I just don't see it as a big issue, really. I've yet to encounter any pack where I was dealing with more than one caster, where CC wasn't available. It's at worst a minor inconvenience.

If you're getting through packs fast enough that Heroic Throw hasn't come off of cooldown by the time you get to the next pull, then you're probably geared enough that this isn't so much of an issue, really.

That said, I think Gag Order has just become ridiculously overpriced for 2 talent points for just Heroic Throw's silence effect.

it's not gonna be that much of a problem. i don't even take it most of the time anymore, the talent points are too valuable. even if you still want it, heroic throw is still there and it was always the more useful silence of the two. charging in to shield bash a caster just to run out again never made much sense.

A 3 second blanket silence every 30 seconds is powerful enough. While I think prot warriors should have a lot of options for locking down casters, having pummel be part of gag order would simply be overpowered.

I'm going to have to agree with Matt.

You aren't losing an "interrupt with a short cooldown". In fact, Pummel has a SHORTER cooldown than Shield Bash. Sure, it doesn't have a silence, but I think that was a bit much anyways.

And honestly, if you have an issue where you can't just interrupt the target, once pulled, and move him to where you need him...you have an issue greater than one missing ability. If Silencing Throw isn't enough on the pull to get the pack in order and pulled...again, you may want to go back to Tanking 101 and practice a bit.

The PvP problems would be easily solved by shortening the lockout on SB from its current six seconds and/or removing the Daze effect. Anybody who thinks I need to "learn to tank" because I'm actually *using* all the abilities my class offers is laughable. Having my only silence be on a 30-second cooldown would be incredibly obnoxious.

It's not you using all of your abilities that's the issue...

It's you complaining about losing one, insignificant talent that suddenly makes your job so hard you have to complain about it. And it's not just you. It's also the other Chicken Littles who are screaming with open umbrellas.

Tanked 2 whole games worth of content without it. I think we'll be fine.

You could remove most of my abilities and I'd still be able to tank. The question is whether it's a balanced and fair change, or if it's yet another PvE nerf to quell PvP QQing, because Blizzard, even though they've admitted that Arenas are the biggest mistake they've ever made, is still balancing for them.

Very balanced. Very fair. We still have numerous stuns, an interrupt and an interrupt/silence. We needed a 10s Interrupt to balance with the other tanks. We're getting one.

We needed a magic mitigation cooldown to balance with the other tanks. We're getting one of those, too.

Would I give up a silence that I barely have use for in most fights to get either of these? Absolutely. And in so doing, I get both.

Keep in mind that many high-level progression warrior tanks don't even take Gag Order, so it's even LESS of a necessity than you may be thinking. Tonight I did 9/12 raid bosses, and I didn't once use Shield Bash for a silence.

I won't miss it.

@MattKrotzer:

I cleared 9/12 this evening, too (plus BH). Know what I used on trash? Silences.

Will it break boss encounters in raids? No. Will it make trash even more obnoxious in raids and Heroic five-mans? Yes.

This PvP balance problem could easily have been solved by changing how Shield Bash works against PCs (or even changing it completely by baseline removing the Daze and shortening the lockout). Instead, they are at least looking at eliminating an entire mechanic from our toolbox.

I'm not going to thank someone for giving me a cookie with one hand while they punch me with the other.

"The question is whether it's a balanced and fair change..."

"Very balanced. Very fair."

You're assuming it's just a PVP balance. Blizzard has made no statement on the matter, so stop pretending you know the truth.

Exchanging a silence for an interrupt is not game-breaking and hardly even obnoxious, especially since this is how Prot Warriors have been rolling for the vast majority of WoW's life. It's inconvenient. That's it.

Your cookie/punch metaphor illustrates your entitlement and lack of perspective issues. Nerfs are not about lying or tricking you. They're about balance. Nobody cares about giving you cookies or punches.

@loop_not_defined:

If you don't think this change is about PvP balance, you know nothing about Warriors. It's patently obvious to anyone who understands our abilities, talents, and PvE/PvP playstyles. I will give you $5 if you can find a reputable Warrior blog or forum that is discussing this as a PvE-necessitated change.

@Jonisjalopy:

I forgot to respond to your first post, where you said, "You aren't losing an 'interrupt with a short cooldown'." All I really have to say is that it's a complete strawman: my entire objection is the removal of the silence; to respond that we're not losing a short-CD interrupt means that either you missed the point entirely or are deliberately misrepresenting me.

pummel is basically nothing compared to shield bash. The silence from shield bash was very useful and yes it makes moving mobs around easier- pummel has lower cd, who cares, u are not alone in the party/raid other ppl can interrupt too, not to mention some mobs can be interrupted by stunning them. (so far pummel is useless) But there is more:, bash dazes in pve, pummel....; bash generates aggro (even if most tanks do not know it and only use it to interrupt) pummel .... hm useless
IMO this is the biggest nerf in this patch for prot warrs. I really really hate pummel!!!

