Ghostcrawler blogs about raid progression

Ghostcrawler discusses how there is a fine line between too easy and making the raid game feel shallow, as people want and expect a challenge but don't want to grow more and more frustrated over time as the tier of raiding winds to an end. The sweet spot, according to GC, is making it feel like every raid group can make some kind of progress.
One very interesting point that Ghostcrawler makes is about encounters nerfing themselves over time, as people learn new strategies, disseminating those strategies amongst the player base, as well as UI mods. Making specific mention of UI mods lends to the overall theme that the UI is moddable for a reason. Also, as we have suspected, Blizzard does like to nerf content slowly over time so that accessibility continues to be the name of the game.
We addressed our views on dungeon difficulty several weeks ago, and in the interim many players have asked for us to comment on raid difficulty.
I chose to use the word "progress" in the title for this blog quite intentionally. We think progression is the key to players having fun. When groups stop making progress, the members get frustrated. When individuals feel like they are stuck, that's when they start to lose interest. I don't think it strictly has to do with the flow of loot being shut off. A big part of it is the sense that as you climb up that mountain, you are getting closer and closer to the summit instead of just sliding back down to base camp at the end of each day.
Let's consider two extremes. If you complete the raid content very quickly and have Sinestra on farm and everyone has acquired their best in slot items, then you're probably ready to take a break from raiding. If you worked really hard to get to that point, as many of the current "finished" guilds did, then you're probably pretty happy about resting until Firelands becomes available. However, if that break point happens too soon, too easily, for too many guilds, then the raiding game can feel empty. Players run out of content before they are ready to run out of content, if that makes sense. Now let's consider the other extreme, where a guild just has no realistic chance of ever beating a boss. This can be particularly demoralizing if it's the first boss, but it can happen at any time. That guild might not feel like they are making progress. Many guilds are willing to put in a few weeks trying to master a new encounter, but if it gets to the point where they are wiping for months, there's a good chance they'll start to see burnout and thinning ranks. The sweet spot in raid balance for us to hit is that everyone feels like they can still make progress. Content that is too hard or too easy doesn't meet that goal.
Raid encounters, to some extent, nerf themselves. This is because every week, the raid members acquire more and more gear. Secondarily, the community acquires more and more knowledge and experience, which translates into better videos, strategy guides, or even UI mods, as well as just more players who have experienced the encounters firsthand. Each week that you are able to kill any bosses, your group's gear improves overall, through Valor points if nothing else. When Firelands is available, everyone's gear will quickly take a step up in quality. This will give you an even better chance to beat those bosses that are blocking you now. We wouldn't be surprised to see some guilds try the first few Firelands bosses one night, while using the next night to go back to get the head and shoulders from Nef and Cho'gall in order to complete their set bonuses, that is until acquiring new set bonuses becomes feasible. On some bosses, though, better armor and weapons may not be enough because some mechanics just can't easily be outgeared. To mitigate that problem, our tendency is to nerf content over time just to make sure a wide variety of players see it. The trailblazers get to see the fights before anyone else, but we don't lock the dungeon door behind them.
Having said all of that, there are some encounters that still need adjustment. Heroic 10-player modes can often be the hardest to balance, because those groups just don't have access to the sheer number of tools in one group that the larger raids have. You've probably seen some hotfixes go out recently and we might make more adjustments in 4.1. We'll continue to monitor progress and make adjustments when we feel the time is right.
Overall, we are pretty happy with our current raid balance. Most guilds that are trying seem to be making some progress. On some realms, we're seeing pickup groups for at least the earlier bosses, which seems appropriate for where we are in the content cycle. The Heroic versions are particularly challenging, though even in that case, there is a gradient with easier and very difficult bosses. For those of you who feel like you are stuck on progression, we'd like to hear more about why. Are you trying to PUG the encounters? Do you have a very casual guild with a lot of different players each night? Is the problem that you're undergeared or that the mechanics are too unforgiving? What are the mechanics that are really hard for raid leadership to explain or even understand? Are your tanks exploding, or are your healers running out of mana, or are you failing the berserk timers? We have data on all of this, but it's useful to hear it from your point of view as well. Remember, our goal is that you beat the fight because you understood the mechanics and executed your tanking, DPS, and healing around those constraints. If you're just kind of powering through a boss ability or phase that you don't really understand, then it's going to be a lot harder for you. As always, feedback on which encounters you are enjoying and which ones you never want to see again is also appreciated, though we've gotten a lot of that already, and are designing your Firelands foes with that in mind.
P.S. I am as excited about the Firelands encounters as I am about the current ones. We can't wait for you to wipe to them, er... see them.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer of World of Warcraft. He wipes to the elevator boss.
