Officers' Quarters: Guild wars

Guild splits can be traumatizing for all involved, often ending in bruised egos, stabbed backs, and rancor all around. (Yes, rancor isn't just that monster in the pit under Jabba's throne room.) In the best outcomes, the two factions can ignore each other and go about their own business. Unfortunately, it doesn't always turn out that way. Sometimes, as you'll see in this week's email, one faction isn't content to live and let live. Sometimes, it's war ...
I'm an officer in a smallish casual raiding guild. We just recently got enough of our players geared enough to start raiding and are starting the process of continuously wiping on early bosses to learn the encounters. The officers aren't freaking out about our difficulty in completing the encounters or the fact that some of our members still aren't raid-ready yet, because we understand that the game has barely been out a month and some people didn't get it until Christmas or later.
Our problem has been that a couple of the more hardcore members have been causing quite a fuss and complaining that the guild is going nowhere and in some cases, openly attacking officers and general members in guild chat. This has gone far beyond the occasional good-natured ribbing and has become a major source of tension in the guild.
I don't blame you for being Stressed. I dealt with quite a bit of drama in my time as a guild leader, including inter-guild drama, but never a guild leader who told me he'd do everything he could to dismantle my community.The guild master, one of the other core officers, and I made the decision to deal with the problem at its source and boot the problem players from the guild. This was followed by some of our more active players leaving the guild. We explained to everyone in the guild why the /gkick occurred in the first place, but people still left, citing the loss of two good players as their reason why.
The two problem players have since joined another smallish guild along with a couple of the players who left after the /gkick and have begun a crusade to destroy the guild from which they were booted. Our members have been getting multiple messages trying to lure them away, with the only reasoning being, "That guild is a fail guild." The guild master of the other guild has messaged our officers and our guild master saying that he is going to do everything he can to poach our members. My question is twofold. First, did we make the right decision in the first place to kick two active members, both good players, to relieve tension in the guild? Second, what can we do to hold things together and avoid losing people to a poaching guild master?
Stressed
As to your first question, it's difficult for me or anyone looking at it from an outside perspective to judge. Mainly, it depends on what your existing behavior policies were (if you had any) and whether or not you could prove that the players in question were violating those policies. Some behavior goes so far beyond what any policy would cover that you have no choice but to remove players from your roster.
Perhaps the situation might have turned out better if a more diplomatic solution had been reached, but it sounds like these players weren't a good fit for your guild in any case. Now they are holding a grudge, so they must feel as if they didn't deserve to be kicked, whether others would agree or not. I feel like a broken record sometimes when I tell officers to put their policies and expectations in writing, but this situation is yet another great example of why you should.
Regardless, regrets and second thoughts won't get you anywhere at this point. You have to move forward. Your former players have decided to respond aggressively, and you need to match that aggression.
I'm not recommending that you engage in the same underhanded tactics, and I would never condone blatant poaching for any reason. In fact, I would ignore their messages completely. Responding to them will only encourage further harassment. However, you have a right to defend your guild from them.
The best defense
The best defense, as they say, is a good offense. As a first step, I'd acknowledge the situation in an honest and straightforward message to your guild members. Telling them why you kicked the offending players is a start, but you need to go farther. Explain exactly what this new guild is out to do. Share the threats that their leaders are making toward you. Bring it all out in the open and expose their behavior.
As a second step, you need to draw a figurative line in the sand between their guild and yours. Explain in no uncertain terms all the things that your guild stands for and how that makes you different from this rival organization. Emphasize the way their leaders treat people versus how you believe people in the game should be treated. Heck, you can even tell people that you'd rather see the guild wither and die rather than stoop to their level.
Then, make it clear that anyone on your roster who wants to quit and join the other guild is welcome to do so. If anyone in your guild actually wants to join an organization whose leaders are behaving this way, you're better off without them. That guild is only headed for more drama. In most cases, guilds that start this way don't last.
Finally, you need to be aggressive about rebuilding your roster and getting back into raids. That includes outlining a plan of your raiding goals for the expansion and how you plan to meet those goals. The faith of your membership has been tested by these events, so you must restore that faith. Beyond that, only time and hard work can repair the damage that was done.
A final
To the other guild who is causing this drama: Shame on you. Whether the officers of the other guild kicked you out justly or unjustly, nothing justifies this immature and spiteful behavior. You may think you're better players than the leaders of your former guild, but all you're proving at this point is that you're worse human beings. Grow up, let it go, and let everyone get back to the point of this game, which is to have fun.
