Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsOfficers' Quarters: Choice and consequence
by Scott Andrews 
Jan 31st 2011 at 9:00AM
Guild officers are faced with difficult choices all too frequently. Not every choice seems momentous at the time, but occasionally time and consequences prove that it was so. That's why it's helpful to look back at the decisions we made and consider how those choices determined the state of our guild today.
Now that we have all fully embarked into the Cataclysm expansion, it's an interesting time to look back. Did a good decision during the lead-up to Tier 11 help to ensure a fun and successful content progression? Or, as one guild member is wondering, did a pivotal choice during Wrath doom a guild to mediocrity?
Dear Officers' Quarters,
This is neither a current issue nor one I had real influence on, but it concerned me and a tough decision by our officers.
During Wrath, sometime shortly after patch 3.3, our guild was among the better casual guilds on the server. I was a relative newcomer. Due to my insistence in playing a Beast Mastery hunter, and my abysmal luck in getting new gear drops, I was not among our best DPSers, but I held my own and was usually the last to die in a wipe. The problem came up when a new guild member, a Marksman hunter well beyond me in gear, was showing off Zod's Repeating Longbow, which he'd just obtained in our guild's secondary 25-man run. At the time, I felt rather miffed that this new hunter had obtained the bow before me, especially since that hunter was an alt.
The problem came when I grats'd him and commented that he was a "lucky bastard" and that he was obviously using up all of my "good karma with the RNG gods." Now, this kind of banter was common in guild chat, and my horrendous luck in gear drops had long since become a running joke in the guild. He took offense to this and retaliated with an insult. I tried to brush it off, but my pride was injured, and I retaliated in kind. His friend joined in against me, and the whole affair escalated. Eventually, the two of them decided to take their ball and go home, and promptly /gquit.I sense that you are wondering this because some part of you still feels responsible for what happened to the guild's raiding. Don't guilt yourself! Your guild's current state is not your fault. I'll explain why.
The guild leader later told me that the two who had left had told him they would return only if I was kicked from the guild. He said he would not do that, because he "valued me more as a person than he valued them as raiders." He will always have my gratitude for that.
I apologized many times for the whole affair, but our raids struggled without those players. This continued a trend, and we never progressed pass Sindragosa. Now we are behind other guilds our size in Cataclysm raid content, and there has been a general slump in raid vigor as of late. Could my guild leader's decision, kind and reasonable as it was, have been the wrong one?
Sticks of <Driven>
Echo Isles
Yes, you were part of some silly drama. It's a textbook example of how a simple misunderstanding can escalate into something ugly. It happens all too often when players who don't know each other very well communicate through typed words alone. Inflection and tone are not conveyed, someone takes umbrage at what's being said, and the whole thing explodes.
Yes, you should have backed down and apologized before things got too heated. However, the other players involved were the ones who issued the ultimatum to the guild leader, not you. You are not the one who took it that far. I don't know exactly what was said when you "retaliated," but it's just a stupid guild chat argument. That's not the sort of thing to demand someone's gkick over. The two players who quit sound like they have some maturity and/or entitlement issues.
Better off
Therefore, in my opinion, your guild is better off without them, or anyone who would take something so silly and turn it into something so serious. It's old-fashioned drama-mongering, and no guild needs that. The mature thing to do is to sit down, have a conversation about what happened, exchange apologies, and move on. Clearly, they were not prepared to do that.
Your guild leader made the right decision, to answer your question. The guild has paid a price for it, certainly, but if those two had stayed, there could have been even more drama and the price could have been much higher. It's possible the guild wouldn't even exist today.
Even so, the state of the guild is not your fault, because it is the responsibility of the officers to replace members who quit, particularly if they were so crucial to the roster. They had plenty of time to do so, but the guild still seems to be having a hard time. That's not on you. You can help your officers with recruiting, but ultimately the burden falls on them.
The measure of success
Finally, I would caution you and any other guild member not to measure your guild's success according to where you rank on your server's progression lists, especially at this point in the expansion. Much depends on how much time your guild spends raiding. The guilds that get world firsts often compress into a single day what is for another guild several weeks' worth of raid time.
