Ghostcrawler returns to the conversation, talks about hit and expertise on tanking gear

This is great news for the community -- we'll have more of an insight into the design decisions happening at Blizzard, understand better why folks like Ghostcrawler are making the choices they are, and no doubt get that mystical pony.
The main point about Ghostcrawler returning, as written by him, is:
Ghostcrawler
When we started these blogs, the idea was to foster developer communication to the players without some of the inherent problems of posting in forums. Some players have pointed out recently, and we totally agree, that the blogs up until now have been from a very high vantage point. We looked for topics with universal interest that would feel important and newsworthy. That has worked overall, but we also feel like we've lost something from when I used to be down in the metaphorical trenches talking to players in the forums.
So we're going to try something a little different. We're going to unleash some blogs that are much more conversational and less proclamational (that's a word now). If we deliver on this, it will hopefully feel like you're eavesdropping on our design meetings. You won't always learn a lot about exciting new features coming to the game, but you will (ideally) learn something about the design process itself. (When we have big, exciting news to share, or 'State of the Game' style blogs, we'll still do those as well.)
So we're going to try something a little different. We're going to unleash some blogs that are much more conversational and less proclamational (that's a word now). If we deliver on this, it will hopefully feel like you're eavesdropping on our design meetings. You won't always learn a lot about exciting new features coming to the game, but you will (ideally) learn something about the design process itself. (When we have big, exciting news to share, or 'State of the Game' style blogs, we'll still do those as well.)
Ghostcrawler's full post, along with all the tanking discussion, after the break. And for the record, his post is titled "Coffee with the Devs." Just remember, he likes gin in his coffee (although what kind, we don't know ... yet).
Ghostcrawler
So how is the view from way up here? It's great actually -- we're really happy with how Cataclysm is going so far, and we have big surprises on the horizon. On the other hand, there are details you can see at ground level that you can't make out from 10,000 feet.
When we started these blogs, the idea was to foster developer communication to the players without some of the inherent problems of posting in forums. Some players have pointed out recently, and we totally agree, that the blogs up until now have been from a very high vantage point. We looked for topics with universal interest that would feel important and newsworthy. That has worked overall, but we also feel like we've lost something from when I used to be down in the metaphorical trenches talking to players in the forums.
So we're going to try something a little different. We're going to unleash some blogs that are much more conversational and less proclamational (that's a word now). If we deliver on this, it will hopefully feel like you're eavesdropping on our design meetings. You won't always learn a lot about exciting new features coming to the game, but you will (ideally) learn something about the design process itself. (When we have big, exciting news to share, or 'State of the Game' style blogs, we'll still do those as well.)
But to pull off this more casual blog style, let's establish a few ground rules:
1) No promises. I'm going to be talking about a lot about things we might do or things we could do. You shouldn't interpret this brainstorming as patch notes. Our creative process is insanely iterative. We might pitch dozens of ideas before we find one we like. That can be really exhausting if you're not used to it. If you're more interested in final decisions and not idea churn, then this style of blog won't be for you.
2) Don't read too much between the lines. I'm going to point out a lot of design flaws in our game. "Oh no! Goatcaller admitted WoW was deeply flawed! It's shark-jumping time!" Look, Blizzard is very critical about our own designs. There is virtually nothing in World of Warcraft that could not be improved. That has always been the case and will continue to be the case. Just because I'm going to be sharing that more frankly with you doesn't mean that the game now has more cracks in its foundation than it ever did. There is an old saying (misattributed, from what I understand, to Otto Bismarck) that laws are like sausages; it is best not seeing them being made. My old friend and mentor Bruce Shelley used to apply the same maxim to game design.
3) No complaints about the topic. If we didn't have an interesting discussion about a topic recently, e.g. shaman mechanics, I'm not going to invent one. That doesn't mean that the class is perfect, or that we don't love shaman players, or that the shaman class has no direction, or that the class design is frozen in carbonite. I'm not going to keep hash marks next to every class and spec to make sure I've covered their "Very Important Issues" lately in a blog. World of Warcraft design being what it is, we'll probably eventually get around to talking about everyone on here, but it may take weeks or months or years. My team is responsible for areas of the game including classes, items, encounters, trade skills, achievements, combat, and UI, so my blogs will probably stick to those topics.