/salute
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Zal Jan 24th 2011 3:19PM
I can understand someone who takes a game very serious and it may be a portion of their life, I am fine with that and can understand. But the level some people take it is just amazing, border line appalling. This is a game, it is meant to be fun and relaxing. One should not have to come home from work and be expected to act in game like they were still at work. Turning what are supposed to be social affairs into what are essentially businesses or organizations. If a guild just wants to raid some and have fun, be with fellow players who have similar interests in wanting to experience the story but in a relaxed manner then they should. Those that are not alright with that should leave instead of causing problems. Understand different people have varying ideas of what they consider fun, if a group of people do not follow your philosophy then don't try and change them, go find other like you. On populated servers, there should be more than enough people and guilds that you can find somewhere to fit in.
Stop turning this game into the world those of us like to take a break from, you're just ruining for us and yourselves.
Lagavulin Jan 24th 2011 3:27PM
This is not a guild war. A guild war is when this happens on a pvp server and the kicked members all change factions, and then continually harass and kill their former guild members, especially outside raid entrances on raiding nights.
Or, two guilds may simply declare war on each other because that Alliance guild has it coming.
Cabalier Jan 24th 2011 3:37PM
Actually I think is kind of difficult to judge this situation, I am in the same situation here, a small casual guild, everyone wants to raid but 50% of the people is not geared or don’t have the hands, I´m sort of an officer, and the problem here is: one of the rules of the guild is that every day we roll dices with all the people is there to raid, and the dices decide which one go, this works more or less fine in WOTLK. But in CATA is starting to be really frustrating, the best tank is out because of the dice and a newbie is there as main tank. the problem is that we already talk with the GM but he thinks that this way is fine, because chosing which one go, he say will make the people angry. so some people is getting angry to waste 2 hours everyday in the raid when at the moment the dices are roll you know it will not work. This doesn’t mean that we don’t help the rest of players etc, but when a DPS pala is doing 3000 DPS in raid with 342 gearlevel and he sais " I´m doing the best I can" is sooo frustrating.
Anyway the bulling thing and the member stealing is a ugly thing none the less.
ecwfrk Jan 25th 2011 7:51AM
Dice rolls rarely work when the raid content is difficult or new. It tends to just lead to lots of failed raids leading people to feel like the guild has no hope of success as a raiding guild. Which might be ok if it's a bunch of RL friends who are fairly casual players but with random players who expect some kind of progression, it's a doomed policy.
A successful raid guild has to be about getting as many people as possible not just raiding, but raiding successfully. That means getting your best people geared up as much as possible as quickly as possible but also making sure those people are working towards guild success as much as personal success and are willing to take steps backwards at times to help bring others up to their level.
What my guild did, back when I was raiding (I quit raiding in TBC, but the policies would still work today) was to establish a core group of our best players and have them work the easiest raid until they had the raid on farm. Once that happened, rather than move right to the next raid, they split into 2 groups, each adding 5 new raiders, and worked that until the new 10 were ready to stand alone. At that point the top group moved on to focus on the next raid and once the new 10 were geared enough, they split and started the process anew. We also made sure our core group was spending some time each week running people through lower tiered raids (these days, they'd run them through Heroics for JP instead, which is even easier).
So at the lowest tier of raids, there were always at least 2 groups farming gear and bringing in new players to start raiding while we also had dedicated groups working through the higher tier raids and helping others become raid ready. The top people could have moved faster through the content, but by focusing on the guild as a whole instead their own short term glory, by the time the next tier of content was released we had dozens of people able to jump into it or fill in with the core group if a member left or was unavailable.
Another key to success was training. Our best players of each class (or people who knew how to play the class well enough to teach others) would stage training sessions, for people like that IL342 pally who couldn't break 3k DPS, where they'd jump in Vent and coach them in how to do better in raids.
An hour or two a week of training less talented players in how to play better was hugely beneficial as there's a lot of people who can't learn from things like forum posts or youtube videos and need someone to walk them through it. The willingness to do that kind of thing is hard to find in people these days, but it can mean a lot both towards the success of the guild as well as garnering guild loyalty by letting people know the guild is there to help them succeed rather than just use them.
Aedilhild Jan 25th 2011 11:32AM
You're right, Ecwfrk, that such patience and selflessness is rare. More often, a guild's better players become protective of their success — some going so far as to dismiss lesser-skilled members and sell their potential for improvement far short.
Starlin Jan 24th 2011 3:45PM
In these days of guild rep, gkicking a guild member is a serious decision. Why not just demote? Or skip inviting them to raids? Or encourage them to raid with another guild? They'll leave on their own eventually. Or if they value their reputation too much they'll have to come around.
