Skip to Content
1-31-2011 @ 9:10AM
The other guys were better players than you, outgeared you and by the sounds of you outskilled you, not to mention you were playing a really gimped spec.However they are stupid for getting into an argument over some guild chat banter, at the end of they day, they won the epix loot, that should be the painkiller over any abuse they got.At the end of the day, dont feel guilty, if it IS really your fault im sure you would of been told by now in one way or another, just get on with playing cataclysm and chilllax.
1-31-2011 @ 9:29AM
Why do you say that the other guys were better players? Does the fact that they had better gear automatically mean they had more skill? I will agree with you about the drama though. Sounds like a simple misunderstanding that got out of hand for no good reason. I wouldn't give it another thought.
1-31-2011 @ 9:46AM
The fact that they knew enough about their class to use a spec that doesn;t gimp the raid means that yes, they were better players, and yes they deserved the loot more.
1-31-2011 @ 9:48AM
And nothing I can see in the post suggest the BM hunter meant anything to be taken as abuse. As hunter are uncommonly handsome (esp the dwarfs) and well able to banter we can deduce that this was meant as some gentle ribbing (only occasionaly done with a riflebutt).The MM hunter being an alt doesnt count in the the above statement.TL:DR: Mr MM Hunter: Dont take everything so fecking serious!
1-31-2011 @ 10:02AM
"Due to my insistence in playing a Beast Mastery hunter, and my abysmal luck in getting new gear drops, I was not among our best DPSers"Sounds like he knowingly was playing a spec that wasn't the most beneficial to the guild, rather than "being a bad player" and doing so unknowingly. Heaven forbid someone just plays a spec they enjoy most.
1-31-2011 @ 10:21AM
'Sounds like he knowingly was playing a spec that wasn't the most beneficial to the guild, rather than "being a bad player" and doing so unknowingly. 'That;s even worse.
1-31-2011 @ 10:44AM
Sticks was in the top 10 most of the time in ICC 25, and he downed Cata dungeon bosses after the rest of us have fallen when we leveled. I have seen him compete for top DPS with high DPS classes/specs in normals. He has been patient with me as I took up healing this expansion, when I think the other two would have been less so. He is a skilled player and a better friend. He loves Beast Master, and he will never change specs. He always finds a way to make it raid viable.
1-31-2011 @ 11:32AM
It's quite a leap to conclude that just because he was playing BM that he was playing a spec not of the greatest benefit to the guild. There are many dimensions to the question of what most benefits a guild. Raw DPS numbers are but one single dimension and not necessarily the most important one. Yes, I know the primary job of damage dealers is to inflict damage, but it's not their only job. Concentrating on raw DPS is a terribly simplistic way of looking at what a character who neither tanks nor heals brings to the table. It's awful that we've dumbed down an entire broad category of characters to this single number.When it comes to raid progression, the ultimate measure is not who did how much damage, but who contributed in any way to downing a boss. For example, in the case of a BM hunter, did he ever use his pet handling skills to pull a mob off a healer or a lightly armored fellow damage-dealer, making it easier for them to do their jobs? If so, he contributed in a way that will never be measured on any DPS meter, at least not to give him credit. You could call out an endless number of ways in which players contribute to downing a boss that are not easily measured by any addon looking at the combat log.We need to get away from this simplistic min-maxing way of thinking, the notion that there is only one right spec for any given class just because some theoretical number says so. Your class, spec, gear, gems, enchants, all of those things serve to determine only your potential for succeeding in an encounter. How well you actually do has more to do with your skill as a player, things like how well you really know your class, your situational awareness, ability to adapt and improvise, and how willing you are to be a true TEAM player rather than a greedy glory hound. I've seen many a player with supposedly inferior specs and/or gear outplay those that some numbers say ought to be better.Let's also not overlook the numerous intangible ways a player benefits a guild. Some people are more fun to raid with, even if you wipe, than others are even when you win. These people can help attract and retain other players merely by their presence in a guild. They can also motivate people to show up, on time and prepared. They may be generous with their professions, bringing benefit to other players with gear, consumables, and buffs. They may help others prepare for raid night with valuable information. I'll take a player like this over an asshat with higher DPS any day.