Okay, all that preamble is out of the way now. I'll probably refer back to it sometimes, if we have some players stomping all over the ground rules.
One topic we've been discussing lately is the role of Hit and Expertise on tank gear (or more precisely, plate tanking gear). The conventional wisdom is that Hit and Expertise are threat stats, and you may need to swap them out with some of your mitigation stats depending on the situation. Realistically, unless you severely overgear the content, we don't think that is actually true. Tanks almost always worry about survival first and foremost, which totally makes sense, and are willing to trade off threat stats for better mitigation in almost all situations. It's much harder to progress if the tank explodes than it is if the cat occasionally pulls aggro. (It's not quite that simple, but I'm going to gloss over details and exceptions since I spent so much text on the preamble up above).
Once upon a time, taunts could miss, and so Hit was marginally more interesting than it is today. Once upon a time, having a boss parry your attacks could speed up its swing timer, which turned Expertise into a (often weak) survival stat. Boss parries felt very random though, both in the sense that sometimes the tank would suddenly take much more damage than anticipated and there was no easy way to know which bosses had parry speed up. (Today, you can assume none of them do.) Until recently, interrupts could miss, but asking a tank to stack a bunch of Hit just for those few opportunities when they were probably going to hit anyway but disaster would occur if they did not felt crummy too.
The problem is that there aren't a lot of stats that are interesting to tanks. Stamina and Armor are great, but their stat budget is often in lockstep with item level. (It would be interesting to consider if we could make that not the case once again, but that's the topic for another blog.) We got rid of Defense as a stat that tanks needed to worry about. We have managed to make Mastery pretty good to excellent for tanks, so that's at least one stat they like to see. Dodge and (if you're a plate-wearer) Parry are good, and slightly interesting because of talents like Hold the Line. But beyond that, it starts to go downhill. Sure Haste and Crit can sometimes be fun, but really they often aren't worth the trade off. That leaves us with Hit and Expertise. We'd like to make them more interesting to tanks. But how?
One way is by turning them into defensive stats. They are defensive stats for Blood death knights, because the DK self-healing is tied into Death Strike, which can miss. It might be possible to do something similar for the other classes. Imagine if Shield Block had to actually hit the target. Presumably you raise your shield, but not high enough to intercept the incoming blow. Now hit becomes a mitigation stat for warriors as well. We might have to adjust the mitigation amount on Shield Block or give warriors a small Hit bonus so Hit capping wasn't totally unreasonable, but you get the basic idea. You could do the same with paladins (make Holy Shield more interesting?) and druids as well (Savage Defense could proc on a hit).
Is this a good idea? We're not sure yet. You won't see this change in the 4.1 patch for certain. There are trade-offs to making Hit and Expertise more valuable. Gearing as a tank might be more fun for experienced players, but it also might be more challenging for less experienced players. The number of struggling tanks in your Dungeon Finder groups might go up. Some less knowledgeable players (and to be fair, this stuff doesn't exactly explain itself on the character sheet) might stack Hit way too high at the expense of a more valuable mitigation stat, such as mastery.
It is the kind of thing we're talking about though, and if you want to make a contribution to the tanking forums but aren't quite sure on a topic, here is one potential possibility.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer of World of Warcraft. He still has Buru's Skull Fragment.
When we started these blogs, the idea was to foster developer communication to the players without some of the inherent problems of posting in forums. Some players have pointed out recently, and we totally agree, that the blogs up until now have been from a very high vantage point. We looked for topics with universal interest that would feel important and newsworthy. That has worked overall, but we also feel like we've lost something from when I used to be down in the metaphorical trenches talking to players in the forums.
So we're going to try something a little different. We're going to unleash some blogs that are much more conversational and less proclamational (that's a word now). If we deliver on this, it will hopefully feel like you're eavesdropping on our design meetings. You won't always learn a lot about exciting new features coming to the game, but you will (ideally) learn something about the design process itself. (When we have big, exciting news to share, or 'State of the Game' style blogs, we'll still do those as well.)
