Shifting Perspectives: Balance druid talents and the illusion of choice

I often wonder how many people still remember beta. I mean, people will sometime reference beta now and again, but I often wonder how many people really remember everything that even just their own class or spec went through. For balance, one of the larger issues that we had was one of talent choices. The talent spec then was excessively bland. There was no choice, no variation, only the single option.
Balance has changed since then -- quite a great deal, in fact -- yet how much of a choice is there within our talent choices? How much of a difference does choosing the "right" or "wrong" talents really make in our performance? There are lots of variables to choose from, but how much of them are actually a choice and how much of them aren't truly an option?
Talents that help mana regeneration
The core of our talents really focuses on one thing: mana regeneration. To a certain degree, we have 13 talents that influence our mana regeneration. Some of them double as DPS talents that simply aren't a choice: Euphoria and Heart of the Wild. The remaining options are all just that -- options. Furor, Moonglow, and Dreamstate are all optional; you don't have to have them in order to be viable (at least, to a certain degree).
While leveling and first gearing yourself at 85, you will need nearly all of the mana regeneration talents in order to sustain yourself for an encounter. After you've gotten a bit of raiding gear, you can start to drop points from different spots.
First, you can start by switching out points from Furor and/or Moonglow into Blessing of the Grove to increase your Moonfire damage. The increase isn't all that much and certainly isn't noticeable during a single-target encounter, but it really adds up when you are doing the Moonfire AoE spam dance.
After that is where things get tricky. There are no additional real DPS talents for you to choose from. At this point, the only things you can drop mana regeneration for are Perseverance, Gale Winds, or Owlkin Frenzy. Perseverance is a great talent for reducing incoming damage, and I would strongly suggest taking it should you be able to afford the loss. Neither Gale Winds nor Owlkin Frenzy provide any tangible benefit.
Balance druids do not use Hurricane, and Typhoon isn't used for damage but mostly for the knockback on adds. The increased Cyclone range is useful but again not very PvE-centric, given that Cyclone is more of an "OH NOES" CC than a standard one. Owlkin Frenzy is rather hit or miss. As with every case in which someone tried to prove the talent useful in Wrath, it can all depend on the encounter in question.
Owlkin Frenzy only procs from attacks that specifically target you, not AoE-based abilities, which is actually very misleading wording. As an example, Chim's Slime ability hits multiple targets, but each individual bolt is targeted to a specific player so it will proc OF. That being said, I've used OF for that encounter, even on heroic when you get hit by each and every volley, and not gotten any procs. I also used OF on what's currently my highest heroic Chim parse but only had it proc once the entire encounter; the second highest didn't have any OF procs. It simply isn't a reliable source of damage.

Owlkin Frenzy, Perseverance, Gale Winds ... all of these sound like choice. They're not. Aside from Perseverance, neither of the other talents have any significant impact on the druid. If there's no statistical difference between having a talent and not, then what's the point of it?
There's limited variation between balance specs now simply due to the disparity in gearing levels. Come next raiding tier, these won't exist. Every balance druid will have to run 31/0/10. You could argue that some balance druids might favor two points in Owlkin Frenzy over Moonglow, and that indicates choices -- but when there's no discernible difference between the performance of either spec, those two talent points are meaningless.
Why choice matters
I am certain that some people will take this entire rant the wrong way. I am not advocating that balance druids need additional DPS talent options for their talent points; I am saying that our talent choices actually need to make a clear and noticeable difference in our characters.
While playing my warlock, I actually end up having a wide array of choice in how I will spend several of my talent points. When going affliction, the first nine talent points are all spent on DPS-improving talents, while that next talent can go toward some form of utility. Within the next tier, only three of the five talent points can be used to increase DPS; again, I must pick up some functional utility. In total, affliction ends up spending around 8 talent points on utility.
It's not that balance doesn't have utility to pick up; it is more that what limited utility we have isn't worth anything. What's the point of having Gale Winds in a PvE spec? How often are you really going to find yourself using Cyclone? And how many of those times do you need to have the additional range? What does Owlkin Frenzy do? A vast majority of PvE encounters cannot even proc the effect, and the few that can don't offer enough procs to make the talent by any means "useful."
