The Queue: Stonecore frustrations

Today we skip the flowery intro, because I really want to get straight to answering this first question.
Lipstick asked:
Why does everyone hate heroic Stonecore?
Oh boy! I've been hoping somebody would ask this for weeks. I am so excited I could spit! While I go through why I think everybody hates the Stonecore, please keep in mind that I'm largely discussing this instance in the context of PUGs in which you can't necessarily take the time to sit down and analyze boss data or parse your combat log to find out what happened to you. Also note that many of the things I describe below are being fixed in patch 4.0.6 -- something many players are calling nerfs, but I like to call making Stonecore not broken.
Let me break this down by boss.
First is Corborus. Corborus's burrow/unborrow timer is very strict, to the point that the very narrow area of crumbling dirt is wide enough that you will die if you run the wrong direction out of it. If you're slightly closer to the left than you are to the right, if you do not run left, you will die. Considering the snap decision nature of the ability, that's very unfriendly to people learning the fight. Your reaction is going to be, "I need to get out of this" and not, "I should run left." Doable? Absolutely. It's not impossible at all. But it's unfriendly.
To make things worse, the adds that spawn throughout the fight can daze you. If you get dazed in Corborus's trail, you will die. It is a death sentence, and there is very little avoiding it regardless of how good a player you are. If you haven't died to this boss before, I guarantee you that you will one day, no matter how awesome a player you are.

The person who died did everything right -- he ran behind a spike when the AoE was cast. Because he did everything right, he assumes that the fight must not be LoS-based; it must be something else. The others in the group assume he is a terrible player and wasn't actually behind a spike, even though he was. None of them know that the real reason the person died was because the spikes don't break line of sight when you're inside of the hitbox, even though it's between you and the mob.
Once I explained it to everybody, the reaction from the group was, "Oh, that's really stupid." It is stupid. It's a very poorly designed encounter, one that I would personally describe as broken. Those spikes should not spawn inside of Slabhide's hitbox at all, unless the purpose of this encounter is to teach players that World of Warcraft's LoS mechanics don't work properly. Wrath of the Lich King raiders learned that lesson on Sindragosa, which was the worst raid encounter of that expansion, in my opinion.
Then Ozruk. Ozruk's primary problem is being fixed in patch 4.0.6. The Shatter mechanic is designed in such a way that you will wipe to him when you first encounter him. It isn't negotiable. It isn't a matter of seeing Shatter being cast and then running away from it. If you try to do that you will die, which is different from the normal version of the encounter. You need to turn and start running when the Paralyze ability is cast, including the tank. And then Ozruk will use his ability. There's no way for a tank to know that and adapt to it. There's no picking up the pieces if members of your group don't know how it works, especially the tank. Unless they're clairvoyant, they are going to die learning this fight, and the mechanics are set up in a way that they might not fully understand why they died.
You are hit with Paralyze. If you have a DoT on your character, Paralyze is immediately removed. If you're a tank killing Ozruk for the first time and your Paralyze debuff was removed the moment it went up, you may not have noticed it at all. When you die, your immediate thought is going to be, "Oh, I didn't run out of Shatter fast enough." What is there to indicate that you were supposed to turn and run away? You didn't remove Paralyze intentionally. You didn't plan for its removal. It just happened without your knowledge, and then you died, not actually learning anything about the Shatter mechanic -- a spell that most certainly does not function like other Shatters we have come to know in raiding.
Is the boss possible? Again, yes. Is it counterintuitive and very difficult for players to understand? Absolutely. The mechanics of the fight work against themselves. In patch 4.0.6, the Shatter cast time is being increased so this problem should be resolved.

Personally, I think Stonecore is one step of difficulty above all of the other heroics. In the normals first, heroics second, raids third progression, I think it sits more in the raid level of difficulty and understanding how the game works. In fact, I would say Ozruk is more difficult than the normal mode of every single boss in the current tier of raiding except for Cho'gall, Nefarian and Al'Akir. Once you learn him, it's not a problem, but he certainly takes more work to learn than any other heroic boss. Other heroic bosses are hard, but how many of them make you sit down and really pick the game's mechanics apart?
... and that was about a thousand words, so I'm going to keep these next questions extremely short. This Stonecore thing very likely should have been its own post, but what can you do?
