Drama Mamas: How many chances should misbehaving guild members get?
by Robin Torres 
Mar 11th 2011 at 9:00AM
We talked about transgender bullying before, but there is no bullying going on here. Is there coddling? You be the judge.
Hi Robin, Lisa
Roughly three years ago, a "girl" joined our guild. She was under our 18+ limit, but we forgot to ask at the time of recruitment so afterwards, we told her to remain in the guild she would have to show mature behaviour. She's now 19.
Over the years, she has had her ups and downs. She acts out. She acts up. She smartens up. The cycle repeats. She has been warned her behaviour would have consequences. She has been demoted, promoted, demoted again.
I rarely become close to people in the game simply because I don't want to be attached on a certain level, but she reminds me so much of me when I was her age. Insecure, bullied, and very alone. The Internet, for me, brought me out of my shell and gave me the bravery to face the real world. I just worry she uses it as a crutch. I have encouraged her to move on from the Internet and do things in the Real World. Since then, she has improved in school dramatically and gotten a job.
I am so very, very proud of her. But she still sometimes regresses.
The other day, while I was offline, she and an officer - both who have never liked each other - got into it in guild chat. Her behaviour was decidedly worse so while the officer was privately reprimanded for bad behaviour, she was removed from the guild.
She came online and found the politely worded letter explaining why she was no longer with us and contacted me, very upset. She was crying. I know this because her reaction was so emotional and alarming I phoned her.
And she...is a he. A he who came out of the closet to me, the first person he's ever told. He wishes that he was actually a woman, but doesn't have any one to turn to. This breaks my heart that she has no one at all. We spoke a long time about that, and I reassured her we would still treat her the same, and it wouldn't matter. To us - all of us - it doesn't matter. I even joked the officer who disliked her would still dislike her exactly the same. Our guild app even has a button that says 'by clicking here, you confirm you are NOT a raging homophobe.' We're LGBT friendly. We've had homosexual people, transgendered people, and bisexual people in our guild. We have them in our guild NOW. And it doesn't matter.
Once she had calmed down and I had convinced her I was still her friend and it wouldn't matter to me and she was NOT a freak, I laid out some very severe hoops and restrictions for rejoining and re-invited her to join the guild. The next day, she told me it was like the world had been lifted off her shoulders, and she's trying to work up the nerve to tell her mom.
She also is very close friends with another guy in our guild. I have told her she should tell him the truth and he won't care -- though there's probably no chance of romance. I feel comfortable doing that because I know this fellow's step-dad recently separated from his mother -- to become a woman herself. Transgender issues aren't going to shock him or upset him.
I honestly believe now - with her big secret out and no longer eating at her, and with the threat of booting become 'real' - she will behave.
But the officer gave me a 'it's either her or me' solution, and when I wouldn't budge, left the guild. He did so without saying anything to the guild, which I appreciated. I was able to have a polite discussion with the guild that didn't lay blame on anyone, point fingers, or cause any extra drama. I don't dislike him. I'm sad, if anything, and hope our friendship continues. He has been such a wonderful asset to the guild and he'll be missed by everyone.
He accused me of giving this girl too many chances, and said I changed my mind on the booting due to her 'sob story.' And I can't lie. Hearing her so broken up and sad -- and witnessing her bravery in telling me the secret, her actual name, and letting me hear her voice (which being as there's been no gender reassignment work, is still male) did affect me. But I think I would have honestly let her back in for a final chance. Sometimes, you don't really realize the threat of action is true until action is taken.
My other officers are extremely supportive. Some agree she's had too many chances, but they don't disagree with my reasons for taking her back in the guild. They are very supportive of her and are waiting for her to come out to them so they can openly support her.
I suppose what I want to know here is if I am doing the right thing. I am doing the right thing taking her back into the guild, and choosing her over the officer? She has been here longer than he has, but she has caused minor drama incidents in the past with emotional outbursts. (Then again, I've been known to throw some major temper tantrums at times, and have to crawl back to my own guildies and apologize). Am I doing the right thing by encouraging her to come out to the rest of the guild? I'm really concerned about the advice I gave her about coming out to her family. She barely has any support from them now as it is, and I worry if she comes out and they turn her back on her, she will have no one...so I told her to wait until she had a safety net in case of the worst-case scenario.
