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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsOfficers' Quarters: Directing your cash flow
by Scott Andrews 
Feb 28th 2011 at 9:00AM
Almost exactly two years ago, I wrote a column about guild bank gold and the proper use of it. The game has changed quite a bit since then. Most guilds now have a steady income from the Cash Flow perk. With the consolidation of loot tables for both raid sizes, even smaller raiding guilds can loot and sell some pretty impressive BoEs. Guilds are no longer dependent on the generosity of their own members to stay in the black.
In this new "business model," two officers are having a debate about how to use this income to the guild's best advantage. This week's email spells out their arguments:
Hey Scott,
I recently got into an argument with my friend, and we are both officers of the same guild.
We were discussing how the guild bank is to function. Specifically, I wanted to use the guild money which we got from BoE epics to make flasks for the raid at a much lower cost than AH. He didn't approve of the idea that [the] guild bank is losing money for something that should be mandatory for the raid.
My points for this are:
- guild epic BoEs are earned collectively as a group, so the gold we get are technically "shared" towards the whole raid
- guild bank money wont be used for anything else
He responds by saying that:
- guild bank money should only be used for emergencies
- a considerable amount of gbank money would make our guild look less "scratchy" (ie having 0 gold will make us look bad)
- we should not be giving free gold to members because we are already doing so much (ie leading raids, recruiting)
- he stresses that its not "necessary" to help them out, as they should be self-sufficient in preparing for raids anyways
So then the argument escalated to extremes, and I went on to saying that it doesn't matter if we spent all the guild bank giving away flasks and repairs (to now I still stand by my point), because it will help us collectively as a group to improve. Then he said what if he withdrew all the guild money and put himself in full epic BoE gear, in which it will help us collectively as well (as a raid).
I want to know what you think. Is sharing BoE epic gold with guildies a bad thing? Is the amount of gold in the guild bank really that important? What is the guild bank really used for if not for flasks? Am I missing an idea behind all this?
Sincerely and thanks,
Concerned
Hi, Concerned. When I first read your email, I was tempted to say, "You're right and he's wrong, end of story." Then I thought about it a bit more and realized that maybe the answer isn't quite so obvious. Let's examine the two opposing scenarios and weigh the benefits and drawbacks.
Officers only
What if the officers used the gold for their own purposes? They work hard to support the guild and certainly contribute more overall to the guild's success than the average member. Don't the officers deserve some benefits?
They do. Occasionally rewarding your officers can help them feel appreciated and prevent burnout. A key part of leading a guild is helping your officers to feel like their time spent supporting the guild isn't wasted.
What if you took all the guild money and BoEs and gave it all to the officers to help them gear up? Certainly the guild would benefit from this when you raid, provided your officers have the skill and the attendance to make solid contributions to your raid nights.
However, I can't deny that there would be some resentment here. After all, as Concerned points out, the money and the BoEs that the bank possesses were earned by the entire guild, not just the officers. I predict some hard feelings if you use the bank purely for the officers' benefit.
On the other hand, your officers would certainly be happy about it. One of the toughest parts of keeping a guild going is to retain officers and replace officers who leave. With this policy, you'll find it easier to keep officers and find new volunteers. Ultimately, it's a matter of weighing such a generous reward for your officers against the fallout among your regular members.
If you're going to proceed in this fashion, you should put this policy in writing. Such a practice should never appear to be a back-door deal. Everything should be out in the open, and notes should be kept about who received what.
The other part of this argument is that the guild should stay well-funded for emergencies and for the appearance of wealth. Here's where I don't quite follow it. I can't recall ever experiencing a guild emergency that could be solved with gold. The closest thing I can imagine would be when an important new crafting recipe is added to the game, such as the new meta-gem cuts in 4.0.6. But how often does that happen that you need to hoard gold just in case?
As for the appearance of wealth, I really don't see it as an issue. I doubt that a new recruit is worried about the guild's stockpile.
Sharing the wealth
Concern's plan is to use the guild's wealth, including gold from sales of BoE items, to benefit all raiding members by providing flasks. This plan could also be extended to food, potions, enchants, gems, and other items that raiders require, as well as repairs.
The benefits here are rather obvious. Everyone, including officers, could save their own money, and the raid leader would be assured that everyone was fully prepared for every raid.