I chose to use the word "progress" in the title for this blog quite intentionally. We think progression is the key to players having fun. When groups stop making progress, the members get frustrated. When individuals feel like they are stuck, that's when they start to lose interest. I don't think it strictly has to do with the flow of loot being shut off. A big part of it is the sense that as you climb up that mountain, you are getting closer and closer to the summit instead of just sliding back down to base camp at the end of each day.
Let's consider two extremes. If you complete the raid content very quickly and have Sinestra on farm and everyone has acquired their best in slot items, then you're probably ready to take a break from raiding. If you worked really hard to get to that point, as many of the current "finished" guilds did, then you're probably pretty happy about resting until Firelands becomes available. However, if that break point happens too soon, too easily, for too many guilds, then the raiding game can feel empty. Players run out of content before they are ready to run out of content, if that makes sense. Now let's consider the other extreme, where a guild just has no realistic chance of ever beating a boss. This can be particularly demoralizing if it's the first boss, but it can happen at any time. That guild might not feel like they are making progress. Many guilds are willing to put in a few weeks trying to master a new encounter, but if it gets to the point where they are wiping for months, there's a good chance they'll start to see burnout and thinning ranks. The sweet spot in raid balance for us to hit is that everyone feels like they can still make progress. Content that is too hard or too easy doesn't meet that goal.
Raid encounters, to some extent, nerf themselves. This is because every week, the raid members acquire more and more gear. Secondarily, the community acquires more and more knowledge and experience, which translates into better videos, strategy guides, or even UI mods, as well as just more players who have experienced the encounters firsthand. Each week that you are able to kill any bosses, your group's gear improves overall, through Valor points if nothing else. When Firelands is available, everyone's gear will quickly take a step up in quality. This will give you an even better chance to beat those bosses that are blocking you now. We wouldn't be surprised to see some guilds try the first few Firelands bosses one night, while using the next night to go back to get the head and shoulders from Nef and Cho'gall in order to complete their set bonuses, that is until acquiring new set bonuses becomes feasible. On some bosses, though, better armor and weapons may not be enough because some mechanics just can't easily be outgeared. To mitigate that problem, our tendency is to nerf content over time just to make sure a wide variety of players see it. The trailblazers get to see the fights before anyone else, but we don't lock the dungeon door behind them.
Having said all of that, there are some encounters that still need adjustment. Heroic 10-player modes can often be the hardest to balance, because those groups just don't have access to the sheer number of tools in one group that the larger raids have. You've probably seen some hotfixes go out recently and we might make more adjustments in 4.1. We'll continue to monitor progress and make adjustments when we feel the time is right.
Overall, we are pretty happy with our current raid balance. Most guilds that are trying seem to be making some progress. On some realms, we're seeing pickup groups for at least the earlier bosses, which seems appropriate for where we are in the content cycle. The Heroic versions are particularly challenging, though even in that case, there is a gradient with easier and very difficult bosses. For those of you who feel like you are stuck on progression, we'd like to hear more about why. Are you trying to PUG the encounters? Do you have a very casual guild with a lot of different players each night? Is the problem that you're undergeared or that the mechanics are too unforgiving? What are the mechanics that are really hard for raid leadership to explain or even understand? Are your tanks exploding, or are your healers running out of mana, or are you failing the berserk timers? We have data on all of this, but it's useful to hear it from your point of view as well. Remember, our goal is that you beat the fight because you understood the mechanics and executed your tanking, DPS, and healing around those constraints. If you're just kind of powering through a boss ability or phase that you don't really understand, then it's going to be a lot harder for you. As always, feedback on which encounters you are enjoying and which ones you never want to see again is also appreciated, though we've gotten a lot of that already, and are designing your Firelands foes with that in mind.
P.S. I am as excited about the Firelands encounters as I am about the current ones. We can't wait for you to wipe to them, er... see them.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer of World of Warcraft. He wipes to the elevator boss.
It is an excellent read. Also, I'm glad that Ghostcrawler is back -- we missed you, crab.
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm has destroyed Azeroth as we know it; nothing is the same! In WoW Insider's Guide to Cataclysm, you can find out everything you need to know about WoW's third expansion, from leveling up a new goblin or worgen to breaking news and strategies on endgame play.






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
jfofla Mar 18th 2011 7:10PM
LOVE Ghostcrawler!!!
The people that are offended by him are the entitled vocal minority.
GC speaks for the silent majority
Dan Boden Mar 19th 2011 2:39AM
vocal minority: anyone the poster doesn't agree with.
Al Mar 19th 2011 4:25AM
Naturally, Dan, because there's a simple two-sided majority/minority distribution amongst 12 Million people.
Unless jlofa meant Blizzard were the silent majority, which I guess is true.