Our "utility" choices come in a different sort and do not really seem that functional. After investing 18 points in the balance tree, druids are first faced with having to choose a non-DPS talent. Usually, these default to Solar Beam and Typhoon. After that, at 23 points invested, you have two additional "free" talents to pick up; then, again you have another two points to invest into utility, after picking up Lunar Shower. Finally, after putting the required eight points into restoration to get all of the DPS talent, we have another two free talents. So what's the problem?
Simply lacking
The primary issue that balance faces is the lack of distinction among choices. We can get Typhoon. We can get Solar Beam. And those are great things to have. After that ... we have nothing of consequence. We have four points of "utility" that must be spent in the balance tree and two points that can be spent anywhere, yet there's just not much to spend them on.
Starting balance druids have to spend four "free" balance talents in mana regeneration to get Dreamstate and Moonglow, but once you reach a high enough level of gear, you simply don't have a use for those talents anymore. Euphoria provides all the mana regeneration that you need.
Of our utility talents, the only one which any argument could be made for is Fungal Growth, yet it is still considered to be an abysmal talent. The issue with Fungal Growth is that it provides a clunkier version of the baseline abilities brought by two other classes. If you don't have a hunter or a shaman, then yes, Fungal Growth is fantastic; with either of those classes present -- note that's classes, not specs -- then Fungal Growth has virtually no use at all.
What needs to change
The largest issue that balance druids have in this regards is twofold. First, too many of our secondary talents focus on mana regeneration. We have Euphoria, Moonglow, and Dreamstate all in the balance tree -- seven points worth of talents. While great for leveling, possibly PvP, and early gearing levels, Moonglow and Dreamstate quickly become outdated with gear. We saw this in Wrath with Moonkin Form, and everyone was saying that we'd see it again this expansion. You cannot balance a spec around scaling mana regeneration and expect it to need to same amount of investment at early levels as later levels.
When mana regeneration is no longer needed in order to sustain the DPS cycle required for an encounter, then what is the point of having it? So that we can have spare mana to "waste" on healing? I'm not saying that these talents need to be removed nor changed; they are still useful for the time in which you need them, after all. What I am saying is that these talents cannot be considered as choices. Either you need the mana regeneration -- and thus, they are not "optional" talents -- or you don't need the mana, and they are worthless talents. There is no middle ground.
The second issue is that balance still has a few outdated talents from Wrath that were never updated to work in the current expansion. Owlkin Frenzy and Gale Winds don't have a point any more -- and frankly, Owlkin Frenzy never had a point to begin with.
Gale Winds does so little for balance druids. The only reason to take the talent is to increase Cyclone's range, and even in PvP, the 4-yard extension isn't that amazing. If feral and restoration druids are working fine without 4 measly yards, why would you think that balance would suddenly find Cyclone to be phenomenally better with it? The damage increase to Hurricane is simply laughable at this point. Hurricane is far too expensive and the damage was never balanced around other AoE spells for this to be worth it.
Hurricane was balanced around the factor of Solar Eclipse, which is simply absurd to begin with. In essence, the spell is utterly dead -- there just isn't a point to it anymore -- so tacking on a damage increase to our talents is just silly. No druid was using Hurricane in beta; why did Blizzard keep this talent?
Balance druids don't need additional DPS talents; they need additional utility talents. We don't have awesome defensive talents that other specs see in their utility, things like Siphon Life, Nether Ward/Protection, Selfless Healer, and many more -- dual talents that can function to increase our survivability in both PvP and PvE. Survivability is still balance's weakest point right now; we are simply crushed by other players.
A large factor in this is that we have so few talented defensive abilities. The only things we actually have in the balance tree are Typhoon and Solar Beam -- interestingly enough, the two things that nearly every balance druids takes. Instead, balance has to rely entirely on the base druid tool kit, and that's hurting us. It hurts us in PvP, and it gives a significant lack of choice in PvE talents.