By doing so, you'd allow your raiders to have more cash on hand to buy or craft upgrades for themselves, so it's possible that it would even out compared to equipping the officers directly. More importantly, you'd earn goodwill from all of your raiders. That can go a long way if the guild finds itself struggling for a while. Your members may be less likely to jump ship if they have to give up their freebies by doing so.
A compromise
Perhaps the best solution is a compromise: Provide certain amenities such as feasts and cauldrons to everyone (either for free or at a discount), while expecting your regular raiders to fund their own enchants and gems. Meanwhile, you could offer your officers the perk of free gems or free enchants. That way, your officers feel rewarded and your members don't feel neglected.
You can also use your guild's gold to provide incentives. For example, you could encourage better attendance by creating a special rank for raiders with 90% or greater attendance. That rank could have access to guild bank repairs.
However, don't run your bank into the ground in a fit of generosity. Do the math and make sure you can cover everything you plan to provide before you promise it. Multiplying things by 25 means the costs ramp up rather quickly.
Also, keep in mind that even the juiciest BoEs will decrease in value over time, particularly once the next raiding tier is released, so try to sell them quickly. Every day they sit in a bank vault, they lose value.
A guild's gold is just another resource to be managed like any other. If you don't spend it on something to help somebody, you're wasting it. In my opinion, it's better to spend too freely than to lock it away in a vault and let it gather dust. If there's one true thing about WoW, it's that you can always make more gold if you need it.
/salute
Join us to learn how to survive the leveling process, deal with guild perk freeloaders, and discuss the guild talent controversy or the guild reputation system. Send Scott your guild-related questions and suggestions at scott@wowinsider.com; you may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
adyuaa Feb 28th 2011 9:52PM
Do dailies. It will take forever, but you can get up to 1000 guild XP per toon per day. If the cousin ever logs on, you can speed it up with a guild instance run.
Topomaster Feb 28th 2011 10:41AM
I've been an officer in a guild that raided 25s in BC and WoTLK and is now raiding 10s in Cata. We have always provided flasks, food, enchanting materials, gems, and raid repairs for free. One way that we kept the guild bank healthy in the beginning was allowing raiders to make-up lost EPGP/DKP by farming the equivalent time and donating the materials to the bank. We also had a few raiders that were generous in their donations of herbs and other raw materials. By the end of Wraith we were consistently above 250k gold. Now in Cata with the guild perks and selling a few BoEs we find that asking members to farm isn't even necessary, but people continue to donate.
Once we opened up the guild bank in this way we were really surprised by how much it was appreciated by the members and how they all tried to "give back" when they could. It has also helped us to attract and retain raiders. We have always limited the bank to raiders only, but no one has really complained about that. The part I really like about it as a raid leader is that there is never an excuse for someone not to be prepared at raid.
Amallthia Feb 28th 2011 11:01AM
The less time your raiders/officers have to spend grinding dailies and farming for consumables will reflect in less burn out and better raid attendance. However, you cannot completely spoil them either, then you'll end up with lazy brats. I like to reward raiders randomly with buff food and flasks from the guild bank, it isn't something they expect every week, but it sure makes them happy.
Once you know what your average daily cash flow is you can set up guild bank repairs for all raiders and officers.
If you have a trustworthy officer who is good at playing the AH give them a "treasurer" rank and more access to the guild bank items and gold. Allow them to sell off items that are collecting dust to buy mats for food and flasks. Make it a team effort, if your guildies aren't contributing items/mats to the gbank then there will not see any food/flasks in the mail.
Shadda Mar 1st 2011 10:18AM
My guild uses the EPGP addon to dole out loot. For those unfamiliar with the addon, it assigns each guild member a priority rating by dividing Effort Points by Gear Points; those with the highest priority get first pick on a new piece of gear.
One way to earn EP in our guild is by donating flasks/herbs/fish. We keep up a pretty steady supply of flasks this way, which allows us to provides free flasks/feasts for raids. We're also trying to provide as many raiders as possible with epic enchants using crystals we get from DEing surplus gear (with priority being given to those who have epic weapons they won't soon replace). We offer guild repairs only during progression raids, which means we don't run out of gold. :)
Qz Feb 28th 2011 11:20AM
Officers are supposed to lead and direct the guild, but there is no reason one couldn't see what the guild thought of the situation. Not every decision needs to be excutively made by the leadership, especially if your guild is tight-knit.