Brock asked:
My guild downed Halfus this past week. Should we stay in Twilight Bastion, or should we try and do the first boss in each of the raids or something entirely different?
This is always a tough question when raiding isn't strictly linear, because people are all going to have their own opinions of what's harder and what's easier. If you want the cop-out answer, I think you'll be fine doing the bosses in any order you'd like, as long as you save Cho'gall, Nefarian and Al'Akir for last. If you want a little more direction than that, my raid's first six boss kills, in order, were:
- Magmaw
- Omnotron Defense System
- Halfus Wyrmbreaker
- Valiona and Theralion
- Maloriak
- Conclave of Wind
Ishammel asked:
I was doing the Thunder Falls fishing daily a few days ago and at one stage, four non-targetable female dwarves spawned next to the stream, then proceeded to do a dance in a circle. There was no emote, music, or any other script I've seen running. It lasted for about 15 seconds and then they disappeared. Have you ever seen this or any idea what its purpose might be? My internet search skills have failed me.
That was someone using the Chalice of the Mountain Kings, an archaeology item. It's a purely cosmetic item that does nothing other than what you just described.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, The Queue, Cataclysm
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Reader Comments (Page 8 of 14)
cyanea85 Jan 26th 2011 4:55PM
My personal favorite (as a hunter) is constantly Misdirecting. Works great in guild groups when the tank and healer are guildies and we pug an asshole. MD to asshole, healer lets him die, tank rounds them up, proceed like normal.
As a healer, I just don't heal or rez them. Ever.
Pyromelter Jan 26th 2011 6:06PM
The simplest thing to do is what healers do: Don't heal him.
Other things will require some coordination. A tank can simply not taunt, but it's hard to know when not to taunt (because the loose mob may be heading towards a healer or other dps); this can easily be remedied with a hunter misdirecting or a rogue doing tricks of the trade to the offending douche canoe.
Usually after 5 or 6 deaths, the person will be like "why am I not getting healed" or "why are all the mobs aggro'ing me" and at this point, he will either shape up and be a good soldier, or he will become a belligerent navel gazing mouth breather and likely drop group.
themightysven Jan 26th 2011 11:42AM
Just did my first full random (cata) heroic last night and got Stonecore. Though we wiped in Ozurk's Lobby (the hunter's cat pulled two more packs and one of those bouncy guys) we did fairly well overall. Decent tank and pro healer. The one boss that they didn't stop and explain was Oz strangely. Anyway, if that's the hardest and most broken I should do more heroics. Yay me.
Question for all the queue writers, or even a WRUP question, what old dungeon would you like to see a heroic for a la SFK and VVC ?
Tirrimas Jan 26th 2011 11:52AM
"...the hunter's cat pulled two more packs..."
Have any other hunters noticed "odd" behavior from their pets since Cat launched? My pets will finish on my target, then go zooming off to kill something else - usually (but not always) a critter, then come back. I don't have anything targeted, and I didn't send them off. Pet's on Defensive usually, but I've been using Passive much more lately just to keep the darned things under control.
Caz Jan 26th 2011 1:01PM
"...Question for all the queue writers, or even a WRUP question, what old dungeon would you like to see a heroic for a la SFK and VVC ?...."
Dire Maul.
Astoreth Jan 26th 2011 1:28PM
@tirrimas
All of my warlock pets have been misbehaving. I've hit my /petattack keybind and watched them stand there blithely picking their noses. Or they'll give the intended target a single half-hearted swipe before charging after something else entirely. My succubus regularly takes it on herself to Seduce some apparently very threatening frogs and sheep. And of course the whole time I'm the one who looks like a flaming idiot because I can't control my pets.
I've been hearing that this is a common issue, but I don't know a good way to compensate for it. For the moment I've got /petattack bound to several of my regular spells just to make certain I can keep them on track (though even then they sometimes ignore me). And I take special delight in sacrificing Betwyn to the spear gauntlet in Throne of the Tides.
Grovinofdarkhour Jan 26th 2011 1:51PM
Yep, all my pets have been really screwy. Auto Shot, too.
I'm thinking of writing to the makers of Jack Daniels and suggesting they make their product integrate more smoothly with running heroics.