I asked my mom, and she gave me the same advice -- but my mom, while not homophobic, doesn't seem to accept or understand LGBT issues as I do. So I guess it's time to ask the other moms.
Everything-confused, not gender-confused
Drama Mama Robin: Everything-confused, I don't think the teen's gender has anything to do with the guild situation. She misbehaved after several warnings and was rightfully gkicked because of this. The gender identity and issues she has to deal with because of it do not absolve her of treating others poorly. I'm not saying you shouldn't have given her another chance, particularly with all of the conditions you laid out. I am saying that you should have handled that re-invite differently. Your officers are there to back you up when you're not there. You need to have their back in turn.You said yourself that your guild is made up of tolerant, understanding people. Rather than re-inviting the misbehaving teen back into the guild behind everyone's back, you could have brought the option to your leadership. If you had stated the conditions -- made it clear that if the conditions weren't met, you would re-kick her -- and then brought the reinvite up for a vote, you might have been able to keep the disgruntled officer as well as given the teen another chance. You unilaterally made a decision that undermined one of your officers. I am impressed that he left without making drama, and I think he was right to leave.
As far as the coming out questions, my advice differs for each group. Since it is basically in your guild's charter to be tolerant, I think encouraging the teen to come out to the guild is a good idea. It's always better in a social group to feel you are all on the same level of honesty.
Coming out to her family is a whole other can of worms. As you said, she has no safety net. I think she really should focus on becoming self-sufficient and self-supportive before risking her home. I found what looks like an excellent guide to coming out to one's family that you may want to pass on to her. But even it warns that the guide may not be useful if there is a possibility of the family disowning her. What it comes down to is that the risk is all on her end, and she needs to make the decision to come out to her family herself.
I really hope that the teen uses this opportunity to change her behavior in a supportive environment. She'll have a better time with the world accepting her if she's treating the people in it with respect and maturity.
Drama Mama Lisa: Exactly so, Robin. This situation is a rat's nest of excuses -- and there's really no excuse at all for repeated bad behavior. At some point, even the youngest, most inexperienced and personally challenged among us must be held accountable for the way we treat others. This teen is no different. No matter whether she is happy or sad, male or female, supported or alone, under pressure or pulled together ... This pup has to keep her feisty temper and her tooth and claw to herself if she wants to run with the pack. That's simply the way groups work.Kudos to you for recognizing and being sympathetic to her issues; she's definitely got a lot on her plate! However, you're not doing anyone any favors by re-inviting a player who's proven to be incapable of controlling personal drama. Your responsibility here is clearly to your guild, to make it a place where members can play and socialize together in an enjoyable, compatible way. As much as you'd like to offer a welcoming guild home for this girl, she simply doesn't seem capable of playing nicely with the other kids in the sandbox.
This doesn't mean you can't support this teen through her issues. It sounds as if you and at least one other member have built some personal rapport with her; this is where to channel your concern. Hopefully, your relationship with her will allow you to clearly separate the issues of her record of misbehavior and subsequent guild removal with her personal issues. While you must firmly close the door on the former, you can certainly continue to offer support with the latter. With a little luck, she'll hear you out and be able to move forward. Be gentle but firm and supportive, and this can be an opening door for her rather than simply a closing one.
Editor's note: As usual, dissenting comments and questions will not be deleted. Even if we completely disagree with what is being said, the conversation that ensues is often very enlightening. Hate, however, will be deleted and probably banned. Don't be That Guy.
Dodge the drama and become that player everyone wants in their group with a little help and insight from the Drama Mamas. Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at robin@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 8)
Arrowsmith Mar 11th 2011 9:15AM
My older brother used to be my older sister, and two of my old roommates were a boy and a girl that wanted to be a girl and a boy. Good for this person for admitting who she really is.