I looked at the various ways I could use the guild money to help the raid, and I put it to a vote on our guild website. Raiders had the choice of free repairs during raid, free raiding consumables (like flasks and feasts), a limited amount of free gems/enchants per month, or they could suggest their own ideas. Overwhelmingly, people voted for consumables, so that's what I do. The guild is happy.
How you choose to reward your officers is another issue but it should be reasonable. The goal is to make the officer feel appreciated for their work and give them a small perk as thanks, not to pamper them above every one else. This will only foster resentment among your guild. Unless a particular officer is really putting in a ton of hours (in which case, maybe it's time to split the job with another), it's far better to give them a small perk like free repairs, free gems, or something like first pick at any drop recipes. If a guild officer has worked especially hard that week, toss in a little something extra you might not normally give them.
Giving all the guild BoEs to officers seems over-the-top (and also unnecessary since officers are probably raiding and will have access to BoP drops for those slots), but I don't see any reason why an officer couldn't be allowed to request the occasional item and get priority above selling.
And whatever you pick, it should be transparent to the rest of the guild and not under the table.
dawnseven Feb 28th 2011 11:31AM
My comments to this when I read were the same as two previous posters:
A) What exactly would constitute an emergency?
B) Since everyone contributes what benefit(s) can you provide to everyone?
I don't raid anymore but I do contribute to my guild through a stable of alts. I've leveled 7 of them to 85 so far contributing via the Cash Flow perk and with lump sum gold donations. In addition, when I pick up the random blue here or there or have odd amounts of herbs or leather or what have you I throw that in the guild bank. I'm a team player and all that and like helping others out, but if everything (mats & gold) were horded solely for the purpose of outfitting or supplying the raiders in my guild that would be a bit disappointing.
Torr Feb 28th 2011 11:35AM
My guild currently has next to no money problems, partially because there are only 3 people in the guild(GM, GM's wife and guild second in command) with unlimited bank access, and when it comes to money, they contribute about 1k gold daily just by doing their routine.(ok, its the GM's wife's routine, she manages all of his, and hers, profession cooldowns and farm for ore/herbs/volatiles while he and the kids are at work, and 1k daily for her is a BAD day...) Mostly what they are doing however is cleaning out guild junk...like the time some idiot filled EVERY open slot in all 6 tabs with nothing but 1 linen cloth a slot...ya, times like that. Guild money is mostly used for guild repairs, and most don't even use it for that, I am of elite raider rank(means I am in a position of authority in raids, in my case Healing lead) and for repairs Ive got a 25g limit and to just withdraw gold its the same. I know People of raider rank(1 rank below mine) have the same limits, but officers(1 rank above mine) have a 50g limit for both, but since most guild matters and business are are handled by those same 3 people form above, plus out discipline officer for issues between players and for stealing, making officer a seldom used rank.
Gearing up and getting consumables for raiders is a simple matter too. If your professions produce something, like my alchemy, then I bring along a bunch of different flasks to each raid for people who need them, and just sell them to said raiders for between 20-30% AH prices, however I do go up to full price for those that request them EVERY SINGLE RAID. Its the same thing for enchanters and cooks, however JC's usually have one condition: bring you own blue quality or higher gems, they usually give away anything of green quality tho. Crafters however are under a mandatory rule in the guild: Pre-current expansion gear, give away to anyone who asks, current expansion gear of green quality sell for vendor price, blue quality and up sell for any price below or equal to AH prices, unless said person brings all their own mats, then vendor price is the standard fee for crafting.
Its not a perfect setup, BoE usually are up for grabs to anyone if they drop for example, however it works for our guild quite well, and we police each other to make sure no one is taking undue advantage of anyone else.
Kendro Feb 28th 2011 11:40AM
The best and fairest way to handle the guild bank is through cauldrons, food, and gems/chants (only for really high end gear though in guild you can get maelstrom chants only for 372 gear).
At the same time, until we hit level 20, it is expected of our raiders to bring enough flasks to cover the night, as only a few cauldrons will be supplied to cover everyone.
Kendro Feb 28th 2011 11:40AM
The best and fairest way to handle the guild bank is through cauldrons, food, and gems/chants (only for really high end gear though in guild you can get maelstrom chants only for 372 gear).