But to pull off this more casual blog style, let's establish a few ground rules:
1) No promises. I'm going to be talking about a lot about things we might do or things we could do. You shouldn't interpret this brainstorming as patch notes. Our creative process is insanely iterative. We might pitch dozens of ideas before we find one we like. That can be really exhausting if you're not used to it. If you're more interested in final decisions and not idea churn, then this style of blog won't be for you.
2) Don't read too much between the lines. I'm going to point out a lot of design flaws in our game. "Oh no! Goatcaller admitted WoW was deeply flawed! It's shark-jumping time!" Look, Blizzard is very critical about our own designs. There is virtually nothing in World of Warcraft that could not be improved. That has always been the case and will continue to be the case. Just because I'm going to be sharing that more frankly with you doesn't mean that the game now has more cracks in its foundation than it ever did. There is an old saying (misattributed, from what I understand, to Otto Bismarck) that laws are like sausages; it is best not seeing them being made. My old friend and mentor Bruce Shelley used to apply the same maxim to game design.
3) No complaints about the topic. If we didn't have an interesting discussion about a topic recently, e.g. shaman mechanics, I'm not going to invent one. That doesn't mean that the class is perfect, or that we don't love shaman players, or that the shaman class has no direction, or that the class design is frozen in carbonite. I'm not going to keep hash marks next to every class and spec to make sure I've covered their "Very Important Issues" lately in a blog. World of Warcraft design being what it is, we'll probably eventually get around to talking about everyone on here, but it may take weeks or months or years. My team is responsible for areas of the game including classes, items, encounters, trade skills, achievements, combat, and UI, so my blogs will probably stick to those topics.
Okay, all that preamble is out of the way now. I'll probably refer back to it sometimes, if we have some players stomping all over the ground rules.
One topic we've been discussing lately is the role of Hit and Expertise on tank gear (or more precisely, plate tanking gear). The conventional wisdom is that Hit and Expertise are threat stats, and you may need to swap them out with some of your mitigation stats depending on the situation. Realistically, unless you severely overgear the content, we don't think that is actually true. Tanks almost always worry about survival first and foremost, which totally makes sense, and are willing to trade off threat stats for better mitigation in almost all situations. It's much harder to progress if the tank explodes than it is if the cat occasionally pulls aggro. (It's not quite that simple, but I'm going to gloss over details and exceptions since I spent so much text on the preamble up above).
Once upon a time, taunts could miss, and so Hit was marginally more interesting than it is today. Once upon a time, having a boss parry your attacks could speed up its swing timer, which turned Expertise into a (often weak) survival stat. Boss parries felt very random though, both in the sense that sometimes the tank would suddenly take much more damage than anticipated and there was no easy way to know which bosses had parry speed up. (Today, you can assume none of them do.) Until recently, interrupts could miss, but asking a tank to stack a bunch of Hit just for those few opportunities when they were probably going to hit anyway but disaster would occur if they did not felt crummy too.
The problem is that there aren't a lot of stats that are interesting to tanks. Stamina and Armor are great, but their stat budget is often in lockstep with item level. (It would be interesting to consider if we could make that not the case once again, but that's the topic for another blog.) We got rid of Defense as a stat that tanks needed to worry about. We have managed to make Mastery pretty good to excellent for tanks, so that's at least one stat they like to see. Dodge and (if you're a plate-wearer) Parry are good, and slightly interesting because of talents like Hold the Line. But beyond that, it starts to go downhill. Sure Haste and Crit can sometimes be fun, but really they often aren't worth the trade off. That leaves us with Hit and Expertise. We'd like to make them more interesting to tanks. But how?
One way is by turning them into defensive stats. They are defensive stats for Blood death knights, because the DK self-healing is tied into Death Strike, which can miss. It might be possible to do something similar for the other classes. Imagine if Shield Block had to actually hit the target. Presumably you raise your shield, but not high enough to intercept the incoming blow. Now hit becomes a mitigation stat for warriors as well. We might have to adjust the mitigation amount on Shield Block or give warriors a small Hit bonus so Hit capping wasn't totally unreasonable, but you get the basic idea. You could do the same with paladins (make Holy Shield more interesting?) and druids as well (Savage Defense could proc on a hit).
