The Queue: Stonecore frustrations

Today we skip the flowery intro, because I really want to get straight to answering this first question.
Lipstick asked:
Why does everyone hate heroic Stonecore?
Oh boy! I've been hoping somebody would ask this for weeks. I am so excited I could spit! While I go through why I think everybody hates the Stonecore, please keep in mind that I'm largely discussing this instance in the context of PUGs in which you can't necessarily take the time to sit down and analyze boss data or parse your combat log to find out what happened to you. Also note that many of the things I describe below are being fixed in patch 4.0.6 -- something many players are calling nerfs, but I like to call making Stonecore not broken.
Let me break this down by boss.
First is Corborus. Corborus's burrow/unborrow timer is very strict, to the point that the very narrow area of crumbling dirt is wide enough that you will die if you run the wrong direction out of it. If you're slightly closer to the left than you are to the right, if you do not run left, you will die. Considering the snap decision nature of the ability, that's very unfriendly to people learning the fight. Your reaction is going to be, "I need to get out of this" and not, "I should run left." Doable? Absolutely. It's not impossible at all. But it's unfriendly.
To make things worse, the adds that spawn throughout the fight can daze you. If you get dazed in Corborus's trail, you will die. It is a death sentence, and there is very little avoiding it regardless of how good a player you are. If you haven't died to this boss before, I guarantee you that you will one day, no matter how awesome a player you are.

The person who died did everything right -- he ran behind a spike when the AoE was cast. Because he did everything right, he assumes that the fight must not be LoS-based; it must be something else. The others in the group assume he is a terrible player and wasn't actually behind a spike, even though he was. None of them know that the real reason the person died was because the spikes don't break line of sight when you're inside of the hitbox, even though it's between you and the mob.
Once I explained it to everybody, the reaction from the group was, "Oh, that's really stupid." It is stupid. It's a very poorly designed encounter, one that I would personally describe as broken. Those spikes should not spawn inside of Slabhide's hitbox at all, unless the purpose of this encounter is to teach players that World of Warcraft's LoS mechanics don't work properly. Wrath of the Lich King raiders learned that lesson on Sindragosa, which was the worst raid encounter of that expansion, in my opinion.
Then Ozruk. Ozruk's primary problem is being fixed in patch 4.0.6. The Shatter mechanic is designed in such a way that you will wipe to him when you first encounter him. It isn't negotiable. It isn't a matter of seeing Shatter being cast and then running away from it. If you try to do that you will die, which is different from the normal version of the encounter. You need to turn and start running when the Paralyze ability is cast, including the tank. And then Ozruk will use his ability. There's no way for a tank to know that and adapt to it. There's no picking up the pieces if members of your group don't know how it works, especially the tank. Unless they're clairvoyant, they are going to die learning this fight, and the mechanics are set up in a way that they might not fully understand why they died.
You are hit with Paralyze. If you have a DoT on your character, Paralyze is immediately removed. If you're a tank killing Ozruk for the first time and your Paralyze debuff was removed the moment it went up, you may not have noticed it at all. When you die, your immediate thought is going to be, "Oh, I didn't run out of Shatter fast enough." What is there to indicate that you were supposed to turn and run away? You didn't remove Paralyze intentionally. You didn't plan for its removal. It just happened without your knowledge, and then you died, not actually learning anything about the Shatter mechanic -- a spell that most certainly does not function like other Shatters we have come to know in raiding.
Is the boss possible? Again, yes. Is it counterintuitive and very difficult for players to understand? Absolutely. The mechanics of the fight work against themselves. In patch 4.0.6, the Shatter cast time is being increased so this problem should be resolved.

Personally, I think Stonecore is one step of difficulty above all of the other heroics. In the normals first, heroics second, raids third progression, I think it sits more in the raid level of difficulty and understanding how the game works. In fact, I would say Ozruk is more difficult than the normal mode of every single boss in the current tier of raiding except for Cho'gall, Nefarian and Al'Akir. Once you learn him, it's not a problem, but he certainly takes more work to learn than any other heroic boss. Other heroic bosses are hard, but how many of them make you sit down and really pick the game's mechanics apart?