At the same time, until we hit level 20, it is expected of our raiders to bring enough flasks to cover the night, as only a few cauldrons will be supplied to cover everyone.
Nyold Feb 28th 2011 11:41AM
The point about appearance of wealth and emergency cash is valid, but only to an extent. A guild with 1-2k cash will seem poor, but once you have 40k cash, doesn't matter if you have 50 or 60k, the members will not care as much. With the new guild perks (10% extra money of loot deposited into guild bank, etc), it's easy to get to this point quickly.
What we've done with our guild is to pay the officers salary, provided they can actually do the job. (That's why we have officer trials too). Nothing much, only 400g per week (which they can get themselves if they're doing dailies). But it makes them feel like they're being rewarded. Of course, we take officer attendance, skill (both raiding and leadership) into account, and we monitor these closely too.
Other than that, we provide free repairs on raiding nights. We provide consumables, gems, and enchants at-cost, which means that the guild is not subsidizing for anything, but the members also buy them at a discount compared to AH. It does help that among all officers, we have max-level of every professions.
There's no other outlet for guild spending really. Occasionally we provide bonus for attending that night's raid such as 100g per person who attended. This would be agreed in advance well before the raid starts, and we only do it to bolster morale (for example, if we've been going against the same boss over and over again). But we never make it into a pattern such that people won't feel entitled. People should come for fun and not for gold.
Drez Feb 28th 2011 11:42AM
I like the system my guild uses, and I haven't seen it replicated in too many other guilds (though not original by any stretch).
- We sell all BoEs and maelstrom crystals.
- Guild repairs are for "raider" rank and above (not applicable to social invites, tryouts, or former raiders who no longer meet attendance requirements).
- All guild bank gold in excess of 100k is divided evenly and distributed to all raiders (including officers/guild leader) at the end of each month.
We are a progression 25-man raid guild so last month's payday was around 250k, split between about 25 raiders. Raiders know they get that payout where they can use it to fund their own raiding, buy their own equipment, or waste it however they'd like.
Twill Feb 28th 2011 12:24PM
Free repairs. Make sure you do this. I love me some free repairs.
Twill Feb 28th 2011 12:24PM
Free repairs. Make sure you do this. I love me some free repairs.
Rabidpandrar Feb 28th 2011 12:32PM
"Here's where I don't quite follow it. I can't recall ever experiencing a guild emergency that could be solved with gold."
Just coming from an old-school raider, I think this mentality originated from the Vanilla raiding days when certain pieces of gear (Ony cloaks, resist gear, etc.) was a necessary part of raiding. The materials weren't as to come by back then, so stockpiling gold for purchasing mats to craft on the go was the norm.
But I agree that these days, saving extreme amounts gold seems a bit pointless. At the same time, I don't believe in handing out consumables like candy and promoting complacency. Raiders should always feel it necessary to take the initiative to better themselves on their own time and gold rather than rely solely on guild hand-me-outs.
As a compromise, I think a guild bank should help on particularly difficult raid nights where the costs can climb unnaturally high (such as progression encounters or heroic content), as long as raiders understand that they are still responsible for themselves during other raid nights.
Naryn Feb 28th 2011 12:41PM
My guild runs 25 mans each week, we're fairly progressed and we do raid 4 nights a week, the money in our bank is used for making cauldrons, usually 3 small cauldrons per raid so every one can get a flask, we sometimes have feasts but we are mainly waiting till we get the 90 stats feast before that's used every raid.
However for instance I'm only a raider, not an officer but I play an important role, especially on Atramedes, I can kite him for the entire ground phase but I have to respec to do so, if anyone needs to respec for healing or tanking that's covered too.
Any BoE's are put in the /g bank and members can buy them for a discount price if they weren't in the raid or want them for an alt.
Naryn Feb 28th 2011 12:41PM
My guild runs 25 mans each week, we're fairly progressed and we do raid 4 nights a week, the money in our bank is used for making cauldrons, usually 3 small cauldrons per raid so every one can get a flask, we sometimes have feasts but we are mainly waiting till we get the 90 stats feast before that's used every raid.
However for instance I'm only a raider, not an officer but I play an important role, especially on Atramedes, I can kite him for the entire ground phase but I have to respec to do so, if anyone needs to respec for healing or tanking that's covered too.