Is this a good idea? We're not sure yet. You won't see this change in the 4.1 patch for certain. There are trade-offs to making Hit and Expertise more valuable. Gearing as a tank might be more fun for experienced players, but it also might be more challenging for less experienced players. The number of struggling tanks in your Dungeon Finder groups might go up. Some less knowledgeable players (and to be fair, this stuff doesn't exactly explain itself on the character sheet) might stack Hit way too high at the expense of a more valuable mitigation stat, such as mastery.
It is the kind of thing we're talking about though, and if you want to make a contribution to the tanking forums but aren't quite sure on a topic, here is one potential possibility.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer of World of Warcraft. He still has Buru's Skull Fragment.
Filed under: News items
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 5)
N-train Mar 23rd 2011 3:23PM
For Christ sakes, you've got the lead designer spending his time to explain his thought processes to you purely to keep you informed.
I personally appreciate the effort they put into these kinds of things, even if they give fairly vague answers or don't give out as much information as I would like. It's better than nothing, so stop complaining.
ToyChristopher Mar 23rd 2011 9:08PM
I like ghostcrawler, even though he doesn't understand holy paladins. I used to love interacting with him on the healing forums.
However, I can understand why people have the above reaction. In this blogs it's easy to misconstrue him as a jerk. I think it's just his writing style.
quickshiv Mar 23rd 2011 2:55PM
he likes gin in his coffee (although what kind, we don't know ... yet).
This is a guess but I would go with Bombay Sapphire. Anything better would be a waste in coffee.
Krytture Mar 23rd 2011 3:51PM
if you going with that idea, may as well grab some Aristocrat
SaintStryfe Mar 23rd 2011 4:03PM
Beefeater? No, I don't think so...
Prelimar Mar 23rd 2011 4:22PM
Bombay isn't the best, but it's still a waste to dump it in coffee *blargh*
Silversol Mar 23rd 2011 6:12PM
Hmm, I was just under the impression that he drank gin out of a coffee mug straight. Just so it *looks* like he's drinking coffee.
Magic Mar 23rd 2011 3:18PM
As a tank I'm confused by this conversation from the Devs. With the painful shortage of tanks in-game why would they desire to add more 'challenges' to the class regarding gear and stat-balancing? Is there an in-game reason for the devs to be worrying about this? I would like to see less barriers to tanking, not more.
[ forgive the generalizations I'm about to make... ]
Tank - Stam, Str, Dodge, Parry, Mastery, Hit, Expertise (7)
DPS - Primary, Secondary, Mastery, Crit, Haste, Hit (6*)
Heal - Int, Spirit, Mastery, Crit, Haste (5*)
* everyone needs haste/crit, but most classes only stack one of them
Why not make tanking more accessible, not less. If devs want to discuss tanking, let's discuss how to get more people interested in tanking. Keep the hit/expertise on gear sets at a 'good enough' level to keep the barrier to entry low. The advanced 'raid' tanks will continue to read the elitist jerks spreadsheets and juggle stats for high-end content.
Weighting stats so tanks feel pressured to cap hit/expertise over other stats, compared to just hit for most dps, and nothing to cap for healing feels unnecessary. Tanking has never felt boring, but it does sometimes feel like a burden given the demands made of your time since there are few players that are willing to tank (and do it well).
I'd like to hear a conversation from the devs about making tanking more appealing to a broader player base. I recognize a lot of what makes tanking unappealing is the negative actions of other players. Surely the Blizz developers can find a tool or mechanic to offer enough positive reinforcement to counter-balance the negative impact of other players.
Ilmyrn Mar 23rd 2011 3:42PM
I'm not really sure what Blizzard CAN do to make more people want to tank, outside of actually giving tanks in randoms a larger reward, which would be blatantly unfair, and encourage people to game the system for the reward whether they're geared, knowledgeable, or what.
Tanking, like healing, is a mindset, and while there will always be people willing to bite the bullet and tank or heal for their guild/raid/group of pals, from my experience, the number of tanks has seemed pretty stable over the years.
