Breakfast Topic: Achievements that should have been
by Aiden James Kosciesza 
Feb 1st 2011 at 8:00AM
The advent of achievements changed the game of WoW in many ways. Not only do they provide recognition for time and devotion put into the game, such as the Loremaster or Justicar achievements, but in Wrath content and beyond, they can actually change players' approaches to game encounters. Consider the meta achievements for the Wrath raids. Who would have actually tried downing Sartharion with all three drakes alive if there had been no reward? Achievements prompt us to try more daring or difficult strategies for boss fights, do crazy or counterintuitive things in PvP combat, or run headlong into live mine fields. They also allow Blizzard developers to work in hard modes for certain bosses, giving them a scaling difficulty that provides accessibility for casual players and challenge for the hardcore.
So what about the vanilla and BC encounters? With a few notable exceptions, classic and Burning Crusade content has not received the achievement treatment.
If achievements had been part of WoW from the beginning, what would they have been like? Which crazy boss strategies deserved their own achievements in classic and BC encounters? Have you ever done something awesome in older content and thought, "Man, that should have been an achievement"?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics, Guest Posts
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 9)
Theresa Feb 1st 2011 8:04AM
ZA bear run.
Blunderwear Feb 1st 2011 8:56AM
It's my understanding that people hitting the "reply" button should at least briefly mention the OP's topic.
Josin Feb 1st 2011 8:58AM
The achievements mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. What do you care HOW someone does them, so long as they aren't exploiting the game to do so?
Your complaint would penalize long-time players by adding needless restrictions, or the playerbase as a whole, by removing achievements that are just there for fun.
In the immortal words of the Joker: Why so serious?!
Kay Feb 1st 2011 9:05AM
I did Loremaster (at 80, before the changes to make it easier, uphill both ways, get off my lawn etc) for the stories. I am the guild lore know-it-all so i loved the title and wear it instead of my raiding titles.
I enjoyed it, it was relaxing. I helped lowbies whenever I could, and 99% of the time they were happy to have a burly protector to help them out. It certainly wasn't easy, trawling for obscure quests in the middle of nowhere, sometimes searching for hours to find a handful of stragglers. The challenge(while admittedly light) was one of research and thoroughness.
It also took me about 3 months, so i would definitely consider it an achievement.
Chokaa Feb 1st 2011 9:09AM
@Stella
While your omment has nothign to do with a ZA Bear Run, I think that your idea has no merit. It actually would punish players who were new to the game who wanted a Loremaster title. Let's look at it logically. I am a new Forsaken. In order to get loremaster, I need to do the quests in Tirisfal Glades/Silverpine and Durotar/Barrens and Mulgore and Eversong Woods/Ghostlands and Azshara before hitting level 20, in your example. That's not even possible, even with grey quests. You are also destroying the chances for a Death Knight to be a loremaster because you've excluded more than 1/2 of Azeroth from counting.
Chucks Feb 1st 2011 9:09AM
Sounds like somebody got ninja'd.
Cyrus Feb 1st 2011 9:15AM
"abusing the game mechanics (in a legitimate way)"
One of us is misunderstanding the meaning of the word "abusing" and/or the word "legitimate", and I don't think it's me. I mean, if it's legitimate, then how is it abuse?
"Besides which, what achievement is there for a level 85 nuking their way through a level 5 questing zone? How is that an achievement?"
No, it's not "hard". Of course it's not. It wasn't hard at level 5 either. Level 5 quests are "kill three Grasshammer Kobolds. Yeah, those hairy guys right in front of you. Don't worry, they just melee, and run in fear when you get them down to 25 percent." And when you hand it in, you see "Congratulations! You've reached level 6!"
By your standard, people would ONLY get achievements for hard modes in instances. But achievements represent lots of different things besides skill in combat. The collection achievements - tabards, mounts, pets, etc. - aren't "hard", meaning that they don't require good gear or precise rotations or hair-trigger reflexes, but they require lots and lots of time and a combination of planning and luck. Well, same for the vast majority of achievements, including Loremaster-related achievements (minus the luck part, I guess) and exploration achievements and dungeons below your current level.
It's fine if you don't like the current achievement system, but your argument against it doesn't make any sense.
Mortenebra Feb 1st 2011 9:22AM
Not everyone who's 85 are only going back for Loremaster because they want to grief people or they couldn't be bothered with levelling via questing. When The Shattering arrived in 4.0.3a and all of the new low level quests/zones came out, I was really excited! Here I was with my dedicated main, level 80 and with very little to do but twiddle my thumbs and, frankly, do achievements till the actual launch of Cataclysm. I'm also quite the lore junkie. Me, personally, I often miss out on things when I'm levelling in a zone because I'm hellbent on survival and, of course, levelling. I worry about bag space, or I worry about messing up a quest mechanic that might kill me because I've never done it before.