Utility is not about trading damage for nifty little bonuses anymore; it's about the neat things that you can pick up alongside your damage increases. Balance just doesn't have any of that, and we need it. We are given talents to play around with in our talent spec, yet it makes absolutely no difference where we put these points. We can get additional mana regeneration when we're already finishing encounters with 75% mana ... We can get a damage-increasing proc that never actually procs -- and doesn't function as its supposed to in PvP anyway ... Or we can get a damage increase on a spell we never use. What's the point in all of these talents?
Why do we have so many talents that either become outdated with gear or don't actually do anything at all? The balance tree is still the same mess that it has always been. We have a few scattered, ridiculously powerful talents with utterly worthless talents providing filler. Can we find a compromise between the two? Can all of our talents actually provide something useful to us for a change?
Filed under: Druid, (Druid) Shifting Perspectives






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Talothan Mar 11th 2011 4:10PM
No spec has any significant choice in talents. In fact, no spec has /ever/ had much choice in what talents to take. I don't see what the big deal here is.
The Dewd Mar 11th 2011 4:22PM
It sounds to me like the problem is that mana regen talents aren't useful so you could run with a less-than-full tree and still function the same.
Pyromelter Mar 11th 2011 4:38PM
"I don't see what the big deal here is."
See my post below, but here's a tl;dr - there is a competing game that gives people a helluva lot more choice in their talent building, and it's a helluva lot more fun than wow's talent trees, where you robotically fill in the no-brainer talents without even thinking about it for a millisecond.
Tyler Caraway Mar 12th 2011 7:34AM
I disagree completely.
Many specs actually have a wide array of talent choices that have quite a large impact on their utility and how they function.
Fire is a pretty good example of this. On an encounter where there will be AoE damage, you know that you want to pick up Impact and Pyromaniac. If there won't be enough targets to proc Pyromaniac, or there won't be at least two targets to allow for Impact to be useful, then you can switch those points out into something such as Cauterize, or you can adjust a point over into Improved Blink if you need to kite something, or Invocation if you know you'll be interrupting.
Just as an example, Fire can be a pretty useful at kiting on Atramedes if you don't have any of the traditional kiting classes. Pick up Blazing Speed and Molten Shields with at least one spare point put into Improved Blink. You can use Mage Ward to proc Blazing Speed if the breath catches up to you -- allowing you to escape it -- and Improved Blink will allow for a much longer kiting time. You only lose Impact and Pyromaniac in doing this -- and one point in Arcane Concentration if you go 2/2 Improved Blink instead of 1/2 -- which doesn't contribute a DPS loss on this encounter because there aren't multiple targets.
Narayana Mar 11th 2011 4:17PM
I've never played a druid, but I think this issue applies to many specs. Blizzard had two routes available to it when trying to get away from cookie cutter builds:
1) Implement so many GREAT talents that a player literally can not have them all
2) Supplement great talents with a large collection of βmehβ talents
It seems like in many cases, they chose the latter. While this surely gets you to a point where you have β10 points to spend wherever,β this approach also gets you to a point where most players could care less about those points.
The Dewd Mar 11th 2011 4:27PM
I wish they had chosen #1. I think they want to do that. They keep indicating that they'd like us to be able to making meaningful choices with our trees (though the EJ analysis will, of course, result in a "best" build).
The problem with #2 (the other problem, that is) is that it's never "oh, I have 10 talent points play with". It's "well, I guess I need to put a couple of points in this tier to get to the next one" a few times and then you have, maybe, 2-4 points to play with at the end.
Druids might not be the best example because we have no real choice for our secondary tree. If you don't pvp, you're either Balance/Resto, Resto/Balance, or Feral/Resto due to talent synergies. I'd almost rather they shrink the trees some more and make Feral/Balance or Balance/Feral an interesting choice because of added utility.
TL;DR: Blizz really needs to come up with some more interesting choices.
Tyler Caraway Mar 12th 2011 6:36AM
I agree, and it isn't so much that I think I need something in those filler spots that will increase my DPS or drastically increase my raid utility; it is more than I want those points to matter.