The true mark of success is whether or not you have fun while you're trying to kill new bosses, and whether or not you can do so while still remaining true to the values of your guild. Count yourself lucky that your leaders regard values over progression. It's not always the case!
/salute
Join us to learn how to survive the leveling process, deal with guild perk freeloaders, and discuss the guild talent controversy or the guild reputation system. Send Scott your guild-related questions and suggestions at scott@wowinsider.com; you may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters! Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Zanathos Jan 31st 2011 3:32PM
A wise choice.
Malozing Jan 31st 2011 9:26PM
Some how I didn't type great in front of guildie, but I think you got my drift.
Kurtis Jan 31st 2011 10:54AM
Oh, sure - take all the umbrage. Don't leave any for us...
Our guild has seen similar drama several times. The biggest thing is just to move on from it. Casual, hardcore, it doesn't make much difference - it's just a game. Don't take it so seriously that you give yourself an ulcer over what might have been.
That said, I also doubt (from the description) that you could have fixed the situation at the time - people will only hear what they want to hear. /gkick and /gquit aren't solutions either. Kudos to the guild leader - in my opinion he handled things as best he could. Don't beat yourself up over it either. And most of all, don't let yourself get psyched out of progression. RNG doesn't keep a record of wrongs.
Phelps Jan 31st 2011 11:03AM
Also, as an officer: I don't do ultimatums. I'll pick for you, and you won't like it.
If the form of the ultimatum is, "do X or I'll /gquit", I'll save you the time and give you a /gkick as soon as it rolls across my screen. It's the same for other officers. You don't get a guild veto. Even if you are in the right, if you try to take over, I'm getting rid of you before it snowballs.
docbrown Jan 31st 2011 11:40AM
Phelps you sound like a sensible chap (or chapette), I was until recently an Officer in my guild and this is exactly the attitude I take. I would try to accommodate people as best I could but if you start making demands to the detriment of my guild then you're gone.
JerichoWin Jan 31st 2011 11:06AM
Scott always dishes out great advice! I wish my guild had enough people and activity to have drama about raiding! As of recent 95% of my members are on hiatus due to burn out. I've only logged in for scheduled runs, guild maintenance, to keep face as the guild leader, and work on my addons.
even in our little guild I would have said the same as your gl. Our only guild rule is stfu or gtfo.
Mordok Jan 31st 2011 11:08AM
Here it goes again........... we have a player who understands a problem, dealing with people who think they are better than anyone else. We also have a GM who appears to understand that the guild is a bunch of like minded people with a common cause ...... hopefully fun.
Allowing those people who think they are better than anyone else to give an ultimatum to the whole guild is WRONG. More power to the GM....WE ALL are better off without snobs like those two. WOW would be better without these "Jerks" and if all GMs would allow them to leave maybe they will go someplace ..... anyplace......but the wonderful world of WOW.
A-non-e-moose Jan 31st 2011 11:39AM
As an officer in our guild - for a long time - and one of the few that was not in the guild to begin with - I feel I have earnt my position, yet I have had a similar (yet not the same) problem with another officer.
This gentleman (for lack of a better word that can be said to all age groups) has repeatedly, for some reason, insulted me in guild - not even kept it on /o. Unfortunately for me, he is also the website master, and a RL friend of the GM and other officers. Now I wont say that the GM or others have in any way put the RL friendship over what needs to be done in wow. The guild is a generally friendly one, with little serious drama, and one I am comfortable with, so I dont want to leave, and its fair to say that he wont leave either. The most recent event was after a family death, and literally the day I posted to explain to the guild why I had been away, he randomly slagged me off in guild again. Sometimes you do have to respond with something, so I did insult him back, before ignoring all his toons (something I had done before - but the GM had asked me to unignore him as it would cause issues in raids). This time I have stated I wont ignore him. So I can understand the situation and the problems it can cause. I personally wouldnt recommend insulting them back, due to the problems it can cause. A quiet word with the GM and a screenie of what has been said - and be honest with what you said - usually calms the situation. However I cannot agree (in the case above) that you did anything wrong. As the advice says - you didnt make an ultamatum, and im sure that others explained the situation, which they didnt accept. If they cannot accept the real story like that, then imo your better off without them, as they would have caused more drama later, and probably worse.
g Jan 31st 2011 11:49AM
As the leader of a small but almost 5 year old semi-casual guild, I totally agree with your comments regarding how one measures success. We made a conscious decision when the release data of Cata was announced that we wouldn't start seriously raiding until January so that everybody would have time to enjoy the holidays with their families. Because of this, we didn't down a "real" raid boss (not counting the gear check/punching bag that is Argolath) until last week.
