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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsDrama Mamas: The case of the underage scammer
by Robin Torres 
Feb 25th 2011 at 9:00AM
It's always more interesting when Lisa and I disagree. This week is very interesting. Let's get right to it.
So... Here's my story. The first part is probably pretty typical, but it's what I did in response that I'm conflicted about. I feel I could use the advice of someone who understands WoW.
I saw somebody advertising in trade that he was selling the ruby shades for 500g. I'm not sure why I thought even for a second that it might be real; even on a low-pop server, that's two orders of magnitude low. But I did, so I arranged to meet with the "seller". He expressed some hesitation about the 500g price and we negotiated a higher price - none of which turned out to matter, since it quickly became clear that he did not have the shades at all. At one point he put an item with the same icon as the shades (yes, I have seen the real ones) into the trade box.
So I took an approach which I have used on various manner of ill-behaved players before, and gave him a lecture. This was not just any lecture. I am not religious, but I imagine I would have made a Sunday-school teacher proud. I lead off with, paraphrasing, "I am going to waste more of your time than you wasted of mine," and touched on such topics as why attempting to rip people off is wrong, why the money one might hypothetically get by doing so would not give one satisfaction, and why it's not okay just because you're anonymous on the internet.
This in general worked pretty well. I think possibly he was more willing to put up with it because my character's name was female, but I suppose I'll never know. I know he was frustrated with me, because he said such things as "can u stop talkin to me !!!!!!!!!!!" and "STOP TALKIN TO ME NOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!" (both verbatim quotes), and I suspect I had him in tears at one point. I finally released him after about fifteen or twenty minutes (he didn't know how to use ignore, and I had coolly mentioned that I was willing to make alts to keep bugging him if he tried that route, to discourage that line of thought), by which time his tone had changed considerably and I felt there was a fair chance he might actually understand some of my points.
So far, so good, right? When you play with the adults, you run the risk that somebody might moralize at you! After all, what I did was only words. And very polite words; I never called him anything dirty; the worst appellation I used was "troll". How can that be wrong? He deserved it. And the praise from guildies for putting a troll in his place certainly felt good.
But... Well... It came out in the course of the conversation that he was eleven years old. I believe this, as he had no reason to lie. And by the end of it he seemed to halfway think I was his friend, but I was still being rather brusque with him. I feel my tone could have been less harsh. I didn't intend to convey the message that he's inherently bad and can do no good - that will give him self-esteem problems and lead to bad stuff. I just wanted to convey that he was a good person who did a bad thing, and I think I went way overboard for that.
Could I have done some damage? I'd hate to think of this kid crying himself to sleep, or quitting the game, or something like that. I am entirely self-taught in my own school of unsolicited advice of this nature, so I've had no guidance for how much is enough.
I'm having trouble conveying exactly what the nature of my conflict here is. I guess I just want you to sign off and say it was okay, or that it wasn't - I, unlike an eleven-year-old, can handle criticism. Please let me know what you think!
Thanks,
Ironically Remorseful
Drama Mama Robin: Remorseful, you need to stop worrying about scarring this child now. So what if he did cry himself to sleep? He tried to scam you! One of the most important lessons kids need to learn is that their actions have consequences. Also, it's obvious you reached him. So no, he's not scarred. He's a better person for it. But let's say you went off on him less constructively. Let's say you were profanely insulting and made disparaging remarks about his sexual prowess or something. It's still doubtful you scarred him for life, he probably hears worse at school and it's not your fault that he's wandering around unsupervised on the internet. We've talked about Unintentional Child Encounters before. Remember when Enraged Mom got aggroed by raunchy guild chat? I bet that kid's playground cred went up when he told his school friends the naughty stories he heard.
Here are some things to remember when recovering from a UCE:
- Don't feel bad about behaving like an adult in a teen rated game, where we are all warned that online experience may vary. Many parents use video games as an electronic babysitter. They have no idea there are real people talking to their kid and think WoW is just another Super Mario Brothers. So they don't realize that their kid is encountering real people making age assumptions. If they are letting their kid (whether they know it or not) hang out with the grownups, then don't feel guilty about acting like one.
- Kids are mean to each other. You think your yelling at this kid about scamming may have hurt his feelings? Even if you're right, it doesn't hurt as much as the kid he thought was his best friend dropping him as soon as the cool kid asked him to. The kids start forming cliques and making up nasty things to say to each other as early as kindergarten, if not before. (This was a bit of a shock to me. I don't remember it being like this in the ancient days of my early education.) Some stranger he can't see yelling at him is just not going to hurt as much as someone he has to deal with 5 days a week, several hours a day.
- Children are resilient. There are so many more horrible things that can be going on in any child's life that are going to cause him emotional harm. And yet, so many children grow up to be responsible, productive adults. I mean, all of our childhoods sucked in one way or another, right? We just get over it or we seek help to get over it. Strangers yelling at them in video games is not one of those things children need to go to therapy for. It's just one of those things they will chalk up to experience and adjust their behavior accordingly.