That said, I'd like to see threat stats mean something again, and I'll be interested to see what Blizzard does about this.
VSUReaper Mar 23rd 2011 3:44PM
Your right, tanking isn't boring if its just you, a single dps, and a healer. Toss in 2 more DPS, and all 3 will start to hit the first thing their beady eyes fall on.
If you want to eliminate the barriers that new tanks have, then the new tanks need to tank in a bubble, or else Blizz needs to make the 5 mans so easy that someone in DPS gear can do it (as long as they spec for tanking).
Honestly, I have been tanking for around 6 years now, and I have never felt the desire to play a DPS spec as much as I do right now, and the whole reason why is the DPS. They either cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag or else they just charge in their blindly, hitting the hardest hitting aoe move they have. This is especially true for warriors and DK's.
Ever wonder why those 3-4 specs die so fast? Its because they run in as the tank is still gathering, hit a CD (Death wish for fury) and then hit everything that they can at once (DND/Howling blast for DK's, rend+t-clap+sweeping strikes+bladestorm for arms, ww+cleave+normal attacks for fury) and then bitch and whine when they are dead.
They are not the only ones at fault mind you. When I zone into an instance, I have a macro I have to hit, and it says this:
If I bother to toss up a mark, then it means I want you to pay attention to it. If its a {moon}, {triangle}, {square}, then its a CC and I will let you know what I want you to do to it. If its a {skull} or {cross}, then I want the skull killed first. Please do not ignore the marks.
You would be shocked and appalled at how many people ignore the marks... and the skull almost dies last...
If you want to make it easier for tanks to learn, then take the stupid out of the instances. If that means you only run with guildies, then so be it, but LFG only feeds the stupid players and its the rancid attitude that the tank gets from the other 4 people if he makes 1 tiny mistake that makes experienced tanks not want to do anything with the LFG system unless they have to.
Twineagle Mar 23rd 2011 4:47PM
Instead of providing an extra reward for tanking, provide better tools. Allow a tank to select an option when queuing up to have an interface that provides hints/instructions for each dungeon. These hints could be as simple as before each boss, a tooltip pops up outlining key boss mechanics. Another tool could be for the raid symbols to auto populate over the mobs in trash pulls indicating a kill order and or crowd control options. I believe that the greatest barrier to new tanks is the fear of screwing up and getting called on it.
I know that I would appreciate this kind of help. Heck, I would even be willing to pay a penalty to have these features provided (say fewer justice point/valor points). Removing these barriers would then allow less experienced/newer tanks to focus on tanking the mobs and not having to also learn the party coordination skills that seem to be required to tank in WoW.
Enkylanos Mar 23rd 2011 5:01PM
"Tank - Stam, Str, Dodge, Parry, Mastery, Hit, Expertise (7)"
Except that Strength is fairly incidental, and Stam (and Armor) are just based on the ilvl of the gear. And you don't (as a Warrior anyway) worry about Hit and Expertise. So you just worry about Parry/Dodge/Mastery (Stam comes naturally on gear). Get your mastery as high as humanly possible, then balance your Parry / Dodge. Other than trinkets (and prioritizing Dodge/Mastery pieces over say Dodge/Expertise pieces), there aren't a whole lot of choices to be made.
Stilhelm Mar 23rd 2011 11:55PM
I don't understand the "fear of making a mistake and getting called on it". I've been tanking for 3 years in WoW, and I still make mistakes occasionally, and when I do, I call myself on it in party chat. If someone has a suggestion or idea on how to do a boss differently, I'll evaluate it and potentially try it. Regardless of your role, you should always be willing to listen to others, no matter what the tone of delivery is, and fairly evaluate any new idea. Sometimes the ideas aren't worth anything, sometimes they are. In addition, regardless of role, everyone should be evaluation their own performance to see what they could do better.
Anony Moss Mar 23rd 2011 3:18PM
Are these blogs only being done for eu players? The link is to an eu post and us posters can't post on it.
omedon666 Mar 23rd 2011 3:46PM
I know this isn't going to be a popular angle, but, to copy paste from another post I made on this subject, and to add more...