1-31-2011 @ 11:34AM
Playing BM doesn't by default make them worse players. In wrath -- we had a BM hunter -- for the specific use of one of their pets during a specific fight -- because it buffed the melee. We were a min/max guild. They weren't as high in dps as some of the other hunters were -- but they weren't -that- far behind them either. And the buff they brought buffed the damage of our other raid members. And since recount doesn't have a feature to tell you exactly how much extra dps one buff gives it's difficult to measure the exact amount -- but it was significant. Don't assume just because Elitest Jerks tell you "use this spec" that in every circumstance the cookie-cutter-theory-crafted spec is ALWAYS the best.There are exceptions. And a good player knows the difference between theory, their gear -- their latency -- and their raid composition.
1-31-2011 @ 12:01PM
Rajah, I wish you could drive your point home to every raid leader. That's the best way I've seen anyone explain raid contribution.
1-31-2011 @ 12:10PM
I doubt one bad spec gimps the raid where dps is concerned Emophia. Especially if they 25 persons. Maybe a bunch of bad specs yes, but one unlikely. And as clearly stated by the concerend writer, his/her issue was gear...and having bad luck rolling on the good stuff. Perhaps that guild needs to work on prioritizing loot rolls better. Which brings me to another point...if the guild is not progressing as they are intended, then it's likely something the guild is doing wrong and not individual players.
1-31-2011 @ 2:15PM
"We need to get away from this simplistic min-maxing way of thinking"There is a reason we don't get away from this. It's when you wipe to progression raids with very small amounts of health left - say, anything under 5%. If you've ever had a 5% or lower wipe, and were not able to down that boss in that raid lockout, you quickly will find yourself looking at the people who are lagging in DPS. Once you calculate that a small 3% increase in the lowest 5 players will get you over the hump (assuming no one died to anything stupid), it's really hard to sympathize with them if they play a suboptimal spec, which in many cases can give way more than that small amount.Are they contributing to the kill? Sure, anyone who does any heals or damage contributes. But on progression content, if they are not maximizing their potential, they could be holding you back and causing you to wipe.This goes to the whole argument of your 15 bucks a month is outweighed by the 360 bucks a month of the other 24 people in your raid.
1-31-2011 @ 2:17PM
@Rajah - excellently stated. As a boomkin, I frequently have to sacrifice those raw DPS numbers to decurse, depoison, emergency heal, battle rez, CC, innervate, or any other number of small things to assist in the overall success of the raid. Hope you don't mind, but I might cut n' paste that onto our guild site since it seems to really espouse what we value as a guild. And for the naysayers of that, we're #3 Alliance guild on our server for progression (#5 overall), AND we don't all secretly loathe each other. We used to be #2 faction, #3 overall but we had a falling out with those same kinds of players who all went on to found their own simmering pot of distrust and hate. And truth be told, nobody misses 'em. (and those players? not even top 10)
1-31-2011 @ 2:18PM
I would like to point out, though, that the emailer’s tone and word choice does seem to indicate that he was knowingly choosing a sub-optimal spec out of personal preference. He wasn’t BM because of some hard-to-identify reason beneficial to the guild. That being said, however, he also notes that his guild is purposefully casual. As such, choosing a sub-optimal spec is not the crime it might seem to be on-lookers.It’s difficult to weigh in on what was the “better” choice when we’re a) not intimately familiar with the goings on in the guild and b) not 100% sure what would have happened had the alternative path been chosen. Sure, the guild stalled on Sindragosa after those guys left, but that’s not an innately bad result. Depending on the attitude of the other guild members, losing those two raiders might have been better for the overall health of the guild.
1-31-2011 @ 3:30PM
He also stated that his DPS was competitive. If he's at around the average dps in a sub optimal spec and inferior gear, it doesn't sound like he's the part of the raid that needs to improve. If you're not going bleeding edge content, the small percent of increased damage you get from optimal specs isn't terribly important. Granted, wrath-era BM was a particularly low damage spec, but not so low it's going to cripple any groups.
