15 Minutes of Fame: Raiding without their strats on

What happens when you don't study your raid strategies before raid time -- on purpose? Those wild and crazy guys in The Seven Scientists of Runetotem (US) have been raiding without their strats on again ... And that's just the way they like it. "The rule is, don't read any spoilers on a (raid) boss until we've killed it, and if you do, don't talk about them," explains guild member Neminem. "... This way, we actually get to figure out strategy for ourselves, instead of just regurgitating a strategy someone else came up with."
In earlier WoW, so-called "blind raiding" has been a badge of honor limited to the few bleeding-edge progression guilds that literally race through beta and new-release content, plus a few, dogged hardest of the hardcore. The Seven Scientists are neither. This 10-man group is entirely composed of real-life friends, and maintaining a tight-knit yet relaxed social fabric takes priority over progression. Despite that -- or as we'll see, perhaps more accurately because of it -- tackling new content without spoilers is simply the way they've come to enjoy throwing down together. Today's culture of PuGs sees a lack of preparation as a social faux pas, at best, or an offense worthy of guildkicks and pug-blacklisting, at worst. The Seven Scientists simply enjoy having a go at the content under their own steam -- no hairshirts, no lengthy rulesets, no pressure ... and all fun.
Main character NeminemGuild The Seven Scientists
Realm Runetotem (US)
15 Minutes of Fame: What exactly is "spoiler-free" or "blind" raiding?
Neminem: Knowing before entering the wing that Sindy is a giant bone dragon: fine (though by no means required). Knowing that Sindy is considered a hard fight: fine. But if you heard, before we offed her, that Sindy's final phase starts at 35%, and you have to spread out the ice blocks and then stand behind them while tanks swap frantically, you'd want to keep that to yourself until it became clear through actually getting there and seeing it.
We didn't even know the goal of Valithria was healing to full, until we triggered it the first time! And I wasn't there the first time we killed the LK, but I'm sure the reactions to "phase" 4 were amusing.
And do you tackle all the new content like this?
Nobody cares if you Google for information on quests while you're leveling -- nor, for that matter, on 5-man content. Leveling is what you do so you can start raiding, and 5-man content is the grind so you can get badges ... I mean, emblems ... I mean, justice points.
I personally avoid any spoilers on the new zones more detailed than their names and location, 'cause I want it to feel new and exciting when I get there ... But it won't stop me from Googling vaguely-defined quests I get, which I'm sure exist in quantity, like always.
How did you get started raiding with no spoilers in WoW?
If you mean how I did, specifically, well ... This is the only guild I've ever been in, and I couldn't really imagine leaving as long as it stays active. I didn't join specifically because we raid sans spoilers -- in fact, it was rather a surprise to me -- but I have come to enjoy that unusual aspect of our raid, once I got used to the idea.

For one, it makes downing a boss more satisfying, knowing that it was entirely the work of the guild, not half us, half random guys we don't know telling us how to do it. For another, it makes that first pull of a new boss way more epic, not going in knowing exactly what it's going to do. (Often subsequent pulls, too, on bosses that change by week or that have multiple phases).
Sometimes we come up with unique strategies, too, which is always fun to hear, especially if they make the fight easier than the "traditional" strategy everyone uses. For instance, I gather most people kill the adds in the Magmaw fight. I see our strategy made it to the wiki eventually, but puggers are always surprised by our have the DK kite all the adds the whole fight strategy we came up with, anyway.
Finally, I'll admit, it appeals to my laziness a bit. Reading up on strats, watching a bunch of videos, memorizing all the names of everything and what people say to do sounds more like a job than a game. I'd do it, but I'm just as content not to.
Do you use any addons or tools to help you analyze the encounters as you do them?
I don't use it that much myself, but I know we do run a World of Logs log so we can look at fight mechanics if we've gotten stuck on something.
Tell us a little about how DBM fits into the picture.
We use it, because it's just too convenient once we do know the fights. We could turn it off for new fights (and probably would if it were a huge spoiler source), but it's designed for people who've already read spoilers and know what they're doing. It mostly just calls out things we could see on our own, just making them more obvious. And it announces everything by default; you have to know what's important before you can customize it to only tell you things you care about.
Without context, it generally only tells you that a boss's cast is important, not generally why -- so about as much useful information as the in-game text of raid achievements, but still a second such source, if you want to call that "cheating." (Notable example: the number of adds spawned by Maloriak so far. Why was that important? That was for us to figure out.)
Do you ever turn to outside resources for help when progression gets stuck?
I try really hard not to. I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I broke down and cheated once, in a minor way, when we were stuck on the opening of the LK fight. I figured there was something we were missing, and there was -- that the DoT jumped to the nearest unit, not the nearest opponent. I checked the wiki for that, but I'm not proud of it. (T7S doesn't know that yet, but they will soon, if you publish that fact.) If anyone else has cheated, I wouldn't know, but it's certainly not something we do as a matter of course.