As an 80 (or now 85), however, I don't have to worry about that. I get to focus on the quests themselves, read the text, savor the atmosphere and laugh about little things. All I could keep talking about was how things had changed in this place for the better, how I missed some things in other places, how nice things must be for lowbies now with systems that jet them from one quest hub in a zone to another, etc. If I screwed up and did Booty Bay before N. STV on my 80, it's no big deal... I just patiently wait till the problem is fixed and it's no sweat off my back.
I'm not there to wreak havoc on lowbies. I'm there to experience things for myself, on my main, things that weren't there when I was levelling that character. And as my main, I like to get the majority of my achievements on that character.
Of course, if I see someone of lower level in the same area, it doesn't hurt to ask them, "Hey, do you need this stuff for a quest?" Some people say, "Nah, go for it," and others say, "Yeah, do you mind if I get my kills first?" It's seriously no big deal. The same goes for rep farming, like when I went back to Felwood and Winterspring for the Timbermaw. A little courtesy goes a long way, but it has to be on both sides. And, if anything, I'd like to help if I can!
There's also the matter to consider that, with heirlooms and guild perks, a person might be outlevelling an area far before they're even close to done with it. I think someone asked about it on The Queue yesterday. It's not a bad thing, by any means, but back in Vanilla and even BC, you knew you were almost done with an area by the time you hit a certain level. That rule doesn't apply anymore. With archaeology and how infuriating it can be, you'll see higher level characters in low level areas more often. So what if they decide to do some quests while they're in the neighborhood? Or grind some rep? Even if it's none of the above, it's honestly no one's fault that the artifact is right underneath the feet of Chief Oogla-Boogla Gobbledeegook and the person happened to survey it right before a lowbie needed it.
Long story short: Yes, there are a-holes out there. But not everyone out there is out to make your WoW life a virtual Hell. A rule of "high level in a low level area" is not enough to automatically brand them as griefers.
Noyou Feb 1st 2011 9:32AM
@Stella
Sad puppy. You just don't get it do ya? I do a lot of grinding but there's no way I could ever do loremaster. I have all the respect for anyone who does get it. I don't care if they get it at lvl 80, 85, 100. That is one achievement you EARN. To say anything different is just plain denial.
Krytture Feb 1st 2011 9:41AM
People look at achievements like they mean something. I use them as a personal log. Yeah, its no grand Azeroth shattering achievement that you did the level 20 quests as an 85. But, it is a nice way to TRACK that you did it.
Don't flex your e-peen with your achievement number. There is no point, its just a grind. If anything it shows that you know how to follow a guide to get quick easy points. Cause thats what 90% of the achievements are.
Seriously, its just a check list for personal use.
Amaxe Feb 1st 2011 11:06AM
Well, taking a rogue 1-60, I can understand the frustration of seeing level 85s running through a zone doing the quests you are doing. Seeing a level 85 AOEing an area you need to kill mobs in is irritating, and (being on a pvp server), it means there are a lot of 85 Horde in the area who may decide to use you as a target because they are immature (or 85 Alliance if you roll Horde).
However, I realize a level 85 is in an area temporarily before moving on, and is usually there for a specific purpose -- which they have a right to fulfill. Some don't have any jerkish intent. Unfortunately, others can be selfish and not worry about how they affect others.
With that being said, It might be good for a level 85 to consider their effect on a zone however, and try to be a good neighbor while passing through, and not AOE an area where you see lower level characters. Perhaps even offer to team up with a low level character heading to a named mob you have a quest to kill.
Things like this would probably reduce the bitterness and resentment.
And for those players who are jerks and think it is funny to AOE an area to frustrate low level toons... I hope you get ganked and camped ;-)
Neirin Feb 1st 2011 12:27PM
I did Loremaster because it was a good excuse to learn more about the lore of the game and experience more obscure content. Now that the shattering has happened and zones actually have cohesive story lines through questing I'd say there's even more reason to do Loremaster than ever. The points are nice, but if you're only doing it for the points you're missing out imo.
For the OP's topic: isn't having the bear a feat of strength? So technically the bear run did get an achievement, it just can't be achieved any more.
Mortenebra Feb 1st 2011 12:42PM
@Theresa: I'm sorry for the deluge of spam to your inbox with replies to your post that have nothing to do with what you said.
@Stella: I understand that you're targeting a specific group of people but you begin to enter the realm of "It's their $15 per month." And it's true. What if a person likes running dungeons? What if they prefer to PvP? Who are you or I or anyone else to say that they're a good or bad person? Or a good or bad player?
To me, as someone whose main is a hunter, tanking mystifies me. I think it would be easier for me to learn how to tank early on when there's only a couple of buttons I need to worry about, rather than a slew of rotations and abilities coming at me like a howler monkey. And practice makes perfect. I'm not going to learn successful tanking just tanking one instance. So I go again. And again. And again.
Even in the brave new world (of warcraft) where multiple servers can be joined together for pug dungeons, my server still tars and feathers proven ninjas. My guild fosters the social aspects of the game rather than just focusing on progression and loot. Because we're here to have fun in a game. Because life is too short to bring strife and drama into a recreational activity. We joke about how we used to slog through forty whole levels before getting a piddly little mount that the Tortoise puts to shame-- and we LIKED it! Goshdurned kids got it so easy these days, right?
