Ignite munching on its way out, one way or another
by Michael Sacco 
Feb 23rd 2011 at 5:00PM
Community Manager Bashiok says that the likely route will be simply making it so Ignite can't proc off periodic damage, which in theory shouldn't be a DPS loss at all, since Ignite will actually work at that point. If it does turn out to be a DPS loss, he says they can always adjust fire DPS in other ways.
So when can you expect the change? A future patch, apparently, since Bashiok says that this is the kind of thing they just don't like to hotfix, due to the unintended consequences it might have. At least it's in the pipeline.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
razion Feb 23rd 2011 5:12PM
I'm sorry but... I think I got... something in my eye. Must be a fly or something...
Pandamon Feb 23rd 2011 5:16PM
OMG YES
Pyromelter Feb 23rd 2011 5:16PM
That's a band-aid, unfortunately, and as crit levels get higher, will affect mages even more.
I proved on Monday's version of Scattered Shots that the same munching happens with Marksmanship Hunters' Piercing Shots talent.
Let's hope blizzard finds a better technical solution for all involved classes.
Sterb Feb 23rd 2011 5:28PM
The fix will have to be an algorithm that does calculations based on when the spell lands. Put more simply, Ignite damage behavior will have to be calculated at the time Ignite is applied. It's really the proactive calculation that's the problem here.
Pyromelter Feb 23rd 2011 5:54PM
Sterb, the bigger problem (as I understand it) is that when you get a crit, the server checks your character to make sure you have the talent. That process takes somewhere in the .5 to 1.5 second range from the time the crit is applied to the time the ignite is refreshed. And there is definitely an internet cooldown where ignite damage cannot be added once the ignite timer is over 4 seconds.
One of the ways blizz could fix this is by allowing ignite to tick 4 times over 4 seconds (ala piercing shots divided by 2) as opposed to having ignite tick every 1 second. That would at least remove that internal cooldown "over 4 second" aspect of the munching.
Sterb Feb 23rd 2011 6:49PM
Even with that delay, couldn't it still check to see what the outstanding Ignite damage is and recalculate the applied dot?
From the server's perspective:
1. Spell cast, returns crit or not and amount.
2. Spell lands. If crit, then 3 (else stop).
3. Remaining_Ignite = Remaining_Ignite + Damage * 0.4
4. Reset timer.
mark Feb 23rd 2011 7:24PM
"Community Manager Bashiok says that the likely route will be simply making it so Ignite can't proc off periodic damage, which in theory shouldn't be a DPS loss at all, since Ignite will actually work at that point."
stops dot crits going with your FB crit: yes
stops fb/pyro twincrits (the one you really want to work) NO
Pyromelter Feb 23rd 2011 7:57PM
"Even with that delay, couldn't it still check to see what the outstanding Ignite damage is and recalculate the applied dot?"
I would hope that they will be able to code that in, but since I'm just a guy who likes to blow stuff up and do math (and can't program worth a lick), I'm just not sure.
Let me see if I can work through your program suggestion though:
"From the server's perspective:
1. Spell cast, returns crit or not and amount.
2. Spell lands. If crit, then 3 (else stop).
3. Remaining_Ignite = Remaining_Ignite + Damage * 0.4
4. Reset timer."
Okay, well here's the problem as I see it currently with how it's coded. Inbetween 2 and 3, you have:
2. Spell lands. If crit, then 2.5 (else stop).
2.5 Check_talent_ignite. If yes, then 3
There is an estimated .5 second server lag on the system checking for the ignite talent on every crit. If another crit struck while it was working through that list (with it's inherent lag), it wouldn't "see" that crit. Kind of like in wrestling when someone distracts the ref, and the wrestler behind him makes an illegal move to the opponent, he didn't "see" it, so it didn't happen.
pyrostorm1 Feb 23rd 2011 10:32PM
wait... so the server is checking for the talent for EVERY cast?
if i understand it correctly that means
spell cast + spell crit, send info to server
reads info from player, asks if player has ignite
yeah i got 3 points ignite, sends response to server
comes back, here is your ignite yo
why not
spell cast + crit + i have 3 points ignite and i calculated the dmg for you
yo dawg /fistbump
(jokes aside) is that how it works?
Boobah Feb 24th 2011 3:45AM
"I proved on Monday's version of Scattered Shots that the same munching happens with Marksmanship Hunters' Piercing Shots talent."
It's almost certainly true that the same thing also occurs with a Warrior's Deep Wounds. Although with that version, you at least don't have the little crit eating big crits, since the damage of Deep Wounds is dependent directly on your main hand weapon damage, rather than the ability that procced it.
