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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsThe Queue: Common patch 4.1 questions
by Alex Ziebart 
Mar 2nd 2011 at 11:00AM
We've been seeing the same questions about patch 4.1 repeated fairly frequently over the last few days, so I'll be trying to tackle a small batch of those today.
Everyone in the entire world asked:
What will happen to our valor points in patch 4.1?
Since Blizzard is not adding a new tier of points, your valor point tally the day patch 4.1 launches will be rolled down into your justice points. I know that for certain. I'm pretty sure that if you end up over the cap of 4,000 justice points when your valors are rolled down, you will be able to go over the cap. But you won't accrue any more justice points until you've spent some.
Erevan asked:
It was announced in the PTR patch notes that the revamped 5-man versions of ZG and ZA will have an ilevel requirement of 346 and drop 353 epics (fantastic approach, IMO, to allowing better 5 man drops without immediately invalidating current raid equipment).
Here's my question: do the above ilevel numbers reflect the regular or heroic versions of ZG and ZA, and what gear requirements/loot drops can we expect from whichever one it isn't?
I don't believe there will be a normal version of these instances -- they're heroic only. What Blizzard is doing with these new 5-mans is providing a method of advancement for players who don't raid. They expect you to run the 5-man dungeons that were in at launch until you can do them on their heroic difficulty. Once you've conquered those and reached an ilevel of 346, you can step up and do Zul'Aman and Zul'Gurub heroics. Essentially, heroics are becoming tiered content, just like raids. Tier 1 is all of the heroics that were in at launch. Tier 2 is Zul'Aman and Zul'Gurub. Tier three will be whatever comes in patch 4.2 (or patch 4.3).
Personally, I think it's a great step for people who can't raid. Zul'Aman will even have a timed run again, which should add yet another layer of challenge to the instance. I like it.
Steve asked:
How confident should we be that new raid content will be included in 4.1? Thus far, and unless I've missed something, any mention of new raids has been excluded from the patch notes. We know that Firelands and the new Caverns of Time raids are coming, and we've seen some new tier 12 trinkets, so clearly something is in the works. But is it possible that they would limit the new content to the new 5-mans in 4.1 and hold off on new raids until 4.2?
It's entirely possible that Blizzard is going to change up its way of doing content patches. It might break up raid content and non-raid content into their own patches. But I wouldn't assume that's what's happening yet. Patch 4.1 went up on the PTR fairly bare-boned. There was a lot to datamine but not much actually available for play. Only an early iteration of Zul'Gurub and its associated quests were available the night the PTR went live. No Zul'Aman, no gear, not much of anything. I fully expect that Blizzard rushed this one out onto the PTR and it's going to be there for a long time -- long enough to add in some of that raid content.
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Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, The Queue
Reader Comments (Page 7 of 12)
matt Mar 2nd 2011 1:28PM
I still need a few drops from "optional bosses" on one of my alts. My strat when I zone into HoO is to pick ONE boss to add on to the required bosses and ask for that kill. I have never had a group say no to killing one extra boss but if you ask for a full clear of HoO in an LFD pug... prepare for disappointment or a vote kick.
Kuro Mar 2nd 2011 1:38PM
Someone else needs the throwing weapon off the life boss in HoO too, eh?
--;; no one ever does that one and there are no other viable options other than dropping a chunk of gold on em at the AH or waiting for a raid drop.
Ice Mar 2nd 2011 4:21PM
They need to make HoO "last" bosses rotate the loot.
For example on one run shadow boss' loot would drop from fire boss.
Shadow boss would drop fire loot, nature boss loot would be in celestial boss..
So those who only do fire boss will see other items dropping eventually too (like shadow boss loot in this case!) BUT those who do ALL bosses will still get same change for all bosses loot like before, but maybe from different boss.
Nothing changes for people who do all of em but a lot changes for fire boss only doers...doers? is that word. I guess it is.
GEEEENIUUUS
Ilmyrn Mar 2nd 2011 11:33AM
So with the PTR patch notes saying that Ghostlands is now flyable, how long do you think it'll be before Quel'Thalas in its entirety is flyable?
There's no portal or anything between Ghostlands and Eversong, just a river, so my guess is that they'll both be flyable but Eversong isn't ready yet. Maybe they'll move them over to the EK map while they're at it so we don't need to zone between Plaguelands and Ghostlands too. That'd be nice.
Drakkenfyre Mar 2nd 2011 11:56AM
They aren't putting the two expansions areas on the map. Not even for the first content patch.
