can continue raiding.
A message to guys like the one mentioned above...
If your going to spend all of your time telling someone how to play their class then be open to suggestions on how to properly do it. Polite convincing works a lot better than threats and name calling.
Anony Moss Jan 24th 2011 3:04PM
I'd just like to add that we're only seeing one side of this. I was recently in a guild where the officers and guild leader were doing a terrible job running the guild. The guild bank, which everyone contributed too, was regularly used by officers to fund their personal repairs (during off hours) and their personal professions and alts, while others were not even allowed repairs during raids. The officers frequently had 'mains' in other more hardcore raiding guilds, and lead the guild in question with their alts. They were basically running a 'casual' raiding guild with their alts to help gear themselves up.
My girlfriend and I left the guild with our mains with the desire to raid in a more hardcore environment, but due to the countless friendships we'd build up offered to keep our alts in our old guild and raid in a similar fashion as the officers. The guild leader promptly, without saying a word to us, guild removed all of our alts.
We still talked to those we considered friends in the guild, explained exactly why we left and why our alts were removed. Two other members left the guild and applied with us to a new guild. They weren't "poached", but they were given the facts of the situation.
I bring all this up because the above situation sounds eerily familiar but could be written with a bias. There are two sides to most situations, and sometimes those who were "openly attacking officers" may be those just pointing out issues with leadership that validly need to be addressed. If the officers are a major part of the problem the guild is having, it could be a "fail guild" due to the leadership, while still possessing members of value.
TLNDR version: there could be two sides to this conflict, and I hesitate to believe the above poster without hearing from the other side.
Mortenebra Jan 24th 2011 4:42PM
You bring up a really good point. And, also, what one person sees as being belligerent behavior may not be questionable to another, though it's hard for us to imagine that there could possibly be "another side" to belligerence. That's the importance of writing down policies, of what's acceptable (joking/exaggerated heckling over standing in metaphorical fire) and what's not acceptable ("You just got that achieve/piece of loot/thing of pixels? I got that three weeks ago. Man you're slow, effing nub..."); or at least explaining to recruits what's up so that everyone is on the same page.
When someone attacks an officer, though, it's fairly obvious. Again, we don't know the whole story but it often starts with the approach. To call someone out in guild chat is already a bad idea, regardless if you're just a newbie recruit or the GM. To me, if you're a well-meaning member of a guild, you whisper the officer and tell them your concerns, or write em a letter. Just don't make a public spectacle out of it unless you're expecting/wanting the backlash-- not only from the person in question, but everyone else who happens to be paying attention to /g. Openly throwing curse words, for example, and degrading the officers and/or members in a public channel is in the territory of arseholianism.
Bringing up the faults of the leadership privately to those you consider friends isn't poaching, by far. When the guild I was in during BC imploded for various reasons-- chief among them that the leadership was exhibiting signs of corruption and focusing on serving themselves, much like your experience-- I told them precisely why I was leaving, cited numerous occasions of me voicing my concerns to the officers I had problems with (if only to show "Hey, at least I tried!") and why that night was the absolute last straw. They came after me, called me and those of us who left nasty names, and tried to convince the guild that we were bad people. It was only then did I make a public account on the guild forums of the events that had gone on without their knowing and exactly what their leaders were doing. Even now, as I did then, I admit it was really childish and rash things occur when emotions are flared. While my intention wasn't to even destroy the guild itself: I merely wanted them to know exactly who they were dealing with because I felt like they had the right to know. It sounds dramatic (and when isn't drama dramatic?) but it's like one of those movies where the main character discovers that his loved one is actually a convicted serial killer or something.
Long story short: We don't know the whole story, true. But there is a right way and a wrong way to approach guild tension, from both sides. If you have an issue, you talk to the leadership. It's within the rights of the officership to deal with matters as they see fit *with* explanation to those they (and probably others-- it's hard for me to imagine people being removed without complaint from others) feel are being offensive.
Sorry for the block of text!
Pam Jan 24th 2011 3:13PM
Guild Bashing is so 2009.
Gimmlette Jan 24th 2011 3:17PM
I would be open and honest with the remaining members. Define the goals and then tell people that if they don't like the pace of these goals and would prefer something faster, they are welcome to leave. Also remind them that the "/ignore" button is their friend. Remind them they don't have to tolerate constant whispers if they are not interested in leaving.
I've had it happen to me. I've seen 2 guilds form from people who were not a good fit with my guild. They whispered others relentlessly in an effort to poach members and openly stood in Stormwind advertising they were making a guild that was the opposite of mine.
My officers and I explained why these people left or were kicked. We reiterated our "mission" and reminded people that we are not a guild for every person. People were free to leave if we weren't moving as fast as they would like and they were encouraged to ask questions, privately, about the drama that had happened.
One thing not mentioned is "harassment". I told my guild members to put people on ignore. Most of us try to be nice but some people just don't "get it". Then I sent a letter to the guild leaders and said I didn't care if they wanted to make a guild, just leave comparisons to my guild out of their statements and if they contacted me or members of my guild again, I would report them for harassment. Repeated unwanted contact is harassment and Blizzard takes a dim view of that. Yes, you hate for confrontation to escalate to that level but I never felt better about the situation than after I had a long talk with a GM. I was scared, worried and more than a little upset. She just listened, gave me some suggestions and then said "We will investigate". One guild folded after 2 weeks. The other folded after 6 months. I never gloated, and I'm not gloating now. I think there's a place for everyone to have a guild to play the game the way they want. I just don't think you should, on purpose, tear down another guild in order to do that.
Stressed's mindset might be one of "circle the wagons" but that's not the tack to take. This is the time to connect with all those guild members still in the guild. I'd talk to every single one of them, one-on-one, to find out if they have questions. Keep on with what you're doing. Don't interact with the other guild beyond telling them to leave you alone. I agree with many of the other posters who say a guild that openly goes after another guild's members has drama written all over it.