As for doing the right thing, I am always a fan of charity, but I do agree that this could have been handled better. At the same time, it's very easy to get caught up in feeling bad for someone and throwing the world at their feet to make them happy again. heck, I've been there before. So, yeah, things could have and probably should have been handled differently, but at this point, what's happened has happened, and unless the Infinite Dragonflight tries to screw something up, just move on.
DPSwannabe Mar 11th 2011 4:46PM
I don't think that you should have a made a unilateral decision. Her behavior has affected and spilled out to the guild and she does so publicly. It doesn't matter that she has personal issues or confusions, it doesn't give her the right to create drama.
Our job as guild leaders is to maintain a quality atmosphere for our players. It's a game and it's where people go to relax and hide.
When we have drama or disagreement in guild, we immediately whisper the people involved and require them to use a private channel with each other or get on vent and hash it out.
My perspective is this. Would you accept that kind of behavior in a public restaurant or at a theatre? If not, then why do you accept it in game? She got the equivalent of being booted out of the restaurant and it's unfair to the rest of the guild to invite her back unless they agreed.
Xotzalqual Mar 11th 2011 9:28AM
This is a wonderful article because it reflects something that I see daily.
I agree that an unilateral decission to invite her back into the guild may not have been the best choice since being part of a guild is a bit like being in a democracy, and to avoid dissent it is important to include other people with authority in delicate matters such as these. Even with the firm limits that you stated to her, the end-all is that at the last moment she was rescued from the natural consequences of her behavior through your actions. Daily I encourage parents to allow their teens to feel the sting of natural consequences to disabuse them of the pervasive belief that they can do anything and everything will turn out alright. Yes, I have even adviced parents to allow their children to go to juvenile detention if the behavior is severe enough.... however...
I think that it's easy for us adults to think of children as little adults... with the same mental faculties as we have, just shorter. As it turns out, the brain does not finish development until around age 25 on average. It is at this time that the frontal lobes of the brain, the ones we use daily for abstract reasoning and allow us to make difficult choices under duress, finishes growth. Before that growth is finished, the teen brain is almost nearly incapable of making those sort of positive choices under emotional duress. When calm, a young person can make grown-up, responsible decissions, but once anger, depression, excitement, or other strong emotion comes into place, rational goes out the window. That is not to say that no teen can do it, only that on average this is what is observed. With all that said, imagine how much more challenging this must be for a transgender child.
The point I'm trying to make is that if you are guild leadership and you choose to accept or allow a younger person to remain in your guild, it is important to remember that these sorts of clashes are likely to occur. In that case, focus should be on making amends when they have calmed down... and yes, on allowing natural consequences to take their toll as they encourage the development of a sense of causality.
So, my thought on this situation is that since she has already been allowed back into the guild, then keep a keen eye on her actions. Keep her demoted and allow her to earn her way back into other member's good graces, but expect that if ever she becomes emotional again in game, you may very well see a repeat of what happened... she may not be able to help it yet.
Torr Mar 11th 2011 3:27PM
I completely agree with this assessment.
My guild is one of only a handful of bigger guilds on our realm that allow younger players to join, Min age is about 10, however one of our raiders(MM hunter) is the the GM's 8 year old son...and one of our warriors is another members 6 year old son, so there are exceptions to that rule, however usually their parents are watching them closely. On top of that, because we allow younger players to join our guild, our officers are held to a strict PG rating of guild chat, and if anyone is violating that rule, they are quietly asked to shut up. Which is not to say there isn't any dirty or slightly non-PG chat, its just usually kept as inside jokes, so those that don't understand them don't quite get exposed to stuff like that. Officers are also held to a standard to not pick fights with anyone, and if they DO get into a fight, and the GM or second in command are not on, then the other officers/ranking members need to rein that person in, and remind them that doing so is not appropriate behavior for someone of their authority. However if the GM and second in command are on...they get sharply reined in, and usually suffer a reprimand(NOT a good thing BTW) or get demoted(depends on the behavior). I have only seen 1 officer demoted because of fighting with a person(warlock on warlock argument about best spec), and after my several attempts to rein the officer in, the GM's wife told the GM to get on...and things got ugly for him fast. He behaved badly, and got what was coming to him. The officer mentioned in the E-mail may have had a problem with re-inviting the member, no matter how he was approached by it, and his authority being challenged, even by someone who had such power, could have every easily been the primary factor in his leaving. Some people, when given authority, bask in it and believe it cannot be taken away or challenge by anyone.