It certainly requires knowing what your chosen class can do well and a bit of creativity, to make suggestions of how you might be able to best help: kicking something? CCing an add? Slowing stuff? Spellstealing? I come from a DPS perspective, but I'm sure the tanks and healers have fun with that as well.
As well, it requires a bit of additional awareness while learning the fight. While running your rotation and doing the usual stuff, you have to try answering questions: When did the phase transition? Percentage? Time? How much HP did those adds have, and how many of them, and can we avoid them spawning? What did that spell do, and can you avoid it? Most importantly, though, it requires having a group that likes each other enough and has sufficient patience to wipe repeatedly. 'Cause you will. You'll wipe 10 seconds into the fight, group back up, then wipe 10 seconds into the fight again. ... Which just makes it that much more satisfying to get the first phase down after some practice, only to go HOLY CRAP WHAT JUST HAPPENED and wipe again as soon as phase 2 starts. (I'm looking at you, Chimaeron. And, you know, Mimi, Yogg, and the LK.)
Time for a progression update!
Well ... We got Cho'gall closer ... He hasn't died yet, sadly, but I feel like it's as much as gear check as anything else. We haven't quite perfected the three bosses in the main room in BWD yet, so while they haven't failed to die in a while, we also haven't had any time to learn Nefarian yet. And one of these days, I'll actually get to see the Throne fights. (We were going to go tonight, but everyone got suddenly busy at the last second, and we didn't feel like pugging half a group. There are benefits to having a small raid guild, but there are downsides, too.)
Which Cataclysm raid boss has proven to be the most difficult nut to crack so far?
Ignoring the three we haven't really had a chance to touch yet, I'd say the boss that was the hardest to go from first pull to grokking all the mechanics would be Halfus, cause they cheated and made it different each week. Not to mention giving us a large number of options to try -- which dragons to free, how many to free, when to free them ... My understanding is we basically were forced to choose the same path everyone else takes, but it took a bit of trial and error to find it.
Cho'gall, of course, would be the obvious answer for the boss we've been most unsuccessful at killing, since we haven't yet -- but he has the excuse of being at the end of the instance, as well as being, I think, a bit gearcheck-y.

Magmaw. We've 9-manned it. Twice. (It's something to do while waiting for a tardy person to show up.) It felt difficult at first, being our refresher after not raiding for a few months while waiting for Cataclysm (and obviously, being used to being rather better geared), but thinking back, it didn't really take us all that long to figure out, and it's certainly been the cause of by far the fewest wipes since the first week. Omnotron, too, once everyone realized how to read their energy bars (I admit, I was the slow one there). Atramedes was pretty easy to figure out the strategy, but not so trivial implementing it perfectly; inversely, the twin dragons required a decent bit of time figuring out all the components but doesn't give us too much trouble once we did. And of course, BH hardly even counts as a raid boss, coming in a long line of such "bosses."
Let's talk about your perspective on the evolution of raid design from expansion to expansion. Has Blizzard's changing design philosophies changed the way you attack raids now, or has it made any easier or more difficult in certain regards?
Well, given the size of our raid, it's certainly made it more possible. I only started playing near the tail end of BC anyway, but I'm under the impression we didn't get to raid nearly so much pre-Wrath. Anyway, with Cataclysm, [Blizzard] made it even nicer for us, getting the same gear everyone else gets; we're all pretty happy about it. I haven't felt any significant distinction yet, though, between spading (from the jargon of my other favorite game, meaning "to figure out how stuff in the game works" -- I can't help but use it sometimes, it's such a fun word) a new fight in Cataclysm and spading a new fight in Wrath. There hasn't been any fight so far where the key to a phase was a single word on the text of a spell the boss cast (the LK fight) ... But there's still plenty of time for that.
Filed under: Raiding, Interviews, 15 Minutes of Fame