... and that was about a thousand words, so I'm going to keep these next questions extremely short. This Stonecore thing very likely should have been its own post, but what can you do?
Brock asked:
My guild downed Halfus this past week. Should we stay in Twilight Bastion, or should we try and do the first boss in each of the raids or something entirely different?
This is always a tough question when raiding isn't strictly linear, because people are all going to have their own opinions of what's harder and what's easier. If you want the cop-out answer, I think you'll be fine doing the bosses in any order you'd like, as long as you save Cho'gall, Nefarian and Al'Akir for last. If you want a little more direction than that, my raid's first six boss kills, in order, were:
- Magmaw
- Omnotron Defense System
- Halfus Wyrmbreaker
- Valiona and Theralion
- Maloriak
- Conclave of Wind
Ishammel asked:
I was doing the Thunder Falls fishing daily a few days ago and at one stage, four non-targetable female dwarves spawned next to the stream, then proceeded to do a dance in a circle. There was no emote, music, or any other script I've seen running. It lasted for about 15 seconds and then they disappeared. Have you ever seen this or any idea what its purpose might be? My internet search skills have failed me.
That was someone using the Chalice of the Mountain Kings, an archaeology item. It's a purely cosmetic item that does nothing other than what you just described.
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Reader Comments (Page 12 of 14)
cyanea85 Jan 26th 2011 4:57PM
It seems to me that he's more like a mercenary than a "good guy".
cyanea85 Jan 26th 2011 4:56PM
Let's not forget the room before Ozruk, with idiot tanks who tank things right where they're standing with no preparations made for patting sentries, or DPS who totally ignore aggroed sentries and cause me THE HEALER to run up and DPS it as fast as I can.
thenk83 Jan 26th 2011 5:07PM
I actually love Stonecore because it requires some skill. It's just sad people don't know how move from a cloud of dust, DoT themselves, and when DBM says take cover they just stand there. It's not that hard.
Personally I think Stonecore isn't a DPS race. Just keep yourself alive and be situationally aware. Thats all.
SamLowry Jan 27th 2011 12:29AM
I can't even run DBM on my machine--everything's so minimized on my 4 year old laptop (big computer having Cata-related login issues that I'm still waiting for Blizz to fix) that it won't let me run any addons.
Will Jan 26th 2011 5:23PM
When the next tier of raiding drops and T11 becomes purchasable with Justice Points, is Blizz planning to make all of the pieces purchasable with JP or will the head and shoulders still require the tokens from Nefarian and Cho'gall?
I don't know if anyone's considered that, but that switch might help out a lot with folks who don't raid or are trying to get caught up to everybody else.
jam Jan 26th 2011 5:30PM
I'll mention that one of the things that made Corborus infinitely easier is that the adds spawn and you can attack them before they start spreading. As the tank, I go stand right next to the crystal barrage. Once the nameplates pop up, I move in, Thrash, and run the hell out. I'll often do a significant amount of damage on them, and I can just kite the boss away until the dps finishes them off.
Anyway, melee dps *can* quite easily contribute one good aoe before they have to all run away. We even finished Corborus without wiping after both Hunter's died to the dust of laggy death. Just me, a frost dk, and the healer.
Mike Jan 26th 2011 5:35PM
This may have been asked already. What is the consensus on Chaos Orb rolls? Do you need, greed or discuss with the group before clicking?
Grovinofdarkhour Jan 26th 2011 6:04PM
The ONLY people who can see them are blacksmiths, engineers, leatherworkers and tailors of at least 425+ skill.
My recommendation would be that all of these people should need on them.
As a LW/Eng, I actually have TWO professions that require them. (Unfortunately, I don't foresee ever getting twice as many rolls as others...) So I pretty much have to hit need every time.
Pyromelter Jan 26th 2011 7:45PM
Always hit need unless you are purposefully passing to a guildie or a friend.
mel Jan 26th 2011 6:03PM
Here's another..
Does anyone know which flying mount has the least amount of "bobbing" in their flying animation? I hate the frikken bobbing. Maybe it's an inner-ear thing or a brain tumor or whatever, but watching my proto-drake bob up and down gives me motion sickness after a while. The dragon hawks are especially bad.