Dysmorphia Jan 24th 2011 3:56PM
Gkicking is appropriate when players are disrupting the guild atmosphere and don't stop when warned. Though, if the disruption is severe enough, an outright kick is fine, too.
In a casual guild, sucking at raiding will just earn you a demotion to non-raider until you get your act together. You can still hang out and enjoy the social atmosphere, maybe tag along for an old school raid or an easy farm night.
But there is no place for jerks in a casual guild. When the priority is raiding in a fun atmosphere, and someone is ruining that atmosphere, they need to move on. Sometimes, they need some help moving on.
Neirin Jan 24th 2011 4:48PM
I completely agree with Dysmorphia. In my guild we only apply gkicks to inactive people and people that spoil the social experience of our guild. We made our reputation by raiding well, but we've kept our reputation by being likable.
Starlin Jan 24th 2011 5:30PM
Yeah, gkicking has its time and place, but what you are actually doing is pretty severe.
You are resetting their guild rep to zero. A huge blow to anyone that's managed to get into the higher tiers of reputation.
You are removing them from their usual social chat channel.
You are removing them from their raid team.
Sure, if benching and/or demoting didn't work, it's gkick time, but it shouldn't be the first reaction. It should probably be the second to last reaction right before reporting them to a GM.
Zanathos Jan 24th 2011 6:40PM
You don't actually lose rep until you join another guild. If that's a big deal to you, you should first of all not be a disruptive jerk. Failing that, you can beg your guild to take you back and promise to straighten out and fly straight.
Since they immediately joined another guild and waged war, I think it's safe to assume they didn't value guild rep or their social circle as much as they enjoyed being entitled douches.
Meiji Jan 24th 2011 3:52PM
I think in your situation, honesty is the best policy. Be upfront with your members about what's going on. Screenshot and post on your guild forums to detail the ugly behavior from the other guild master so your rank and file can see the sorts of jerks that they seem to be.
In general, progression puts a lot of stress on a guild and its one of the key points where good officers can make a huge difference. Everyone learns the encounter at a different rate and for some fast learning players, they are going to feel/express frustration at the progress of their slower comrades. As an officer, there are two things that are crucial for the health of your guild.
1. You need to show that you know the encounter and your guild and have developed a strategy for the fight that addresses both factors. You also need to show that you're willing and able to modify this strategy as needed when its not working.
2. Identify players who are underperforming/not learning from their mistakes and figure out a way to help them or be willing to replace them. This is a key to keeping your veteran players in line.
Elboogieoogie Jan 24th 2011 3:57PM
It is my belief that with the way guilds are setup now in Cata with guild rep and perks that you cannot gkick someone and not expect some sort of reprisal. If these members who were gkicked were some of your more hardcore members they probably also contributed a lot to your guilds experience and achievements. To just kick them is like a slap in the face, "Thanks for leveling our guild, Later". A much better approach IMO is to talk to the players, tell them that their actions are having a negative impact on the guild (atleast in the eyes of the officers), and that if they want to continue their actions they will not be invited to future raids or guild events. Let them choose to leave the guild if they wish but they helped get your guild to where it is today and deserve better than to be thrown out in the cold.
Zanathos Jan 24th 2011 6:42PM
If you can't adhere to behaving in a reasonable manner, you deserve nothing.
Dok Jan 25th 2011 12:47PM
While I agree completely with Zanathos blizzard may have created the reason for the retaliation by removing these perks upon /gkick. What might have been a person or two moving on is now a vendetta for a perceived loss.
Duckaholica Jan 26th 2011 12:28AM
No matter the changes to the guild system, "retaliation" is NEVER justified.
Saltytoes Jan 24th 2011 3:59PM
A similar situation happened in our guild a while ago...
We are a RPing guild, we had a rather unique theme at the time, and we had some guidelines that people had to follow. Yet one day, a member happened to break those guidelines, and it resulted in a gkick, within the hour, he had created his own guild with the exact same theme, he tried to get our members into his guild. Thankfully, it didn't last long.
Now... the second time it was different. This one person tried to both In-Character and Out-of-Character undermine the GM's authority, eventually getting to the point that he and his posse gquit and made their own guild. This guild wasn't just doing the exact same thing, but they were in the same area, but they almost got to the point where they were griefing us. One of the things that -really- stings is that the "defector", was a close friend who was responsible for getting -me- ranked up in the guild in the first place.
Now, an expansion later, I find that they are going out to whatever guilds -we- had contact with and tried to get them in some sort of a "Mass guild alliance", it worked for a lot of it, and now we are in a rut while they are thriving.