@Everything-confused: My guild is also LGBT friendly, I am gay and I hold a decent standing in the guild hierarchy, something that actually gets us a bit of heat from other guilds on the realm(1 major one specifically), so having someone like her in a understanding environment within the guild might actually reduce drama if she can feel open about it. Take it from me, bottling up that kind of stress can be fairly harmful to you, and one of the most common ways to handle such stress is to rage/cry about something, anything, and transfer that pressure into your drama. This is something to try and avoid at all costs, even if you are having a beef with someone, you need to keep your emotions and reactions under control, otherwise you will go off the deep end VERY quickly. Tell that to her, also tell her things get better.
MattKrotzer Mar 11th 2011 9:30AM
That video makes me want to gkick someone.
And I don't know what to say on this one... I definitely feel the writer of the letter got put behind the proverbial 8-ball and caved a bit due to emotional concerns. It happens. However, the girl in question has shown numerous times to be a problem, so I hope she expects to be on a short leash, and hope that the officers won't coddle and overlook future problematic behavior just because of all of this.
Its sad to lose an officer over it, but that's the sort of thing that happens when you throw down ultimatums. If someone in my guild throws down an ultimatum, they're going to lose, regardless of whether or not they're right. You just don't do that.
messiahxi Mar 11th 2011 9:45AM
Seriously... Could Tori Amos be more pretentious?
Netherscourge Mar 11th 2011 10:57AM
Um - Tori Amos performed Smells Like Teen Spirit in memoriam for Kurt Cobain in concert the day he was found dead.
MattKrotzer Mar 11th 2011 10:58AM
Doesn't make it sound any better.
Kim Mar 11th 2011 2:04PM
I believe the misuse of ultimatums have resulted in your negative attitude towards it. I do not believe all people who use ultimatums are like "a toddler and throwing a tantrum to get your way." We use ultimatums everyday to protect ourselves and to make people rationalize. Couple of quick ultimatums that I've heard alot in college is "If you drink and drive, I will not ride with you." or "If you do drugs at the party, I will not go with you." I do believe those to be a legitimate reason to use ultimatums.
I've have used an ultimatum on the GM when he tried to make a quick decison that would tarnish our name and went against our core principles and beliefs. So, I told him I would step down as an officer because I did not want the rest of the guild to think that I backed the decision and tarnish my name. In the end, the GM reconsidered after holding an officer meeting and found out that 5/5 of the other officers felt the same way. Now our guild is stronger for it, and the GM respects me for standing up for what I believed.
If used properly, you can make someone realize that their actions do have consequences and to think about the situation more. All situations are rarely black and white.
messiahxi Mar 11th 2011 2:10PM
Did she also record it and release it on EP 2 years prior to his death for the same reason? or was *that* simply because she's pretentious?
MattKrotzer Mar 11th 2011 2:18PM
Perhaps I should have specified I meant the "her or me" type of ultimatum.
vocenoctum Mar 11th 2011 8:21PM
Actually, I'd have to say the ultimatum made perfect sense. The officer and this person had an altercation, this person has a history of misbehaving. This person was kicked from the guild because of it and then was let back in after yet another sob story. There is no penalty for this person.
The ultimatum was "I don't want to be in a guild with this person", when this (assumedly) reliable OFFICER was told that the other was once again staying with no real penalty, the officer politely left the guild without making a scene or anything.