Could we have said "you're going to poopsock out 85 and get to all 346+ gear in 2 weeks"? Sure, and we would probably be nearing the end of normal raids and be getting ready for heroics soon. While it would be nice to announce that we just downed Cho'gall/Al'akir/Nefarian, we're ok with having only downed Magmaw because we're enjoying ourselves. No amount of internet fame and purples is worth sacrificing your happiness or ideals.
Shibdaddy Jan 31st 2011 11:54AM
A bit off topic, but where does the above screenshot come from? Is that Alexstraza and DW going at it?
Kaphik Jan 31st 2011 12:03PM
Do the quests in Twilight HIglands the red dragonflight send you on, and you'll see this cutscene.
Gimmlette Jan 31st 2011 12:03PM
We have a sentence in our Code of Conduct that reminds people to be careful of what you type in chat because we can't hear the words in your head. In our 3+ years of existence, I've only had to remind people 3 or 4 times that things could be misread. Generally, the comment printed is phrased to be mistaken, which can then lead to laughter, not to hard feelings. Plus, I remind people who may have taken something wrong, to step back, breathe and read the sentence out loud, putting emphasis on each word a little differently. Sometimes that's all it takes. I too, have to be reminded by my officers, on occasion, that people aren't out to make my life miserable, usually.
"The true mark of success is whether or not you have fun while you're trying to kill new bosses, and whether or not you can do so while still remaining true to the values of your guild."
^This. While several people see this as an opportunity to bash BM hunters, this isn't wholly about someone choosing to be a less-used spec. This is about the actions of people within a unit of people who should all be headed in the same direction. I've had this situation come up and my response was the same. "Um...you shouldn't be giving me ultimatums on how I run my guild. Either you agree with our stated objectives or you don't. If you don't, have fun wherever you land." Have we been gymped by some people leaving? At first, yes, but we found our center and have progressed without them.
Sticks,i t's hard not to beat yourself up, but let go of that. find your center and embrace what's right about your guild. Run with that. I am willing to bet you are one of the "best" guilds on the server for those who are in it.
Tirrimas Jan 31st 2011 12:26PM
"The true mark of success is whether or not you have fun while you're trying to kill new bosses, and whether or not you can do so while still remaining true to the values of your guild. Count yourself lucky that your leaders regard values over progression. It's not always the case! "
Hear, hear!
MrDrew Jan 31st 2011 12:57PM
The other guys were in the wrong and the other hunter was a dumb ass for getting his panties in a twist for you poking fun at him.
If someone pokes fun at you about loot drops put on your big girl panties and suck it up don't take offense.
To all of you downing the hunter who was rolling BM you are a bunch of mindless robots who made Wrath a joke and probably are the dps in the group who are the gogogogogo guy or the dps who drops group after anyone dies.
Sky Jan 31st 2011 1:05PM
Honestly, if you really want to eliminate drama in a guild just don't talk unless you absolutely have to.. The less chatter there is the less drama there will be. Usually if I want to talk to someone in my guild I just whisper them so as to not involve the rest of my guild. Cause honestly, what did you hope to accomplish with your comment "lucky bastard". That comment literally has no upside and a possible downside.
I personally maintain a professional relationship with my guild. That is, I don't have to like you to raid with you. That doesn't mean I don't have any friends in my guild but if I have something to say that doesn't really contribute anything to what the guild is doing then I don't say it, I wait till raiding is over and then I whisper my guildy friends about it. Problem solved, drama eliminated. It's really the people who think other people give a tihs about their opinion that usually start the drama. They will usually post some useless comment on gchat which starts an argument which ultimately ends up in people gquitting.