I guess I just needed to rant, and since it's on this topic... I might as well do it here rather than the Server Forums.
docbrown Jan 24th 2011 4:00PM
I was until recently an officer in small-ish guild, we didn't have people queueing out the door for 25 man raiding so to speak but we aren't tiny. During my tenure as an officer we had this happen to us twice.
First incident was during TBC, a rather catty gossip loving member formed herself a little clique by getting very personal with other members and then took her little entourage with her. Afterwards it was a lot of "friendly" whispers trying to coax people away. Their guild website was also filled with little jibes at us. Suffice to say, she couldn't lead the guild or raids and would basically accept anyone to bolster their numbers, they failed miserably.
Second incident was near the end of WoLK and was far more unpleasant. Again it started with a clique forming who after initially concocting a plan to turn us into a hardcore raid guild with a DKP system which was roundly rejected by the majority of officers. They then began to hatch a little scheme to split the guild up, making malicious rumours about myself, the gm and other officers who dared disagree with them. Even had the cheek to use our vent server. When it came to a head, they did a mass gquit with pre-prepared statements on the guild website which was shortly after taken down by our webmaster (also one of the splitters and paid for by a member who didn't leave) and took control of the aforementioned vent server. In the weeks after they kept whispering members to "explain" what they did, myself included (suffice to say a polite but very honest rebuttal was given). Anyhow, after a couple of months 3 of the four officers stopped playing and the remaining one couldn.t handle it, another fail guild. Some members who left tried to get back into our guild but the manner in which they left didn't leave them many friends.
Suffice to say, remember who your friends are. The other people who helped you raid before you back stab them okay? Wall of text over, hang in there stressed I know how you feel!
Trisnic Jan 24th 2011 4:00PM
My guild went through a pretty bad split back in November. There were a number of reasons for the split which I won't get into but the main thing was that I was going to kick 3 members who were not fitting in. One officer did not like this and he left to form a new guild. He told a series of lies about the direction of our guild in Cataclysm and then talked up his own guild with promises that have yet to occur.
In the end around 25-30 people left to join this new guild. This was followed by more "poaching", forum trolling, trade chat trolling, and harassment to this day of me and members in my guild (random insulting messages etc).
That guild, having yet to achieve what it was said it was going to do, is now a leveling guild and it is known for having no rules, immaturity, trolling even it's own members, nothing being organized and in general being a bad guild. The more mature members that left us have moved on from this other guild.
Having gone through it there are a few additional things I would recommend.
First don't just talk to your members, have a meeting and discuss the direction of the guild. Ask for feedback on what your members think you can change, ask people if they can help with recruitment or if they have good friends that are looking for a guild (this worked for us in the ICC boredom months). Explain the split but do not make the meeting about the split, make the meeting about the guild as it stands. I would recommend that you let them know that other people are being approached about this new guild, but everyone has probably already been approached.
Secondly, if you are getting harassed and it sounds like you are report it to Blizzard. Report any forum slander and trade slander and put people on ignore. Do not respond to it through trade or the forums. This will make them want to harass you even harder.
These split off guilds really do not usually last especially when they were formed in this way. When they were formed more maturely they can last, but when they are formed through such bitterness they tend not to go on very long. Also recruiting from your pool of players instead of from the server or WoW community as a whole doesn't seem like something that will last.
If you can get through this you will come out with a better and stronger guild in the end.
Good luck.
Djinn Jan 25th 2011 7:57AM
Yeah Ive been in guild drama before too. I really had it out with a guildie of mine when I was playing on an alt, he was tanking and I had my shadow priest there. Well there was this shaman in our run being an idiot so my guildie just does nothing lets this guy who was the healer die and we wiped a couple times, he thought it was funny and was just in general being a jerk and cost me a bad run a few gold in unnecessary repairs and in general just made me mad. He now has me on ignore as I do him but we are still in the guild. I don't know if he talks bad about me or not but I certainly don't have much good to say about him..
Tim Jan 24th 2011 4:08PM
This is one of the exact reasons you can't take wow to seriously or your guild or other players too seriously.
What's to prevent an O from just gkicking you? What's to prevent an O from raiding the guild bank, or just a member with access? You name it all these and many more things have happened.
This is interesting because I'm in a similar situation now. I'm geared up, actually have two geared up toons and am antsy to raid. Some other guildies are , but not everyone. Plus the guild has just gone through a 'split' and is doing test runs with another guild. This is a leadership problem in this case. No communication has been made as to guild direction, time tables etc.
This is the one thing that is really a love/hate relationship with wow, and now with guild lvls and guild rep it makes it a little more challenging.