Any BoE's are put in the /g bank and members can buy them for a discount price if they weren't in the raid or want them for an alt.
emberdione Feb 28th 2011 12:42PM
Personally, and this is how every guild I have been in has run, what goes in the guild bank needs to be redistributed as fairly as possible to the guild as a whole.
Most guilds have that first tab that is the "donate whatever, take whatever". Then the crafting tab, that is used to help members with rare crafting bits, or that last piece of x they need to make a boe purple, assumed of course that the person is equipping it. Then the raiding tab which is the stockpile of gems, enchants, flasks, food, etc.
Here's my thing though. Even in a 25 man environment, people need to take care of their OWN business. I never expect a guild to gem and enchant my gear (I was shocked the first time I was in a guild that did that.) At the worst I would ask to buy something from the guild bank. I never expect a guild to give me flasks, I expect there to be a guild flask maker that I can give mats to and he gives me flasks. I expect to have to make my own food. As far as I am concerned the only thing bank funds should be used for is repairs, because when running (esp 25m) raids, you can wipe for hours through no fault of your own.
I can kind of see the way to having the guild "fund" someone learning a new pattern (purchasing the primordial for someone to learn something in ICC for example) or something similar, but only if that person is an officer and likely to stay.
Final point: You should never be buying boe epics for your officers. IF they were really dedicated to your guild and truly felt that the upgrade would make your raid that much better, then they should have gotten it themselves!
Meiji Feb 28th 2011 1:08PM
When I was an officer in a progression raiding guild, (before the guild bank had automatic deposit) we used our guild bank to support raiding. We provided food, be it feasts or specialized food for particular classes for the raid (no cauldron's at the time) incentivized our team by providing repairs on progression nights to our members who maintained a certain level of performance.
I wouldn't worry too much about 'emergencies' -- I agree with the article's author is not a very realistic concern. The only major investment I can think of that we used funds from our guild bank for was buying mats to make shadow resist gear for our raid team for Mother Shahraz back in the day. Since, Blizz has seemed to move away from the resist set paradigm but if you're concerned about such eventualities, implement a 'floor value' which, if the guild bank drops below, repairs and food are temporarily suspended until such a time as the bank account has been restored to a semblance of health (Likely through some sort of federal bailout.)
Finally, its really important to have rules about how the guild bank is used to be written out and clear for your membership. As the author said, they are the ones who earn the gold, the guild's officers should be under obligation to use it for the benefit of the guild. Also, try to conduct all major transactions, such as selling those BoEs in as transparent a manner as possible. Its always good to head off potential sources of drama well in advance by having clear and procedures in place (in writing) and following them.
SloBash Feb 28th 2011 1:38PM
I've set our guild up so that our raid leaders (i'm one of them) collect 3 flasks from every player at the start of every raid (it's how many we'd use anyway). Then we use cauldrons for the night which, with the guild perk, last 1.5 hours each. 3 people use their own flasks (usually we have 1 or 2 alchemists in the raid so they use their own so they get 2 hours of flask).
At the same time we have an incentive for fishing from pools for feast materials. The guild is paying 75G a stack for fish used in the new maqnifique feasts (which we can't make yet). By the time we get the fishing achievement and can make feasts we'll have a large stockpile of fish.
In a couple of months time with all the fish and flasks in the bank we'll be able to make enough feasts and cauldrons to keep our raids stocked for months. Months with no farming for raid consumables. My guildies are happy :) It will give them time to work on their gear instead of sitting around fishing or flying around herbing for hours on end.
GhostWhoWalks Feb 28th 2011 2:00PM
I once had a similar argument with a guildie, but based around proper usage of your own money. He argued that spending money at the auction house and in-game services (like long flight paths) was wasteful and money should be conserved as much as possible. I argued that "he who dies with the most toys is still dead", that money is there to be spent. Obviously, you need to spend wisely and avoid putting yourself into the poor house, but sitting on 5k gold does you no good when you refuse to take advantage of it.
That places me firmly on Concerned's side of the issue: guild bank funds are to be used to by the guild, not horded. You certainly want to put limits on how much guildies can take at a time, but yeah, when the guild's alchemist says he needs materials to make flasks for the guild's raid tonight, let him take money from the guild bank.