If the Officer had written in, from their point of view, everyone in the comments would be saying "go ahead and leave the guild, it's obvious the leadership is arbitrary in their rules and doesn't appreciate your input" or somesuch.
ersiusp Mar 11th 2011 9:40AM
The officer that left was right. If this kid can't play well with others, you need to keep him out of your sandbox. For the good of your guild you can't let the reasons why he isn't playing nice stop you from removing him. Even if all the transgender issues are legitimate, they're being used as a smokescreen by this guy so he can act like a jerk repeatedly.
MattKrotzer Mar 11th 2011 10:09AM
I don't care if he was crowned "King of Being Right," when you issue an ultimatum, you completely forfeit your position, in my opinion. It's basically like being a toddler and throwing a tantrum to get your way.
Were I the officer who wrote the letter, even had I not been planning to readmit the girl in question, as soon as ultimatum came, I'd have said, "Actually, it's neither of you," and gone about my business without them. Especially from an officer, drama like that is inappropriate.
mossygreen Mar 11th 2011 10:35AM
I can't even believe that after reading this post, you're calling her a guy. She's a girl, jackass. It's because of people who talk the way you do that she has all those emotional issues in the first place.
Umbralwrath Mar 11th 2011 11:04AM
@ Matt
While I can agree that ultimatums are usually a childish method of getting one's way, I feel I have to disagree with you here to an extent.
I'm not a fan of the ultimatum, but I have issued a few in my life. Not because I was "right" or believed myself to have the moral high-ground, but because it simply came down to "this behaviour needs to change or I can't stand to be around here anymore". The writer of the letter admitted this girl's behaviour was far worse then the officer, perhaps he was feeling harassed or simply tired of the conflict and felt it would be better to make a quiet exit then have to deal with the drama any longer.
Not saying that as a fact, just that we don't have his side of the story, so it's hard to say what was really going on there or what the conflict was concerning.
As for the girl in question, kudos for having the courage to tell someone and to try to better your life. However, if your behaviour is that disruptive, try to find a way to reign it in before you ruin your standing with what sounds like a very nice and supportive guild.
(cutaia) Mar 11th 2011 11:12AM
"I can't even believe that after reading this post, you're calling her a guy. She's a girl, jackass. It's because of people who talk the way you do that she has all those emotional issues in the first place."
I say this coming from the point of view of someone who couldn't care less what people do with their sexuality, but:
I'm honestly confused about this thought. I mean...the person IS still a male, isn't he? According to the letter, he wishes he were a woman -- and that's fine as far as I'm concerned -- but does that really make someone a jackass for not automatically referring to this wish as a reality? It seems a bit over-sensitive to be upset about that.
Accipeter Mar 11th 2011 11:31AM
Cutaia, it's perfectly understandable to be confused about the difference between biological sex and gender identity if you aren't too familiar with these issues. I'm not terribly up on trans issues myself, but I do know that there is a distinction to be made. Yes, this person's sex chromosomes are XY, and that isn't going to change. She will always be biologically male. However, psychologically, she identifies as female. Her self-perception and her biological sex don't match up.
Personally, I think the easiest and most respectful thing to do is to refer to somebody with the pronoun by which they say they prefer to be referred. After all, if somebody tells me they prefer to be called "Jane" even if the name on their birth certificate is "Moonflower," who am I to argue about what their name really is? Out of common courtesy, I'll use the one they tell me they prefer. See? Easy?
Transkaren Mar 11th 2011 12:06PM
Accipeter has it right. Gender is mental, sex is physical. When referring to a trans person, always use the pronouns of the presented gender - or, if they aren't present, the chosen gender.
I'm trans myself, so I understand it more than most. Nothing irritates me more than hearing myself referred to as "he/his", "sir", "man", "guy", etc. Not that you'd know it by the way that I act most of the time, but it still hurts.
Orkchop Mar 11th 2011 12:14PM
Accipeter has it right.
View someone's choice of pronouns the same as you would their name. If they say their name is Bill, would you insist on calling them William? If you were talking to someone in person, I could understand confusing and being uncomfortable using the opposite pronoun. But in text it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
Cutaia was right, though, in saying we shouldn't start throwing names around because people don't understand how gender identity is more of a scale then a binary.