Wolfbait Jan 26th 2011 2:21PM
It's a bug. From my understanding, if your pet has a non-damage AoE, for example Tailspin, the spell will put the critters on your pets aggro table. After your pet is done with it's primary target it'll switch to 'Kill Critters Mode'.
Boobah Jan 26th 2011 3:00PM
Felguards, in particular, have had screwy AI since BC (ie, when they were introduced.) If their charge is on auto-cast, the cooldown is up, and there is something on their aggro-table chargeable (like, say, the mob you have locked down with a fear) they'll charge it. Then waddle slowly back to the mob they were supposed to be hitting.
There's also the general pet AI issue where rooted and feared (trembling or running) mobs don't count as CC'd. So a shaman's searing totem will gleefully break fears and roots if you don't keep a close eye on 'em (which generally means destroying it, Flame Shocking the real target, and then dropping it again.)
Grovinofdarkhour Jan 26th 2011 4:14PM
And to answer your original question, I'd like to see a heroic Scarlet Monastery.
Four wings of awesome. Like siamese-twin chickens.
VioletArrows Jan 26th 2011 5:16PM
My biggest problem seems to be if my pet's holding on to 2-3 mobs, after it finishes the first mob, it will ignore the others beating on it and return to me. Maybe if it gets stunned it'll finally be annoyed enough to attack back, but the whole bring angry mobs into melee range is really pissing me off. *Sometimes* I can get it to turn around and go back to tanking, but sometimes it doesn't even listen and will come back no matter what.
Utakata Jan 26th 2011 11:49AM
Alex Ziebart answered inpart:
"First is Corborus. Corborus's burrow/unborrow timer is very strict, to the point that the very narrow area of crumbling dirt is wide enough that you will die if you run the wrong direction out of it. If you're slightly closer to the left than you are to the right, if you do not run left, you will die. Considering the snap decision nature of the ability, that's very unfriendly to people learning the fight. Your reaction is going to be, "I need to get out of this" and not, "I should run left." Doable? Absolutely. It's not impossible at all. But it's unfriendly."
This maybe the reason why I died to that a night ago...even though I though I Blink'd to a safe spot 5 yards away from the trail. That and perhaps coupled with server timing issues...that is, I was still standing in the trail server side, even though I was in the clear my side...
...but really, should a trail of dirt be hitting us that hard? :(
I believe Blizz is planning to distinguish the Corborus's dirt trail and his/her/its spawning mobs. Which for the first time I was there was very difficult to tell which was what in the heat of battle. They both virtually used the same particle effects. So is it bug or worm? At a time the Release Spirit prompt was my only guide. :(
"The last boss of Stonecore is really easy, so I won't even talk about her. She's like the free candy you get for enduring the rest of the instance."
...well, yes. Until you realsize that little poof of dirt under your feat was the big rock she was throwing at you. I've seen this squash the most seasoned player. So what is an easy fight, becomes very much a rinse and repeat affair as whiping goes. Blizz is planning to make that little poof of dirt much more noticeable in 4.0.6 I'm told.
jrblackyear Jan 26th 2011 12:00PM
I think Alex makes some valid points about Stonecore as being a difficult instance, although I disagree that said difficulty is a result of "broken" mechanics. In fact, we've seen all of these mechanics before on one boss or another, and we should have no problems pulling through relatively unscathed. Personally, I think the difficulty comes directly from the players in the group, especially PUGs. Since Cataclysm dropped over a month ago, I've noticed a surge in crappy players in all areas of the game. Vanilla dungeons, BC dungeons, Wrath dungeons and raids, quest groups, battlegrounds...it's all the same. Perhaps it's a case of people power-leveling through to 85 not having to learn class and encounter mechanics, I don't know for sure. But I do know that I honestly fear for the future of end-game PUGs-people just haven't taken the time nor the care to learn how to play well on their journeys to 85. I've had DK tanks in Cataclysm regs try to survive without using Bone Shield. I've had restoration Shaman try to keep everyone up with Chainheal spamming. Hunters forget to Misdirect; Mages don't wait for tank aggro; Warriors will tank in Fury with a 2Hander and a shield; the list goes on. I think we need to focus on educating each other rather than complaining about broken mechanics, because it's clear that as we get deeper into Cataclysm, things are only going to get harder. People need to learn their classes and their roles on each encounter before they claim it's the game's fault.