1-31-2011 @ 4:07PM
It's not a matter of bringing a spec that brings more utility at the cost of DPS. It's the fact that BM was a quantifiably inferior spec in 3.3, with no unique utility. It's like a frost mage arguing that his reduced DPS was made up for by his bringing replenishment, while the ret pally and shadow priest already in the raid scratch their heads.A guild that gives carte blanche for it's raiders to play the spec that's "fun" for them, rather than the spec that the raid needs, is simply not going to progress as fast as guilds that are willing to adapt to change as it comes. And it's not just with regards to maximizing DPS, it's also enforcing standards of utility. If you didn't force your ret paladins to spec into Aura Mastery, odds are, you didn't kill HLK25. Ditto with prot warriors who refuse to take safeguard, prot pallies who skipped divine sacrifice. Likewise with Warriors who insisted on raiding as arms, despite having a feral druid in the raid, or warlocks who sacrificed massive raid buffs because they didn't want to go Demo. Guilds that entertained these people's fits of individuality did so by sacrificing the progression of the raid as a collective. It's not to say that they made the wrong choice, it's simply the choice they made. You couldn't be leading progression on a beastmastery hunter. You could have one or the other. I tell my hunters this: "I didn't recruit a marksmanship hunter, I expect you to be the best hunter possible, regardless of what spec you have to be to do achieve that." I tell the same thing to every other pure DPS we use, they are expected to be proficient in all specs of their class, and to use the spec that the raid needs in that particular situation. Some of them have to change specs between fights, say when going from ODS to Maloriak. That's what it takes to get those kills early on.
1-31-2011 @ 4:01PM
In ICC, I ran with a bm hunter who out dpsed a similarly geared mm, proving that skill is very important to dps.
1-31-2011 @ 5:07PM
I can understand growing attached to one spec: I loved MM back in wrath. Learning a new spec was daunting. That said, I shamelessly switched to SV, the spec that is currently doing the most overall DPS, with the understanding that I'm in raids to bring the highest numbers possible. (And in retrospect, picking up the new rotation was actually very simple) Exceptional players who go above and beyond to find a way to make their spec viable are by definition the exception. The rest of us spend a lot of time on sites like this, reading up on what other people have done and tried so that we can make an informed decision on how to spec, what gear to take, and what tactics to try. You can decide whether to take these tips or go your own way, but the multitudes of hunters who spec for raw fire-power are not bad because they follow the norm. Maximizing DPS is part of being a team player, especially for hunters who can't contribute a battle rez, cleanse, or mana regen ability. That's not to say we should refuse to trap, tranq shot, misdirect, or kite when we can, though; all of these skills are part of what makes playing a hunter so fun!
2-03-2011 @ 11:49AM
I am not sure why some of these posts were down voted. It's true that when you come close to downing progression bosses the thought if a few percentage points of hp can be attributed to players not properly prepared for progression raid. That being said the poster did state his guild was one of the better casual guilds so it should be expected not to be slamming through cataclysm content. If you were unable to down sindragosa in wrath then there are numerous encounters that will be nigh impossible for a casual guild. If you're disappointed about your current progress in cataclysm you may have to join a true raiding guild however you will find that playing your favorite sub par spec in the eyes of those elitist mathematicians wont hold up in such a serious atmosphere.
First time? A confirmation email will be sent to you after submitting.
Members enter your username and password.
Enter your AOL or AIM screenname and password.
Please keep your comments relevant to this blog entry. Email addresses are never displayed, but they are required to confirm your comments.
When you enter your name and email address, you'll be sent a link to confirm your comment, and a password. To leave another comment, just use that password.
To create a live link, simply type the URL (including http://) or email address and we will make it a live link for you. You can put up to 3 URLs in your comments. Line breaks and paragraphs are automatically converted — no need to use <p> or <br /> tags.