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Krystana Mar 10th 2011 2:06PM
More power to them...I think what they do is the best way to raid..having fun at the same time. I bet its a straight riot in vent. :) btw Im on Runetotem. go fellow runeys...
Brasso Mar 10th 2011 7:11PM
Darkshines of here just saying 'ello to fellow 'tot's!
Brasso Mar 11th 2011 12:54AM
Darkshines of [Hott Jerky Patrol Unit]. Doh.
Aymuhdroowud Mar 10th 2011 2:12PM
That's awesome, I wish I had sent in our guild for doing this, if I thought our guild doing that would get us this kind of recognition. The Herd of Stormscale US has been doing that since Ulduar and it's the only way to fly! Progression ranks are great, but they would mean a LOT more if so many fights weren't up on the PTR long before "progression" goes live. Also, what's the fun of playing a game if you're just going to follow a walk-through guide from lvl 1 onward?
ObiChad Mar 10th 2011 2:44PM
I was thinking the same. My guild, Chaotic Precision on Frostmane-US, did this for Wrath and we're doing it so far in Cata. Figuring out the strats as we go is just so much more fun and certainly gives you a sense of accomplishment.
namethe Mar 10th 2011 2:17PM
This seems pretty cool, but ultimately it is no more "creative" than raiding WITH strategies...for example, our raid group also came across the "have the DK kite all the adds the whole fight" strategy on our own...because we are constantly trying to figure out ways to make the strategies we see online work for US.
Like I said, seems cool...maybe I will convince our progression guys to try it when the new raid content drops :)
chocolatebunny Mar 10th 2011 2:19PM
I had a lot of fun during PTR ZA and ZG first time.Brainstorming,getting into fight being unknown and dont know whats going happen next makes more enjoyable.I bet these guys feeling same as i do like x5 as they doing raid.Goodluck to them :)
Firestyle Mar 10th 2011 2:21PM
Some of the best raiding I've ever done was this xpac in december in BwD before there were strats out. We had the pleasure of magmaw and omnitron before we saw published strats (clearly we didn't get first kills).
It was also enjoyable raiding without boss mods, it actually makes you think about timing and when to expect the next attack.
Moxxy Mar 10th 2011 2:22PM
Our guild has been doing this since Magister's Terrace was released and we spent a couple of hours sans strats clearing it. We were hooked immediately. Figuring out new encounters was like a fun puzzle.
I have a feeling our method of involving everyone in the process of creating and adapting to new encounters would be harder in 25 man guilds, but it suits our 10 man group (from Wrath on) pretty well. I think the general consensus is not only its fun, it engages all the players to learn not only the hows but the whys of each encounter.
quickshiv Mar 10th 2011 2:38PM
My guild also does this but we aren't much for raiding anyway. After about 5 wipes someone will break down and read a strat. This type of play stile is expected in DDO. When new content is released first run groups are formed. Of course those encounters aren't close to the complexity of wow.
evets25 Mar 10th 2011 2:42PM
This sounds awesome, I think I would enjoy this style of raiding immensely! I'm a very logical/analytic person, and my favorite part of raiding is the problem solving and planning strategy. The way these guys raid sounds like strategy planning on crack times 100.
Still, I think you see this type of thing with normal raid groups in that we still need to sit down and figure out a strategy that works for US. I can definitely see the appeal though.
Props to everyone that can pull this off!
lisapoisso Mar 10th 2011 2:53PM
Sounds like there's a good bit of interest -- let's get something rolling. If you're looking for a guild that does this OR you're a guild that does this and are looking for more players, drop a note to The Classifieds at theclassifieds@wowinsider.com. We'll round them up next week and hopefully help make a few connections!
Herman Mar 10th 2011 3:01PM
Woot! Props to the Kingdom of Loathing fans!
Trying to be ghetto when i'm clearly not.
rather well done chappies
Duts Mar 10th 2011 4:17PM
I see you rolling, on your Segway.
neminem Mar 10th 2011 6:48PM
Yeah! Go us! KoLers unit, or something!
(It's funny, cause I'm totally not a spade at all. I read the kolwiki like a madman. But there's something about *communal* spading that's way more fun.)
Herman Mar 10th 2011 7:36PM
well, back in the day i wrote up about half the article on the wormwood, the area you get into from the green pixie
Prelimar Mar 10th 2011 3:34PM
i love this. i wish their style was the norm, rather than the exception.
Socialcockroach Mar 10th 2011 9:12PM
Actually, at one time it sort of was. During vanilla, the community wasn't quite as sophisticated as it is now. Sure, you could pick up tips from Thottbott or Allakhazam every now and then, but it didn't compare to the wealth of information that is available now. Many guilds had their own ways of fighting bosses and it really was fun figuring out those bosses for the first time. I remember a sense of pride being with the guild on our first time downing those bosses, and while I did enjoy downing bosses from the later expansion packs, it some how didn't come with the same satisfaction that we figured it out ourselves.
Sky Mar 11th 2011 1:15AM
Sadly, it's more about getting the epics now rather than the raiding experience itself. Back before the badge system came out, we started from the first tier of BC and moved on. We had a goal in mind and that is to beat all the content.
Now it's all about the epics. Ever since Blizz decided to make raiding 'accessible' all people seemed to care about is ilvl and getting to the newest tier without experiencing the older raid content.
RobD Mar 10th 2011 3:56PM
We put a guild together that was going to do that back during BC. It was very fun to feel like you accomplished something on your own, until 'that guy' in the raid started 'suggesting' really detailed strats that turned out to be point for point right off the wiki.
I really hated 'that guy'.