Toggle Mar 19th 2011 6:00AM
People don't like him because he's a person on which to outlet their frustration. He makes a great figurehead for the company.
Its sad really. This level of rapport with the company is pretty much unheard of. We took a gift horse from blizzard, looked it straight in the mouth, and screamed obscenities and insults at it. And now, Blizzard is taking their horse back.
lethian Mar 22nd 2011 8:44AM
i agree with this comment Gc is the fall guy tbh i got the pet BECAUSE i generally like what the says. he takes the flack for the entire design team i don't see how that would be easy given how a lot of the posters on his posts are nasty to him people need to grow up
Junior Mar 18th 2011 7:22PM
Where's the part about Ghostcrawler wiping to the elevator boss.
My friend directed me here to see it for myself.
Alex Ziebart Mar 18th 2011 7:55PM
Added. ;)
Baba Mar 18th 2011 7:58PM
The very last sentence... :P
Garthix Mar 18th 2011 7:23PM
I have no idea why anyone has a problem with him he seem to always talk complete sense
This post pretty much describes how I feel raid progress goes and in icc they even gave you up to a 40 percent buff to make sure you finished :-)
MusedMoose Mar 18th 2011 7:35PM
An excellent read. I think having this design philosophy behind the game is part of what makes WoW so great - goals become more achievable with time, so if you're willing to put in the time and effort, you can do everything you want even if you're not the hardest of hardcore. As GC said, those who are the most dedicated will get through the higher-tier content first, but it's not like *only* a select group will ever see it. And considering that everyone, from "I just log in to fish and chat" to "I maxed my Valor Points on December 7th" pays roughly the same amount for the game, it's great that everyone has a chance to see all that the game has to offer if they want to.
Also, as jfofla said, GC really does speak for the silent majority. Would that this majority would speak up more often, so that the official boards don't make it look like WoW's population consists mostly of people who hate the game and/or Blizzard. ^_^
SamLowry Mar 19th 2011 11:02AM
"When groups stop making progress, the members get frustrated. When individuals feel like they are stuck, that's when they start to lose interest."
Such truth, GC. Because my friends-n-family guild is effectively dead, waiting, just waiting for better gear to hit the badge vendors so we might actually have a chance of earning ANY VPs.
Alacran Mar 18th 2011 7:47PM
The source link??? wow.com is a shopping site or something thanks a lot.
Alex Ziebart Mar 18th 2011 7:55PM
Fix't.
jfofla Mar 18th 2011 8:01PM
Source Link worked for me.
Sleutel Mar 18th 2011 8:16PM
Note that this is an EU address, so it looks like those of us who play on U.S. servers won't be able to comment on that blog. "No game licence was found. Please add one under your account."
Sleutel Mar 18th 2011 8:17PM
Aha! Found the link to the U.S. version, if you want to comment and that's where your game is licensed:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2452061#blog
Jari Mar 20th 2011 8:27AM
...if it gets to the point where they are wiping for months, there's a good chance they'll start to see burnout and thinning ranks.
This happened to my guild back in the Blackwing Lair days. Once we hit Vael, the guild went downhill from there. Vael separated the raiders and the loot-whores, which caused too much drama.
We had downed Ragnaros a few times, so we decided to mix things up by start running BWL. It took us about 3 weeks to down the first boss, Razorgore. Then we tried Vael and wiped for about 4 weeks, never getting close to downing him.
What started to happen, on our MC farm nights, we easily had 40 people show up. It was free epics at this point, and most of the raiders had everything they wanted from the place. Onyxia nights was the same thing. 40 people showed up, downed her fast for easy epics, and left.
So we scheduled a BWL attempted after Ony one night. 40 people showed up for Ony, and when we said "let's go to BWL now", we had 18 people leave the raid. Everyone had an excuse why they couldn't go.
That was the last raid our guild ever did.
Tim Mar 18th 2011 9:05PM
Hmm...
"Many guilds are willing to put in a few weeks trying to master a new encounter, but if it gets to the point where they are wiping for months, there's a good chance they'll start to see burnout and thinning ranks."
This line makes me sad, because it means blizzard is ok with groups wiping for weeks on one encounter.
MusedMoose Mar 18th 2011 9:50PM
There's only so much that Blizzard can do. It seemed like one of GC's points was that if a raid group learns the strategies, gets itself properly equipped, and learns to work together, they should be able to take down the raid bosses after a reasonable number of attempts. They want to make the raid content accessible, but still challenging. If a group wipes for weeks on one encounter, especially an encounter that other groups have passed, then maybe the problem isn't the encounter.
j Mar 18th 2011 9:52PM
The fact that you want to blaze through every boss makes me sad. GC addressed this in his post. You don't appreciate something you don't have to work for.