Drama Mama Lisa: Ouch. I can't shrug off your behavior in this situation, Remorseful, and I can't condone it. I have a problem with your eye-for-an-eye behavior; that's how today's abysmally low internet behavior standards have come about in the first place. I can't advocate contributing to it.Remorseful, you relentlessly trolled this player. What he did was wrong, but you went after him maliciously with the intent to get under his skin. Sure, as you say, "what I did was only words" -- but that's what an online environment is, "only words." Those words and their effects are still quite real. You set out to cause another player frustration. You suspect he was in tears at one point. That's trolling -- and you knew it, too, as we see from your rationalizations ("He deserved it.").
Nobody deserves poor behavior in return for mistakes of his own. Patrolling the internet and teaching people lessons is not your business. If someone attempts to scam you in game, report him through in-game channels. Ignore him. Heck, make a simple, straightforward warning to other players in trade chat, if he continues to advertise what you know he doesn't have, and let him suffer the consequences. Protect yourself, yes -- but for goodness sake, don't feed the trolls.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Address the issue at hand -- the scamming -- and don't get sucked into atrocious behavior of your own.
I disagree with Robin that the possibility that young players might hear and see similar (or worse) behavior at school somehow excuses anything. I have a grade-schooler and a high-schooler of quite different temperaments. They're not angels; they both have their moments. However, both of them choose to avoid other kids who (as my daughter so gently puts it) "act sassy." And guess what? My kids are not angelic exceptions. They're real, "regular" kids -- and they don't like bad behavior. They know it hurts, and they don't tolerate it among their classmates and friends. Bottom line: Plenty of kids avoid other kids who scam, troll and get up in other people's faces in game and in real life. I can't excuse trolling this other player simply based on the fact that "he's probably heard worse" and "everyone else does it" -- because frankly, not everyone does. And plenty of kids avoid others who do.
I realize that you probably went into this situation with good intentions. Here are four questions you can ask yourself that I've found to be very helpful in helping you decide whether what you're about to say is the right way to go:
- Is it truthful? (The points you were ultimately hoping to communicate about scamming were on target, sure.)
- Is it helpful? (You sound uncertain that it was -- in fact, you are fearful that your words were actually harmful instead. And you certainly showed him that an in-your-face, manners-be-damned attitude is the way things are done -- probably not so helpful to your cause.)
- Is it kind? (I think it's fairly clear that your methods were neither polite nor compassionate.)
- What is my motivation and genuine intention here? (Why do you feel compelled to offer so much of what you call "unsolicited advice"? Whose emotions and needs are being served when you saddle up?)
Dodge the drama and become that player everyone wants in their group with a little help and insight from the Drama Mamas. Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at robin@wowinsider.com. Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 6 of 9)
lisapoisso Feb 25th 2011 11:54AM
What do you think that Remorseful's actions and manner taught this child about interacting on the internet? Do you think this child will somehow not notice that this adult feels that harrassing another player is an acceptable, effective remedy to an in-game situation? Do you think this child won't ever follow Remorseful's example and pressure other players until he, too, gets the reaction he thinks is "correct" or desirable?
Consequences: being reported, having a guild officer (if one exists) contacted (as another reader suggested), being factually called out in trade chat for the scam -- these are all effective consequences that don't bully or harrass.
Bullying and harrassment until they react in the way you want them to may indeed teach someone a lesson ... But are you sure it's the lesson you want to teach?
AudreyR Feb 25th 2011 2:11PM
Ask yourself this: A young person is acting up in some way while you're shopping for groceries. Either they are too loud, too rude, whatever. You don't see a parent or any other grown up nearby.
Do you lecture?
The kid asks you to leave them alone.
Do you ignore their request and continue to lecture?
The kid asks again that you leave them alone and walks off.
Do you start following them around the store while lecturing while also threaten them with following them out of the store when they leave?
Believe it or not, the only legal way you can handle the above situation is to leave them alone when they ask the first time. And there's a reason for that. Lecturing is a disciplinary action, as well as continued lecturing. If the child in question isn't in your care, you have NO legal rights to discipline them. At all. Period.
As for the obligation to teach the kids of other people when they're acting up. How do you figure? That excuse of parents not being able to be there 24/7 is bullshit. The parent's job isn't only to punish kids when they do wrong. It's to teach them to make correct decisions when they're not around.
And the slippery slope arguement of "victim culture" or whatever doesn't fly with me. Not only was the kid in the letter someone trying to scam, they were a victim of vigilante harrassment. Believe it or not, criminals can be victims of separate, but related crimes.