It amuses me endlessly to see the positive posts getting downvoted and the negative getting upvoted in reference to a patch which is largely a rather substantial BUFF to Protection Warriors.

No wonder Blizzard gets so frustrated.

@MattKrotzer:

The reason you're getting downvoted, as I see it, is that you're claiming that a major, nerfing mechanic change isn't a big deal, simply because we're getting one good *unrelated* buff, plus one *small* related buff. You seem to be seeing this as the removal of a short-CD interrupt+silence being the *tradeoff* for getting a magic damage reduction on Shield Block. And that's simply not the case, at all. The Shield Bash/Gag Order change is a clear response to something else entirely--namely, that our non-damaging interrupts will no longer miss.

The Spell Reflect/Shield Block change is paired, balanced, and fair. We'll lose out on damage on threat on trash, but we'll more than make up for it by taking less magic damage on bosses, who are mostly immune to our Spell Reflect. The Shield Bash/Gag Order change, on the other hand, is a response to making Shield Bash and Pummel unmissable, and there are multiple better ways to deal with the PvP balance issues created by that change (which I've detailed in this comment thread already).

I would absolutely rather have a 12-second CD interrupt *with* a silence than a 10-second CD interrupt without one. There is no fight in Cata that can't have its interrupts managed by two people, even if one or both of them has the 12-second CD (AFAIK the longest out of all of the short-CD interrupts). Even with the CD reduction as we move from Shield Bash to Pummel, that's still, IMO and IME, a major nerf.

Sleutel, class balancing does not occur in a vacuum. Blizzard does not look at Warriors alone and then decide "Hmmm, DOESN'T FEEL RIGHT! Nerf em!" Tank balancing involves four - count them, FOUR - classes.

Also, Blizzard is not obligated to wait for someone to complain before making changes they feel are necessary.

OK warrior 101. Warriors are melee tanks. They generate alot of their threat through melee moves. Translation, warriors need to be hitting their targets to be generating threat.

That said, let's look at the difference between an interrupt and a silence. An interrupt, interrupts the target's current cast. A silence will interrupt or prevent casts for, in gag orders case, 3 sec. An interrupt can be vital when a target is casting a powerful heal. Also, if an NPC has one cast, can pull the target to the tank. A silence will stop the target from casting and force it to come melee the tank.

Encounters in cata are different from LK. I've noticed, in 5 mans, trash pulls are highly mobile. There's a new puddle of doom under your feet every other second. A good tank will move but without a silence, casters won't always follow. And LoS isn't always an option.

Paladins have Avenger's Shield. It's a 15 sec CD ranged move which deals damage, silences, AND affects up to 3 targets. With 2 points in Grand Crusader you can also have a 20% to instantly refresh the CD. A silence without a CD? Pretty powerful.... Shield bash is a 12 sec CD that effects 1 target, does not do damage but without talents can lock a target out of a school of magic. With 2 talents in Gag Order, has a 100% chance to silence the caster. After the patch this move will be removed completely, leaving heroic throw the only silence after 2 talent points (with a 30 sec CD with talents).

Yes, we will be fine without shield bash, but it's not because our class was over powered to begin with. It's because the warrior class attracts the most talented players in the game. The warrior class is plagued with PvP balancing that nerfs the crap out of PvE. We will adapt and over come but, I can't help thinking to myself "I'd rather be tanking on my paladin."
If they have to get rid of shield bash, I can see why even though I don't agree with it. I hope they atleast buff gag order to include pummel as a silence instead. If that's not enough, give the internal silence CD a 15 sec CD to be on par with avenger's shield.

A1CYancy, in regard to 5-mans, the only encounter where I've really felt stretched for interrupts/silences is while kiting adds during Setesh in Halls of Origination. In that specific case, however, I've never had to pre-emptively silence a mob - Interrupt will work just fine (saving Heroic Throw as the back-up), and with a shorter cooldown it might even be easier.

You're right that a lot of trash in Cata requires more mobility, but I just cannot recall an encounter where there's more than one repeatedly-casting caster coupled with quickly spawning void zones. If there's one I'm forgetting, are the void zones so large that you cannot simply circle around them and still remain in Thunderclap/Cleave range? And are the mobs so numerous that you have to?