They said during the Cataclysm beta they thought of doing that, but it turned out a whole lot harder than they thought, and it had no benefit, so they scrapped the idea.
threesixteen Mar 2nd 2011 11:34AM
i play on Quel'Dorei which doesn't have a reputation as the most cutting edge realm, but i like it. I'm in a 25 man raiding guild (Horde) and we're number 2 on the server in terms of 25-man progression (10/12). Recently our main competition in terms of 25 man progression raiding (they're on heroic modes now) lost a significant number of their core team and have suspended raiding. This leaves my guild as the only active 25 man raiding guild left (i think on the Alliance side there MIGHT be one 25man team but they're way behind progression-wise).
It seems to me that Blizzard has effectively killed any incentive for 25s in Cata. I love 25s. Obviously our guild believes that 25 man raiding is the ultimate endgame experience and even thought there are some 10mans that are equal to or slightly ahead of our progress, we sort of look at them like strange little cousins playing paddycakes while the grownups kill the real bosses.
With no distinction in loot quality, achievements, or even vanity items, what really is the future for 25s? Even wowprogress.com doesn't effectively track 25 progression (not reliably anyway). Many of us are quite disappointed that Blizzard seems to have disregarded the effort and commitment it takes to effectively run a 25 man team.
I'd love to hear from others that feel the same way. Perhaps Blizzard might then address this lack of distinction.
thanks.
Thiron Mar 2nd 2011 11:36AM
Killed 25s? Are you kidding me? They actually killed heroic 10s...
threesixteen Mar 2nd 2011 11:39AM
@thiron
huh?
what does heroic mode 10s have to do with distinguishing 25 man teams?
Therosh Mar 2nd 2011 12:00PM
The problem you're experiencing is exactly why smaller guilds like mine love this expansion. Honestly and truly, some fights in WotLK were much, much harder in 10 man, yet still dropped awful loot and left our 10-man raiders feeling the need to run both 10 and 25-man versions of the raids just to compete.
Blizzard purposefully changed the way raiding works this expansion so that everyone would be rewarded equally, and so far it's been solid.
The question I ask in response to your question is: "Why?" Why should your group of 25 people get more rewards than my group of 10 people? The boss fights are very well balanced this time around, so that the actual fights are equally as difficult. Do you want more rewards for herding around more people?
MattKrotzer Mar 2nd 2011 12:11PM
From most of what I'm reading, the 10-man versions of most fights are actually more challenging than the 25s. So enjoy your high horse, but as far as I'm concerned, it sounds like you guys are slipping pretty far back in progression, and clinging to 25s as an excuse to feel good about yourselves.
(cutaia) Mar 2nd 2011 12:22PM
"we sort of look at them like strange little cousins playing paddycakes while the grownups kill the real bosses. "
Matt's right. All signs point to the 10-man progression being more difficult this time around. So, really, you guys are getting rewarded with easier fights for spending the time putting together a 25-man team. Being so dismissive of those who are actually doing the more difficult content is a little funny.
Spelio Mar 2nd 2011 12:40PM
The 10v25 difficulty argument is always going to be disputed. I don't want to start that discussion but I do believe though that 10man fights are much less forgiving. Lose one or two people in a 25man and it can be overcome easily. Lose one or two in a 10man and it is most likely a wipe.
threesixteen Mar 2nd 2011 1:05PM
regardless of whether you think it's "Funny", the truth is, 25 mans are on the decline. Just because you are having a hard time in your ten mans isn't germane to the point i was making. which is that a distinction for those of us that successfully down endgame raid bosses while in 25 man teams ought to have a distinction separate from those who toddle around in their 10s.
Its' MUCH EASIER to pull together ten people than 25. and 10 people sort of fails to live up to the "massively" part of MMO.
but i see that you guys are fine with your tens and seem to feel they're difficult. Personally i've done 10/12 on both ten and 25 and ten is way easier. just saying.
downrate me more. lol.
threesixteen Mar 2nd 2011 1:05PM
hey matt. it's not a "high horse"; it's objective truth. some of you run 10. we run 25.
why blizzard decided to make those that run 10s feel like they're accomplishing the same as those who run 25s seems to me to have taken the lustre of the 25 man teams.
but it's obvious from my downrating that most of you don't agree. that's fine. most of you aren't in 25 man teams so i forgive you your ignorance.
as for tuning questions: it may be that some fights are harder on 10 than others. And it maybe that some are harder on 25. but that's more less anecdotal at this point.
i guess you guys support removing 25s from the game. i don't.
Kurash Mar 2nd 2011 1:11PM
Who said anything about removing 25s from the game, Threesixteen? Only you, so far.
The folks you're arguing with disagree with your statement that 25s are the "grownup" version of raiding, while 10s is somehow more childish or weak. Thus, your own argument has made the relative difficulty of both levels germane, despite your disagreement.
No one said anything about removing 25s. If you want people to take your arguments seriously you ought to refrain from exaggerating the arguments to the point of ridiculousness.
threesixteen Mar 2nd 2011 1:18PM
@(cutaia)
i'm surprised at your stance on this. shocked really.