Another point is that this whole "obligation" to parent for parents thing is taken way too far a lot of the time. "Video games are much too violent! Parent's can't be around 24/7 to watch what their kids are doing." That's why you teach your kid the difference between fantasy and reality BEFORE it becomes a problem.
kazuul Feb 25th 2011 10:57AM
If you see a kid sticking something in his mouth that he shouldn't, would you stop him?
If you see a kid reaching to touch a hot item, would you stop him?
If you see a kid leaning dangerously over a railing, would you pull them back?
So why is wrong for us to correct a bad behavior? I understand that it is a parent's job to watch and teach thier kid, but they can't be there 24/7. Esepcialy with WoW. Unless the parent is playing with the kid or looking over his shoulder when he's scamming, the parent wont even know what's going on.
If the parent isn't around to see his behavior there -is- a certain obligation to correct it. I do agree that it could have been handled a little better (the threat to harass him over alts was a little much, but I don't have a whole picture on the argument to make an accurate opinion on the scolding as a whole.) but this person was by no means wrong to try and correct a bad behavior.
Kunikenwad! Feb 25th 2011 11:10AM
A thousand times yes.
Scooter Feb 25th 2011 11:23AM
Remorseful was just concerned that he took things a little too far. There is nothing wrong with him trying to correct a kids behavior, but there is a difference between looking someone in the eye and saying something vs. picking them up, slamming them against the wall and screaming it. Remorseful's only fault was exactly what you mentioned. Beyond that the analysis is moot because we were not there.
kazuul Feb 25th 2011 11:41AM
@ scooter
My post was directed more at Lisa's half ofthe article and the scolding debate in general. You're completely right that I can't have an accurate analysis on the severity of IR's scolding. All I'm saying is that scolding a bad behavior isn't a terrible thing
AudreyR Feb 25th 2011 3:11PM
There's also a difference between saving a child from harm and correcting bad behavior....In most cases.
Aevi Feb 25th 2011 11:02AM
This reminds me of something that happened to me about 4 years ago. I was fairly new to the game. My husband and I around 40 or maybe 50 something. We had been playing, running around trying to have a romantic date in game. We were trying to go to Old Hillsbrad, but found out we were too low level, so we hiked it back to Gadgetztan (however you spell it!) to fly home. Since we were there, I decided to check the neutral AH. "What could it hurt?" Were my exact words.
On the AH I saw Netherweave cloth (the top at the time) in stacks of 20 for 3s each, yes 3 SILVER! I swooped in, who wouldn't? I bought enough to make a few bags and then I got a whisper. "You stole my Netherweave Cloth! Give it back." I was told he was trying to send it to an alt using the AH. I didn't even know you could do such a thing. Still, I bought it on the AH. I did nothing wrong. That's the chance you take with the AH. But this guy continued to harass me for about an hour or 2. (I did not know about ignore either.) He even got on an alt and harassed me from there. He told me he was the leader of a top guild on our server (he wasn't lying about that) and proceeded to tell me that I would never raid on this server, because I stole from him.
I cried quite a bit duiring this "conversation" and I was 33 years old! I eventually reported him to Blizz and put him on ignore (thanks IF General Chat!)
I never forgot him. I still think he's a jerk and he is still on my ignore list. (Oh yeah. I've finished all the end game content besides Cata., so clearly he had no power to blacklist me from raiding, as he claimed.)
This is an MMO, not everyone will have thick skins or hearts of stone. There are real people you are dealing with. Not a generalized idea of people, but actual people. They don't all feel the same or react the same. The only thing that you can control is the way YOU behave. A short whisper to let the offender know that what they did is wrong and why, then ignore. That's all you need. There is no reason to drag it on or threaten to change to alts if he ignored you. If you feel like you made this child cry, then you probably did. And you have no idea how that will affect him or how long he will carry the memory of being berated in a video game.
Astoreth Feb 25th 2011 3:41PM
There's a huge difference between what you did and what this kid did.
You fairly bought cloth on the Auction House. You did not steal the cloth, you paid for it, and the poster should have known that other people buying out his cloth was a risk when he posted it (especially if he was as uber as he claimed. Seriously, if you want to trade cross-faction, you post it HIGH). You did not do anything to warrant the negative reaction you received from the other party.
The kid tried to run a scam. He went so far as to throw up a fake item to intentionally deceive the OP. Despite (presumably) being told at some point in his life that Stealing Is Wrong, he tried to steal from someone -- and that's the kind of action that warrants negative consequences.
What you "learned" from your encounter is that if you buy cheap cloth on the AH in accordance with the rules people will yell at you. What the kid learned from HIS encounter is that if he tries to scam people they will yell at him. One of these lessons is false and harmful, and the other is true and valuable.