Aside from my balance druid, I spend a great deal of time playing a warlock. Generally, I play as destruction, although affliction is my preferred spec. As destruction, I have to spend some talents on things which don't really increase my DPS at all. For that, I pick up Nether Ward, which allows me to block any type of spell damage instead of just shadow damage. I also get Nether Protection so that I continuously take reduced spell damage. I get Shadowfury, which isn't "amazing" in PvE situations, but being able to temporarily stun a large pack of adds after the tank has picked them up is decently useful, and the spell is great during Cho'gal. And then I get Shadowburn, which isn't used in a normal DPS rotation, but I can choose to use it on the move to proc a rather decent self heal and restore some mana. Finally, if we don't run with an aff warlock or an unholy DK, I can pick up Jinx and have an AoE CoE.
Affliction is much the same way. I can pick up Siphon Life which provides a noticeable amount of self-healing. And I can get Jinx which is amazingly useful for AoE burn phases. I could pick up CoEx for if I need to kite something.
These secondary talents feel useful to me, because they are useful. They may not provide a huge increase in my DPS, they may not be the key reason to bring me to an encounter, but they're there and they do make a difference.
I could get Gale Winds, but I don't use Typhoon nor Hurricane for damage, so I would never notice that it was there. I can get Owlkin Frenzy, but when it doesn't even have a chance of procing on a majority of raid encounters, what good is it doing me?
I'm all for "spare" talents that aren't for DPS, but these talents need to have a real and tangible impact on your character. The balance talents just don't do this.
leumas Mar 11th 2011 4:21PM
I use typhoon, a lot. Glyphed though to remove the knockback, which reduces its usefulness in PvP, but makes it quite useful in PvE.
Tyler Caraway Mar 12th 2011 5:41AM
Why? In theory, if you have Gale Winds then a glyphed Typhoon might be worth the damage on an AoE group, but it would be a very minimal gain over Wild Mushroom or Sunfire/Insect Swarm.
An unGlyphed Typhoon is highly useful on a number of PvE encounters that deal with adds, so if you do plan on running with it, then I would suggest at least carrying around some dust so that you can drop it for encounters such as Magmaw and Cho'gal.
Chokaa Mar 11th 2011 4:28PM
Prot warriors have the former, where there's so many great talents you can't get them all!!
Probably took all the development time and blizz was like 'screw this, lets juat force cookie cutters on em!'
Pyromelter Mar 11th 2011 4:34PM
"I am certain that some people will take this entire rant the wrong way. I am not advocating that balance druids need additional DPS talent options for their talent points; I am saying that our talent choices actually need to make a clear and noticeable difference in our characters."
I have to agree with you here tyler, and I'm not sure if this was brought on by "that other game," but that other game right now is displaying a massive difference in talent builds with wow, and frankly it is a LOT more fun than wow's talent builder.
4 classes who can pick 3 specialties out of 9, and within each of those, most trees having 51 total talent points. And oh by the way, you can have 4 different talent setups.
Frankly, wow's talent builder isn't fun. There is very little to play around with, and it doesn't really take much thought. I know the devs made it this way because they didn't want groups to look at someone and be like "wtf noob your talents are the suck," but it made it a lot less fun overall by removing all of what they call the "boring" talents.
"Balance druids don't need additional DPS talents; they need additional utility talents."
I think balance druids along with all classes could use both more dps and utility talents - not passive abilities though, ACTIVE abilities. I feel like this would require a very large re-design of the talent system however, and I doubt blizzard will do that having just recently revamped the system to begin with.
Pyromelter Mar 11th 2011 4:42PM
http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html - play around with the talent builder here if you want to get a feel for what I'm talking about in the post above.
BTW, I'm not fanboy'ing rift - I'm merely opining that it's talent system is REALLY really really fun, and that I feel it exposes wow's talent system as a significant weakness in it's game design. And I know a lot of people will be like "Well pyro, you know people are going to theorycraft maximum possible dps from every class and spec" and while that is true, the point here is that there are so many awesome choices, you can easily create a talent build that is viable even if it isn't "maximum dps."