I have the mechanohog and I'm working towards the trike for ground mounts. I love the smooth ride. Anyone know anything like that for the air? I'm not an engineer, so the choppers are out.
Drakkenfyre Jan 26th 2011 6:27PM
The choppers would be worse for you. Not only do they bob, but they occasionally stall out, and drop several feet before restarting.
No flying mounts in the game, to my knowledge, lack a bobbing animation. Maybe the slightest would be Mimron's Head? It's still a chopper, but I don't think the bobbing is quite as bad. I do not know for sure, tho.
Tertia Feb 3rd 2011 3:58AM
The recruit-a-friend rocket just hovers without bobbing (I assume other rockets are the same).
Vaylie Jan 26th 2011 6:11PM
About Slabhide and LoSing him when the pillars drop in his hitbox: If you turn off your auto-attack (press ESC), then your LoS will be successful. There's been similar bugs in the past, where if you're still within range and auto-attacking a boss, it for some reason doesn't recognize that you're LoSing an ability.
Semele Jan 26th 2011 7:21PM
I don't know about that...considering I get LoS messages while I'm trying to dps him when he's on the ground. If it gives me those messages and won't connect while I'm trying to melee, I don't think that turning off autoattack is the key. I tend to see it more as the columnist presented it. It's the spikies in his hitbox that don't protect you once he rises up.
Maz Jan 26th 2011 6:38PM
"In fact, I would say Ozruk is more difficult than the normal mode of every single boss in the current tier of raiding except for Cho'gall, Nefarian and Al'Akir"
I'm sorry, but that's just flat out wrong.
Semele Jan 26th 2011 7:17PM
Cata heroics are pretty wake up and take notice after nearly being able to snooze through Wrath heroics in the last year. I bet there are whole groups of players who were not even playing when Wrath heroics were hard. And the buff in ICC gave groups a whole lot more leeway when it came to fight mechanics.
Stonecore (and Grim Batol) are harder than average because they include fights that are pretty much black or white. You are either in the wrong spot and dead, or you are in the right one and ok. There is no wiggle room, no leeway for lag, and no time to think. And if one person dies on some of these bosses, the other four are just not going to be able to recover. If your one ranged person dies on Corborus, you are SoL. The same with the tank on Ozruk. Even if some person non-essential to the mechanics dies, you may not end with enough dps to take the boss down.
Ozruk is particularly troubling because it relies SO heavily on one person dancing the boss for everyone else. It's the type of tanking that non-raid tanks have not been exposed to in a long while. Even a good tank will probably need a half dozen wipes to get the dance. And I don't think it's so much that his elemental bulwark is on a longer timer, I think it is that the paralyze, shatter, ground slam sequence gets faster the longer he is alive.
Lachdanan Jan 26th 2011 7:39PM
I really don't see what all the fuss is about with Stonecore.
I did it today for the first time. Of course our tank left as soon as he/she saw which instance it was, so while we were waiting for another one I had a few minutes read up on the strats - and they're really quite simple. It went just fine, even with one DPS who kept dying because she wasn't focused (personal stuff happening, not the point).
Conclusion : even with only four people most of the time, we only wiped twice, and only because of sloppy pulls on trash.
Bigkatt Jan 26th 2011 7:44PM
Why is it that when I log off as I'm riding my flying mount I'm on the ground, but when I log back on my mount is hovering slightly above the ground and not how I was when I logged off?
Not a big deal, just curious if there is a reason.
Chris Jan 26th 2011 7:46PM
"Because he did everything right, he assumes that the fight must not be LoS-based; it must be something else. The others in the group assume he is a terrible player and wasn't actually behind a spike, even though he was."
Oh man - this *totally* happened to me the other night. I had no idea why I died and of course our snarky pug healer presumed that he "knew" I wasn't behind a spike. Now I have a retort :)
Bradnoy Jan 26th 2011 8:10PM
In the Queue the other day, a question was asked about viewing the website on a mobile device with comments by going to i.wow.joystiq.com. Thats great, but when I click the article to view, it still re-directs me to the commentless wow.joystiq.com (for example http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/01/26/the-queue-stonecore) and to view the comments I have to manually add the i.
does anyone else have this problem?