It's not about having a thick skin or not. It's about learning the lesson appropriate to the situation. A healthier lesson for you to take from your encounter is that some people are offensive morons and /ignore is your friend. But I think the lesson this kid got was exactly the one he needed.
ashtin Feb 25th 2011 11:01AM
you know what I meant moorit but nice try. And if you were my teacher and you thought it was acceptable to to pick on eleven year olds and harass them over the internet like this grown woman did I'd make sure I went home from school one day and told my parents and turned you in and got you fired. Even if I had to make shit up.
Darky Feb 25th 2011 11:07AM
Was referring to the kid.
Bynde Feb 25th 2011 11:11AM
I disagree with most of you.
I don't think the adult player did anything wrong or anything to be sorry for as long as the worst of it was they called the kid a 'troll'.
Better this kid cry himself to sleep in their bedroom then cry themselves to sleep in a jail cell someday. He was 11 years old? Perfect time for his to learn that in life he's going to run across people that may decide to call him out for his dishonesty/scamming. Next time he tries it may not be online and it may not be with someone so forgiving. You may have helped change the course of his life by confronting him, instead of waving it away and hoping Blizz does something.
There are consequences to bad behavior. And if all this kid gets is a cry-fest one evening, he's lucky and fortunate.
To me, it's always a matter of 'speaking up'. I'm not one to let any stupid or hurtful comment to go unanswered. "Reporting " them is the right thing to do. But, confronting them for their behavior has to happen.
You did the right thing, Ironically Remorseful. You did the perfect thing, for you, the rules and for this kid. You were not abusive, but you were also not silent in the face of dishonest and bad behavior. Good for you, stop beating yourself up.
Spriestess Feb 25th 2011 11:25AM
I play WoW with my 12 year old, and if this interaction had happened with them... first I'd profusely apologize to Remorseful and then /salute them. Why? Because human decency and integrity shouldn't have an age limit. Just from my personal experience, the integrity of the player base in WoW has really gone down. Back in my day (and get off my lawn while you're at it), if someone was a scammer, ninja, etc, then the server population warned each other and people would shy away from those types. Anymore, there a lot of shady #*$%ers out there and they completely get away with it.
I constantly monitor my 12 year old. Either we're in a group together in game or he's literally playing 2 feet away from me and I'm watching what he's doing. I try my best to help mold him into a decent player and person. But if he snuck something past me like this, I would want him to get called out on it. And I'd appreciate it if the person did like Remorseful did.... not with insults and name calling but with a firm explanation of why it's wrong and unacceptable. If a kid is mature enough to play a game with other people then they should be mature enough to understand the social etiquette that goes along with it and be able to determine right from wrong.
Tai Feb 25th 2011 11:30AM
I knew an 11 yo boy who bragged to me how he had been banned 4-5 times from Runequest for defrauding other players, specifically saying he had a high demand item and taking the would be buyer's gold then logging off. Did he know it was wrong? sure, did he care? not at all, except maybe to laugh at the person was stupid enough to lose their gold that way (his opinion, not mine). For this kid he might have played along with your lecture, giving you the responses you anticipated just to see how far you would go and to have a good laugh. Myself I would just report and let the gms do their job.
Xantenise Feb 25th 2011 4:55PM
Not all scammers that age are little asses - they could be doing it because they "need" the money, and might even feel slight guilt about the thought of doing it. Who else here did stuff they knew was wrong that they felt slightly bad about, but not badly enough to stop doing it?
If the kid was really unaffected by Remorseful telling him off, I'm pretty sure he would have just taunted Remorseful instead of playing along. What would playing along achieve when he could wind someone up?
fetu Feb 25th 2011 11:33AM
Lisa, I have to disagree with you. When you say "You set out to cause another player frustration. You suspect he was in tears at one point. That's trolling -- and you knew it, too, as we see from your rationalizations ("He deserved it.")".
Seems to me that this child set out to cause other people frustration as well, I imagine if some other poor kid tried to buy this item, they might have been left in tears too.
While the poster's reaction may have been a tad over the top, I don't think we need to be feeling too sorry for the poor little thief.
lisapoisso Feb 25th 2011 11:55AM
I never said we should feel sorry for the child. I said we shouldn't bully him as a remedy for his own bad behavior.
ashtin Feb 25th 2011 1:24PM
I didn't say i was completely against the idea rationally but from the impression I'm getting from the remorseful is that she raged against him and then thought about making alts and then some of the posters here thought it was a good idea she raged against him and seemed to support the fact she raged on him and supported the idea that she make alts and continue to harass him until she would effectively run him off.
talkingmike Feb 25th 2011 11:56AM
The self-righteousness and Good-Ol'-Day-Syndrome the this thread is nauseating.
VSUReaper Feb 25th 2011 11:58AM
I sense and good drama mama/bad drama mama thing going on here, and honestly, as some of the people on the first page said, you were right on with what you did. You threatened to troll him on an alt, but you never did.
To me, that would have been the line to cross/not cross.
Dont feel bad b/c some kids parents failed him.