So if i ready your response correctly, you actually believe that 10 man teams are the real mark of endgame raid achievement... you'd actually PREFER that 25s were discounted? shocked.
And if your premise that 10s are actually harder than 25s was indeed true, it seems strange to me that so many ten man guilds are farther ahead that 25s when you look at the grand scheme of progression across all realms.
Why is it that you have such a difficult time accepting the concept of a 25man raid distinction?
threesixteen Mar 2nd 2011 1:19PM
@kurash.
no, the point that i made was that 25 mans teams are vanishing and that there is little to no incentive from blizzard for teams to make the effort to keep them going.
what you're fixated on is my dismissive bon mots about ten man teams; which i pointedly included to generate some discussion around the perception of both sizes of raids.
But to expand a little for you so that you might understand the tiger blood i'm channeling here:
25 man teams require a maturity and patience that isn't common; if you doubt this, just look at the forums related to PuG behaviour. The fact that a team is able to pull 25 people together 3-4 times per week, control their actions, create and foster team spirit and patience though wipe after wipe is a remarkable feat. if you doubt this, try it yourself.
ten man teams are much easier to pull together; much easier to co-ordinate, much easier to distguish performance failures, etc.
anyway, i get that you don't believe any of this. but your tacit disregard for the qualitative difference between the two size raids is de facto dismissal of the relevance and significance of 25s.
i find this lack of support disappointing.
Grovinofdarkhour Mar 2nd 2011 1:30PM
316, I get what you're saying, but you're clinging to this obsolete idea that, compared to 10-mans, 25-mans are "the REAL raiding". With the general experience of most being that 10-mans are harder across the board, I think many would argue that 10-mans are now "the REAL raiding". It makes sense to pull together 25 people so you can drag through a few scrubs who will probably die earlier in the fights than most of you, just so they can get geared. I do 10-mans, so I don't have that option. It's absolutely easier to find 10 warm bodies than 25, if that was all we had to do, but it's not. We actually have to be more selective, and find 10 people who we have strong reason to believe can keep themselves alive through the encounter. We have a lot less room for error than you, and that makes 10-mans harder before we've even stepped through the door.
You said, "even thought there are some 10mans that are equal to or slightly ahead of our progress, we sort of look at them like strange little cousins playing paddycakes while the grownups kill the real bosses."
You said, "those who toddle around in their 10s."
Now, both of these statements sound extraordinarily condescending. You've been posting here a long time and I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. But if there's any actual reason for the tone of these statements - other than trying to feel like what you choose to run makes you somehow better than others in a way you don't think should require any explanation - I'm having a hard time seeing what it is.
threesixteen Mar 2nd 2011 1:41PM
@Grovinofdarkhour
fair enough Grov.
I actually shied away from using the phrase "real raiding" on purpose. I completely understand that 10man raids are as fun and challenging as 25s. And yes, you and others on this thread have understandably reacted to my patronizing characterization of ten man teams. mea culpa.
still, lost in this (and i take the blame again) is the truth, which i defy anyone to deny, that 25 man teams involve, if not a more difficult paradigm then certainly a DISTINCT flavour that is at this point not recognized in game either through achievement, loot quality (not something i really would endorse) or even on the progression sites (like wowprogress.com).
Perhaps its the word "distinction" which is creating the antipathy here. I think that 25 man teams deserve to be distinguished from ten man teams. Nothing that anyone has written here justifies another point of view. 25 man teams are in fact different than 10s. it's harder to find 25 people of appropriate skill, gear, availability, humour, commitment etc than it is to find ten. i should again stipulate that the people that play in 25s are not qualitatively BETTER players than (which is why i was rejecting the relative mechanical difficulty of the two sized raids) those people in tens. I get that we're all playing the same game. But my 25man team is playing on a different scale and that scale is significant, we take pride in it, and we'd like to be recognized for it.
Finally allow me to concede an apology to those who felt i was condescending to them. I could have delivered my initial points without such polarizing langauge.
Grov, thanks for your balanced reply.
xoxo.
Grovinofdarkhour Mar 2nd 2011 1:59PM
No prob. And sure, there's absolutely a place for 25s. I'd be the first to admit that there's just an intrinsically more epic feeling to being in a larger group. But as an organizer, I hated putting them together, both because it took longer and because we had to pull in pugs that were not known commodities to us, and who caused us problems more often than not.
Considering that I do think the achievement system is still relatively "new" and trying to have 10-man and 25-man versions of every achievement at the beginning made it really unwieldly, I would tend to think that the feeling you get from doing 25-mans - the "Epicness of Scale" - is its own reward. What kind of recognition in particular are you looking for?