I just read the blog, and my prevailing thought was:
"Wait... There are tanks that DON'T cap ability hit and expertise to 0% for the level of content they are doing?"
Folks, if reforging into hit and expertise is too big a "sacrifice", you need more reforgeable points to work with, ( ie: better gear) or to step down a notch of content. I've felt for some time that peoples' sense of urgency with this raid tier was getting ahead of them, maybe this is an indication.
A tank with "raid levels" of avoidance that misses a level 85 mob 5% of the time isn't a raid tank, he's a normal mode 5-man tank who is in over his head in a raid. I'm not saying these tanks suck, but they are padding their survivability (one of their responsibilities) at the expense of their threat (their other, equally prevalent, whether you admit it or not, responsibility).
They've said countless times that vengeance wasn't meant to be your one stop answer shop for threat, and would not replace inevitable and intended "threat gearing" IE: hit and Expertise.
Vengeance does jack squat in the first few crucial seconds of a pull/fight, and if you open with a "whiff", then look at your miss percentage... that is the percentage chance that you need more time (which translates into healer mana) before the fight can "truly begin".
Do it Blizz. Tie hit/exp to survivability, But at least put some of it on our gear. It's incredibly unintuitive right now with these stats largely missing on our intended hear.
(yes I know the "rules" of these blog posts, I'm speaking hypothetically as if this were to be a direction to actually see the light of day)
Peli Mar 23rd 2011 4:00PM
I won't argue that hit and expertise have their uses, but when you take into account the Vengeance mechanic, their value plunges RAPIDLY as the amount of damage you take rises (i.e. in raid content). In today's current game environment, with the mechanics behind taunt, if you're reforging out of mitigation or avoidance to get more threat, YOU are the one doing it incorrectly.
If you whiff your first, hit, simply TAUNT, and you've got yourself 6 seconds of worry-free threat generation and vengeance stacking time (plenty of time to get a few hard hitters down and secure aggro).
Peli Mar 23rd 2011 4:02PM
Finger slipped on the numpad... "6 seconds of worry-free threat" should read "3 seconds of worry-free threat".
snuf42 Mar 23rd 2011 4:08PM
That used to be the common thinking, but hit/expertise capping on tanks is no longer needed. Take a look at one of Paragon's tanks:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/lightnings-blade/lazeil/simple
Full clear of all raid content on heroic, hit rating 87, expertise 0.
Elitist jerks comments on this:
"You are welcome to choose whichever way you want to go, however the current community concensus is that maximizing survival stats, in particular mastery then dodge and parry, even at the expense of hit and expertise is the way to go. This does contradict the previously established dogma of cap hit/exp as quickly as possible before progressing in other stats. This is because [Vengeance] is proving to be very powerful and makes it possible for tanks to afford several misses during the course of a fight."
From the prot pally guide:
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110338-cataclysm_tanking_protection_field_manual_updated_feb_9_2011_4_0_6_a/
In terms of the initial pull, you can MD and have DPS chill before dumping their big bangs in for a couple seconds. It doesn't take long to get threat up at all, even with low hit. Also if you have a big bad threat DPS monster you can salve them.
We've been going this way through t11 and haven't had issues with wipes due to DPS pulling threat.
Peli Mar 23rd 2011 4:17PM
Additionally, your choice to choose threat generation over mitigation and then try and cover it with the premise that you're "saving your healers' mana" is a fallacy. If you exchange a survivability stat (say, dodge) for threat (say hit) in order to hard cap it, you're exchanging 961 points of dodge for 961 points of hit. Or you're exchanging 5.44% dodge (before diminishing returns), something that is a factor for the entirety of an encounter, for 5% hit, something that is ONLY an issue during those first few seconds of an encounter. It only gets worse when you consider the additional survivability hit you take getting to 26 expertise.
omedon666 Mar 23rd 2011 4:19PM
Interesting... Thanks for sharing, Snuf!
Without clicking on the links, would this "abandonment" of hit/exp be equally recommended for blood tanks? (I am one, you see, so my oldschoolness would seem to benefit me)
Hey I may be old school, but I'm not the "get off my lawn" guy refusing to change! ;)