Jestin Jan 26th 2011 12:01PM
Boobah did an AMAZING job of - and with no offense to Alex - succinctly explaining the problems with Stonecore during yesterday's Queue, but it got buried on page 9 of the comments. I'm going to repost it here because I thought it was the best explanation I've read so far:
"Corborus one-shots people while they dodge spiders. Slabhide encourages healers and tanks to LOS each other. Ozruk hates melee (including tanks), and isn't too fond of paladin healers. Azil likes to separate healers and tanks, right when the tank takes the most damage. And she encourages the party to group up, and then drop a rock on their heads.
Don't get me wrong; just about every heroic boss has some reason to really hate fighting them (with the exception of Earthrager Ptah... unless you're a Warlock, Hunter, or Unholy Death Knight.)"
Pal Lokim Jan 26th 2011 12:16PM
This description makes it sound super fun.
Scorfula Jan 26th 2011 1:34PM
Quick tip for Paladin healers on Ozruk, switch your seal to Truth during this encounter and just keep judging on cooldown as usual.
You won't miss SoL, tank damage is very low if he's only taking the melee swings and not the AoE attacks, group damage is also low if your casters are careful not to spell reflect themselves up to the eyeballs.
It's probably very obvious to most of you, but you never know, someone might have just had an epiphany :)
Sedna Jan 26th 2011 12:01PM
Leatherworking, 505 to 510. Does Blizzard have any plans to fix this dead zone? I have been stuck at 507 for the last week. I've made three blue cloaks and more helms than I can imagine. I have farmed leather for hours on end and gotten no skill points. I am ready to give up on the profession until the gap is addressed. A single recipe at 505 would fix it.
I should say- I don't mind working hard and farming my brains out; I don't mind grinding rep for a recipe (hellooo, BC sets). I just get frustrated that my progression in this profession is linked entirely and totally to a random number generator right now- and not to the amount of effort I'm putting into it.
Daynthebold Jan 26th 2011 12:11PM
From the 4.0.6 patch notes: "Leatherworking
â—¦The 500 to 510 skill-up range for Leatherworking has been improved."
Wolfshanze Jan 26th 2011 12:15PM
Funny you should mention that... I JUST went from 505 to 510 in Leatherworking the past couple days.
Mats-wise, the cheapest way to do it is to make the Leather Helms from 505 to 507 (I believe they're yellow, but should be cheaper to make then the cloak-method).
At 507 till 510, you're stuck with the cloaks being the only yellow item (helms turn green at 507 and are no longer adviseable to lvl with).
I think it took me 6 cloaks to go from 507 to 510. Not sure if that's lucky or not... kinda sucked, but i'll take it and move on... mileage (of course) will vary... you might get it in three, you might get it in thirty... never know with the RNG. Of course at 510 LW, you're back in the driver seat and can lvl at will as long as you got the mats and access to Highbank in Twilight Highlands.
Grovinofdarkhour Jan 26th 2011 2:32PM
Rendered flat broke by leveling engineering first, I finally started on LW just a couple nights ago. (Thank God for wow-professions.com.) Only 485, and based on everyone's comments, I'm thinking it should get re-shelved for just a little while longer.
You never fully understand the danger of going dual-crafting for raiding purposes, and relegating all of your farming to an alt, until a new expansion hits. Having multiple raiding toons to get leveled & geared ahead of your farmer absolutely slams the door on his farming activities, and in turn, their professions. You end up having to buy your way to 525 off the AH, and then you ask yourself... "what was the point in having a farmer, anyway?" Engineering was mighty expensive to get to 525 in, and it looks like LW will be just as bad. It's been around 80g for the mats for each point, and just because you can throw the greens back on the AH doesn't mean anyone wants or needs them.
So this has become one more reason I'm sick of hearing about the neverending tweaks to 4.0.6, and just want the damn thing to hit already. Economics are dictating I level the farmer (still 77) at any time I'm not in a heroic or raid, and hearing about LW's 505-510 "dead zone" squarely in my path only affirms that.
So, Woot for Storm Peaks! I'm comin' home, baby!