Fierna Jan 31st 2011 1:16PM
It seems worth pointing out that the guild is described as a casual guild. Players giving ultimatums about kicking other players makes no sense to me in that setting.
If you want DPS meters to determine whether people are in or out of raids then you won't want to be in a casual guild.
If you can't handle chat banter like an adult you probably don't want to be in a casual guild.
Seems like the guild leader made the right choice.
Eindrachen Jan 31st 2011 2:16PM
Some things to consider in this matter:
1. One bad spec doesn't restrict 25-man progression that badly. Now, I don't know the guild's progress exactly, or how it was working things out, but the fact is that if one person's spec is making a difference in success and failure on a boss, there's something wrong there.
Nobody should be ridiculing Sticks. If you want to be a complete douchewaffle and troll people you don't know, aim towards the guild as a whole, maybe. Of course, you do invite the requisite counterattacks, so don't come crying to us if someone points out your own failings in public after you do the same to them. If you don't like the temperature coming out of that kitchen, you shouldn't step in there.
2. Having said that... there is kinda a reason we have dual specs. They aren't expensive, and give you the ability to play what you want most of the time, and just dip into something more useful when the team needs you to do a bit better.
Now, naturally, nobody can really force anyone to do anything they don't want. But that also means you accept the harsh reality that you have made the decision not to progress as fast in a given period of time as other guilds or individuals. This isn't a character or value judgement; it's MATH. 1+1=2. Either you're adding up enough 1's to = victory, or you aren't.
Again, there's nothing "wrong" or "right" about these decisions, but raid encounters aren't scripted according to principles. Those bosses will only ever fall down because your raid's math is right. If you are cool with that, and don't mind slower progression, carry on. If it bothers you, dual spec into something better and use it when needed.
3. The r-tard hunter who picked a fight was doing it for one of two reasons: the lulz (because he felt he could control the guild through better performance) or because he wanted out anyway and you simply gave him an opportunity.
In both cases, the correct action is to immediately boot the offender from your guild and ignore them.
Why such a harsh response? Because the moment a guild leader allows unwarranted behavior by ANY member, they erode their own authority. If you set rules down, be prepared to enforce them. Even against people making good contributions to the raid. Even against your best friends in RL who you've known since grade school. The moment you don't take responsibility for the guild's welfare, you loose your authority over it.
It doesn't matter what your progression is like, or who can make it better. Someone who can't take some friendly ribbing is waaaay too emo to last through repeated wipes at end-game bosses. That huntard was going to quit eventually, due to milking the guild as much as it was allowing him to, or due to getting sand in a tender spot and ragequitting. Why put up with drama later when you can end it now?
Dunnik Jan 31st 2011 2:59PM
I noticed Sticks said he was among the last people standing at the wipe call. Presumably among the early dead were those with "proper" raid specs.
Now ask yourself, as an RL, which would you rather have, a good player on a bad spec or a bad player on a good spec? After all, you can't DPS if you're dead...
Noyou Jan 31st 2011 5:53PM
Excellent point. And I don't think this can be over stated enough- first rule of DPS is not to be on top of the meter but not to pull Aggro away from the tank. When I am DPSing I always keep an eye on my healers and make sure to use CC to protect them. If I am on my hunter I make sure to put a trap by them. If I have to cut out dps for a couple seconds to pull someone off them so be it. Most DPS don't even know they have threat reducing talents and spells. Which is sad. Play the spec you like, find good people, and have the most fun you can possibly have. It's a game :)
Gosten Mar 12th 2011 6:01PM
I think all parties were correct in this. The new hunter was right for leaving and the GM was correct in not kicking a longtime member. It's just drama. Maybe have Robin and Lisa take a crack at this too in their column.
If the OP was just joking around by calling the hunter a bastard for winning an upgrade, he should still keep his sense of humor when he gets called a @#$%ing @#%sucker in return. After all, we're joking, right?
The new hunter was stated to be skilled dps, and those people can usually jump guilds without too much issue. Why stay in a guild that has drama over loot when you could go to a guild that expects to get boss kills and loot. Hardcore raiders often have trouble sticking with casual guilds that have nice people, but always keep a number of carries on their raiding team.