Sterb Feb 24th 2011 9:32AM
I guess the delay itself is perplexing to me because even if it took that long to determine if you have Ignite (that's horridly slow to check a bit, but I'm not privy to whether they're doing poorly designed database lookups), the server still needs to be able to calculate whether you're critting with spells in the meantime (the server can't just be out to lunch for that long). And if it were, that means that when it finally does calculate that crit, it should have been finished and ready to recalculate the new Ignite.
I believe that the fix for this isn't trivial on Blizzard's part (meaning it's not tweak a value or trigger), but I still think the correct behavior is a simple concept.
Scooter Feb 24th 2011 10:17AM
Gentlemen settle down please! The answer is quite simple! Instead of a pure damage calculation we simply need to record what spell caused the ignite to proc and be sure there is at least 1 tick left on the debuff!
Here is the order in which they overwrite each other based on average damage.
Pyroblast > Fireball > Scorch > Living Bomb > Flame Orb > ETC
Each level can overwrite itself of course, but before anyone says this is a problem let me ask you how are you critting so much against something and it's not dead?
Discuss!
Tsoi Feb 23rd 2011 5:17PM
"Future patch" seems to be a far time away when they've made a note of ignite munching a while ago, and with the massive amount (and speed) of hotfixes they've made, give us the 1-2 days (or weeks in some cases) of complete OP domination of one class.
nonentity Feb 23rd 2011 5:24PM
"If it does turn out to be a DPS loss"
Sorry, but Ignite Munching IS a potential DPS loss right now. If it worked correctly we'd have higher DPS.
So we can expect our DPS to not change at all, or even go down a bit with this change? Awesome...
Don't wanna damn it too soon but not really enthusiastic about this change, but well, let's wait and see...
Also, kind of... shocking? to see them admit that they created a spell they themselves can't get to work correctly.
cloudhopper013 Feb 23rd 2011 6:40PM
I think they were merely referring to the possibility that for some of us with lower crit percentages or just all of use overall may be experiencing much of our dps from the "ever-lasting ignite" that we often have that is fueled by DoT crits (as munchy as they are).
I can think of several times when leveling and running heroics where I had one of those days where no matter how hard you press the button, your fireballs JUST. WON'T. CRIT. It's those days that DoT crits at the very least give me something to combust. (No, seriously, I once went an entire boss fight without a single hot streak. It was painful. And I had good gear at the time, too.)
And they admit all the time that they make mistakes, specific and in general. O_o Dunno what's with this new anti-blizz stance that so many people have taken on.
nonentity Feb 23rd 2011 7:02PM
I don't have an anti-Blizz stance, I'm neither a fanboy nor a hater, they do some good things, some bad etc.
I just think it's rather rare they more or less admit defeat when it comes to making spells work. They created this thing, they designed it and their creation proved too troublesome for even them. Just kind of weird, that was my point.
I know your pain of no hot streaks. Don't think I ever went a whole fight without them but yeah, it can be painful at times. I like fire but it kinda sucks that your DPS is, even when executed flawlessly, dictated to a huge degree by the cursed RNG. With the same performance you may be #1 or #8. That's the main reason I went Arcane when it was equally viable in Wotlk.
I especially hate the timing of the Hot Streaks, although that may be a litte paranoia ;). this happens to me A LOT... I have my Bomb up, I have an Ignite up, and keep waiting and waiting and waiting for a Hot Streak to have Pyroblast on the mob, to cast Combustion. Finally I resign and use Combustion without Pyroblast... the cast after that proccs Pyroblast! -.-
Pyromelter Feb 23rd 2011 7:47PM
I'd be willing to bet anything that removing dots from ignite will, on average, increase DPS. If a pyroblast dot or living bomb dot crits and munches a pyroblast or fireball nuke at 30k+, that is a massive amount of ignite damage lost, especially if you have a good amount of mastery added.
I agree with Nioki below, I hope blizz finds a more elegant solution.
Beli Feb 24th 2011 9:43AM
This only solves half the problem... sure, if you get a 10k ignite off a fireball, that won't be erased by a 2k ignite half a second later from your Living Bomb, That's great, and definitely a DPS increase. However... what about that 30k ignite you get off a pyroblast? Is that going to be erased by the next fireball ignite?
A better solution (which may end up being too powerful) would be to allow your ignites to refresh current ones. The server simply compares the current ignite to the new one it wants to apply. If the new one is higher, apply it. If it's lower, refresh the timer on the old one. This would allow you to get that 30k pyroblast ignite and keep it up the entire fight. prevents munching entirely.
nonentity Feb 24th 2011 9:54AM
Guess Blizzard thought of all such solutions already and dismissed them as not doable but whatever... ^^
Lower the dmg (%) of Ignite but let each spell procc it's own Ignite-DoT. A Fireball-Ignite can refresh/overwrite a Fireball-Ignite, but not a Pyroblast-Ignite for example.
Jockofocker Feb 23rd 2011 5:25PM
I eat farts