Harvoc Mar 11th 2011 4:46PM
This is probably the 3rd time I've responded to one of your comments that advocate Rift's talent system. Again, I dislike Rift's system because of the many boring talents their trees have. The talents that resemble the ones that were taken away in patch 4.0.1 from WoW. Sure, they have many activated abilities, but they seem mostly the same to me. And if you mean they're more fun because it's impossible to get all the damage-increasing talents in all three of your trees, then I guess it's fun to you. But not really to me.
Narayana Mar 11th 2011 4:57PM
Meh. Have you toyed around with RIft's talent trees? Sure, they look different than WoW, but functionally they aren't all that different.
Pyromelter Mar 11th 2011 5:06PM
agree to disagree harvoc. It feels like choice to me, even if that is just an illusion, it's still more fun. Also, a lot of the "boring" talents in the first tier of rift trees are similar to the "increase crit by 3%" that you get in the first tier of wow trees. I flatly just don't agree that the deeper talents are the ones that match the pre-4.01 wow talents, there are many more active abilities or abilities that change how spells interact with things when you cast them.
Pyromelter Mar 11th 2011 5:08PM
Nara, my point is I find it fun to think about how to spec a character in a game. I think it's interesting to sit there and play with talent builds. In wow now it feels like once you click on "balance," as your main specialization, blizzard might as well fill in those 31 points for you because there really isn't any thought or decisions to be made there.
Kryj Mar 11th 2011 5:53PM
You've lauded the multiple active abilities in 'that other game's' talent system, which is true...but should also consider that all abilities characters get are through the talent trees (and roots). It is interesting, not least because of being able to set up synergies between different specs, but the talent system also functions as the basic class ability system.
And even then, there's repeated abilities (especially baseline skills) among multiple specs.
My problem with Rift's system is that it's gonna be almost impossible to balance properly, unless it's set so that all specs/combos are viable, in which case we're back to the illusion of choice rather than meaningful choices.
Saeadame Mar 11th 2011 7:22PM
Random RIFT question - is there a way to turn off the camera bobbing thing? I think I get motion sickness from it. That was actually the main reason I stopped trying out RIFT, more than anything. If you can't play a game for more than 5 minutes without having to go lay down to settle your stomach, it kind of puts a damper on your ability to play it. I don't think I'll ever leave WoW, but I did want to see a little more of the game.
The talent trees were a little too confusing for me, though. Like, why does it sometimes not let you advance up one tree unless you put points in another?
Bapo Mar 12th 2011 12:20AM
"My problem with Rift's system is that it's gonna be almost impossible to balance properly, unless it's set so that all specs/combos are viable, in which case we're back to the illusion of choice rather than meaningful choices."
wat? If all the combos were viable, there would be a choice, since you could play the combo spec you wanted, rather than- playing a warrior who is a Paragon/Champion/Riftblade/Beastmaster (I'm using an example, Idk if this is even a set in stone option, I know warlord is another option). and that's not even saying you'll get all abilities or talents, so you do have a choice on what you want to take, there isn't a cookie cutter build to my knowledge (I haven't done any digging on that yet).*
@Saeadame
Idk about the camera bobbing, there should be a way to turn it off
And as for the talent thing, I think it has to do for lowlevel balance, they want you to explore the 3 different builds combined, rather than going all in one tree, and ignoring the other 2 - 3
*- I am extremely tired, so I could be wrong and misread your entire statement, so I apologize sorta
Tyler Caraway Mar 12th 2011 7:58AM
I have not played Rift, and I probably never will.
The only comment that I can make about the game is that their system seems to be a little too complex from a balancing stand point. While not impossible, the wide array of options and limitation on control will make balancing highly difficult.
More so than balancing, the system just doesn't seem as one that is easy towards new players. After a specific point within a talent tree, you are no longer gaining DPS talents, but instead are picking up utility talents in order to unlock the higher level abilities. So long as they can find a balancing between the damage of the higher investment abilities and only going X into one tree and then splitting points between two other trees to pick up specific DPS increasing talents; balancing won't be an issue. And you would then have a system wherein a player's investment into the game won't drastically impact their usefulness. Meaning that if they don't spend vast amounts of time reading theorycrafting and guides, they could theoretically just toss all their points into one tree or split their points up and still be remotely viable. That's an excessively tall order though, especially given the vast amounts of choices in the game.