I don't know you, your guild or even your server. But believe me when I tell you that the people you're referring to are actually the exceptions to the rule, not the ruling majority. "Most people" are actually pretty nice, not the lazy, self-absorbed, entitled children you paint them to be. I apologize if I'm wrong in my interpretation of your posts.
Again-- perhaps you bumped into a lot of bad people in pugs (which is why I stay away from pugging if I can; and if I do pug, I rather go with people on my server so that if I do meet someone nice, I don't have too much trouble finding them!) or recent recruits to your guild were spoiled little prats who didn't know what they were doing or saying. Sometimes people do suck.
And if the game can be a solo-player endeavor, as you claim it to be, then they have to wait for the next expansion for things. In my experience, the people I'm not terribly fond of are usually the ones screaming, "GOGOGO!", the people who can't keep their pants on and have to have stuff NOW. But even so, those same people aren't going to be soloing Deathwing when his content patch hits. They're going to have to learn to play nice with everyone else in order to get what they want.
@Neiren: It IS a feat of strength since it is no longer available! It's like being exalted with The Zandalari now in Cata or doing/getting something super rare. The warbear achievement is here on Wowhead: http://www.wowhead.com/achievement=430
But I think the OP may have been saying that getting the bear and being able to do ZA in that set amount of time "back in the day" should have been an achievement had achievements been implemented then :)
Draelan Feb 1st 2011 2:28PM
@ Stella
"I did Loremaster three times on three different chars. Each time, I raced around the old 1-60 world at level 80, nuking everything in sight, taking mobs away from people who were levelling, annoying them, slowing them down and causing them grief by pulling mobs into them (consequence of being 80, wasn't intentional but hard to avoid)."
So, wait.... Your whole argument is that because YOU acted like an inconsiderate asshole when working on Loremaster, MOST people must be assholes when working on Loremaster?
Xantenise Feb 1st 2011 6:45PM
I wouldn't go so far as to call for Loremaster's removal, but nothing is more annoying than levelling a low level character and having a near- or max-level char come and slaughter all your mobs, having to wait for them, then having them respawn all at the same time and ganking you.
After the tenth or so time, that got old.
Sorphius Feb 1st 2011 8:07AM
Killing Garr in MC with all his adds up.
Elwoods Feb 1st 2011 8:43AM
off-topic: Love you icon there Sorphius!
Sorphius Feb 1st 2011 9:03AM
I agree with you entirely, Stella. Achievements *should* be relevant. Much as professional athletes can't compete in high school sports, you should be able to run around at lvl 85 picking up achievements you missed out on years ago.
That having been said, if there had been achievements in the game during vanilla I think killing Garr with all his adds up would have been a good one. Maybe also one for killing Ragnaros before his sons came out to play.
Mortenebra Feb 1st 2011 9:50AM
/agree with Elwoods!
But on-topic: I agree things should be relevant (like the World Event achieves-- gotta do them while the event's going on) BUT going back to do, for example, MC past its relevance is an achievement in a way, too. Some people couldn't be bothered with going back and doing old raids because they're just that: OLD. No relevant loot, nothing special, nada zip zilch, I wave my hand at Magmadar and /yawn, he falls down, etc.
For some people, the incentive of getting an achievement is enough. A lot of people, like me, have never seen the content and *want* to just experience it, even if it's a watered down version of it. I did it at 70 with some friends: It was still challenging to a degree and, for people who were now used to flying around Outland, we had to find the nearest flight path and then ride there by ground. Plus, there's attunement! So what was originally one run and maybe two hours of romping through fiery doom is now two runs and three or more hours of romping through rocky fiery doom plus fiery doom.
If anything, the achievement that pops up at the end of the run, regardless of level, is a hat tip to those who have the dedication to go there past its relevance, whatever their reasons (or lack of reasons) might be for doing it. As much as I would like to have been there at the opening of Ahn'Qiraj or the Dark Portal on BC launch, I wasn't and I don't have that achievement. I can say hi to AQ and Blasted Lands as much as I like and still won't get it. An idea that I'm sure has been brought up many times by many people is to have a tiered system for achievements like this-- e.g. an achievement for doing it at level 60 (or below 70) with an appropriate group of peers as opposed to an achievement for just doing the instance at a higher level.
gboyd Feb 1st 2011 9:55AM
@Stella,
I see where you're coming from and I partially agree with you. Doing something like killing Garr at 85 while his adds are up is laughably easy at 85. It's almost more challenging to get people together to do the old world raids than the raid itself.
Regarding Loremaster and doing old zones at a high level I do disagree. See, doing older quests at level 85, while no doubt faster than had you done them at the correct level, is still a massive investment in time and energy. It's not something you can sit down and knock out in a day. You still have to content with RNG, Other people questing, terrible spawn rates, full bags, etc... On top of that, you're taking away time you'd normally have spent working on your end game content. The achievement has a different meaning at high levels. It's a massive time sink that not very many people are willing to invest in. I believe it is completely worthy of being an achievement no matter when you decide to do it.