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3-25-2011 @ 2:12PM
I don't like Lisa's response at all. The least that the raid leader could have done would have been to at least give Vent Troubles a couple of minutes to get his Ventrilo squared away, or at least let him know that not having it operational was no good before blowing up on him.
3-25-2011 @ 2:50PM
Vent Troubles didn't apparently ask for time to sort vent out, just kept demanding people not use the de facto standard for communication during a raid. VT should have sorted ventrilo out while they were doing trash as soon as he/she noticed a problem, not waited until they were at a boss and wiping.Lisa's response isn't off - she makes a note of the attitude of the RL, but the fault here lies with Vent Troubles, not him. I don't doubt that there is part of the story that VT isn't telling, and it's probably (That Guy syndrome) the part where he/she didn't handle the situation properly from the word Go. You can infer as much from the things he/she did tell us.
3-25-2011 @ 3:13PM
I completely agree with Lisa on this one. If VT was in fact having vent troubles, the onus lies on him to either fix that problem or be able to do the raid without requiring the use of vent. Don't give me the crap that the guild isn't racing for realm firsts. Whether you're from Paragon or Random guild # 2778, as soon as you step into a raid, your goal is to down bosses. Wiping repeatedly is not fun for anyone involved and if you wanted to spend time with your friends that can be done in other less forgiving settings like heroic dungeons.We also have to remember that we are only hearing one side of the story. A side that is likely biased and is likely to omit any of the details that might explain why 9 other people in the raid did not bother explaining to him. It is more likely that Vent troubles was doing something wrong compared to the 9 other people in the raid being insensitive douchebags. My theory: Vent Troubles is either the unprepared guy (always asks for boss strats, flasks, food) or the entitled guy ("You guys owe me cause I helped you progress in ICC"). Both the unprepared guy and entitled guy usually get ignored when they say anything in gchat or raid chat (boy who cried wolf effect).That being said, the officer could've handled the situation better. Instead of going off on this guy, a simple silent treatment (no more invites to raids) would've worked infinitely better. Both parties were wrong here, and people shouldn't be siding with Vent Troubles just because he is acting like a victim (9 other people who wiped repeatedly were victims too)
3-25-2011 @ 3:20PM
Just to give an example of the "entitled guy":A guildmate of mine recently came back after a long hiatus in Wrath. He was the founder of the guild, however when he left the game he had to pass the leadership to someone else. Now when he came back, he would mention regularly on both gchat and whispers with members that he was the original guild leader and that he only lost leadership cause he passed it while he was away. Now fast forward one raid night, the raid was wiping (Downed bosses hides all sins) and he started to go off on the raid leader saying that he should be the one leading etc etc. I'm not saying that Vent Troubles is the same as my former guildmate but basing from these parts of his letter:" So I decided to give him some sound, former raid leader(back when uld and ToC were new) advice: When leading a raid, block out EVERYTHING else in game except for the raid, and devote all your attention to managing the raid WHILE playing the game""Shortly after my main joined, I got the guild raiding and progressing, and took them from a guild with under 5 OS 10 man kills and almost nothing else, to a guild with naxx 10 fully cleared, Ulduar progressed to Hodir and ToGC fully cleared in under 2 months, and when ICC came out, we jumped right in and got our first Deathbringer kill in mid January"There are some indications that he is 'That Guy'
3-25-2011 @ 3:29PM
I disagree. While I do think that the raid leader might have overreacted, Vent Trouble's letter even reeks of arrogance. And giving his "friendly advice" after wiping the raid like this? Seriously? When leading a raid, you get whispers, you have the tanking channel, the healer channel. There's a lot going on. So if you can't reach the raid leader, whisper someone else and ask them to tell the RL in vent if needed.As was mentioned by both Lisa and Robin, he's the guy coming back. He's the one that has to prove himself again. The RL might have overreacted (don't know if he was provoked) but the raids now are not facerollers and it behooves everyone to get their act together and be ready.So, I think Lisa is completely right. That guy's ego needs to be knocked down a peg and that's exactly what she did.
3-25-2011 @ 3:39PM
Yes, Sky is totally right. I'm a slow typist.
3-25-2011 @ 3:41PM
Lisa's comments surprised me as a little rough but I think I get where she's going though.Assuming VT's account of the events is fair, in VT's place I might have formally confirmed communication with the MT and either suggest a quick timeout to correct technical issues (on whoever's side) or to expect slow progress going forward.I sounds like managing expectations was in order.
3-25-2011 @ 3:45PM
It's a 10 man, there's not an impossible amount of chat flying by, or even that many things to arrange. If you can't handle the responsibilities, you're not a good raid leader. It's not an easy job, but people trivialize what it takes to be a good one and minimize their responsibility in making things are going well. A good raid leader finds and fixes problems. It's not enough just to demand, and its not even self-serving to be inflexible. Do you want to win? Or do you want to be a jerk? I would have told that person not to come back until their vent was sorted out, but the ignoring of chat and the supposed unwillingness of the rest of the group to help try to communicate that problem not only speaks badly of the raid leader, but the group as a whole. Find a new group that suits you better, VT. These guys sound like fools.
3-25-2011 @ 3:49PM
I think we all agree that the officer's attitude was off, but I have to agree that Vent didn't help the situation.I think there's less of a problem looking at how the raid team will view a night of wiping rather than the potential raid leader not having read up on bosses. If a raid leader is giving you feedback (no matter how harsh they are being), trying to turn it around and criticising their own skills is not a good road to go down. How would you feel if you were the raid leader and someone who you felt was under prepared and under performing said it was actually your fault?Like Lisa said, we don't condone the officer's actions, but Vent doesn't seem to have done very much to help resolve the situation.
3-25-2011 @ 4:50PM
Both sides were wrong. Who goes 7 wipes without getting things sorted. 2 wipes at most and you have the "come to Jesus" talk with the raid. Strat should be discussed first while buffing before the first trash pull. Never assume people know the fights. Even guildies. It sounds to me that the OP is as much of a drama queen as the officer in question. Best thing to do is split. Form your own guild. Put someone reasonable in charge if you can't commit the time it needs to run it full time.
3-25-2011 @ 4:53PM
Based on the scenario given, even if it happened exactly as written, I'd have to say that there is more than enough blame to go around. Vent Troubles didn't handle the situation well, the Raid Leader didn't lead or react well, and the other 8 members of the raid apparently didn't do anything either. Those 8 other raid members are not blameless here either, as it isn't just on the Raid Leader's shoulders to do everything, or any one raid member really. Lots and lots of blame to go around, a big fail on the part of the entire raid, imo.
3-25-2011 @ 5:38PM
That was the first thing that sprung up to me. How do you go 7 wipes on a boss with out apparently doing anything to try to get vent working again? Especially when it's a new boss that you don't know. No matter how much of a hurry they seemed to be in and even if they were completely ignoring Vent in raid chat I'm 100% sure that they would have waited for a disconnected healer to come back.Knowing that fight, there's also a number of things that a healer easily could have been doing, not knowing the fight, that would be directly leading to wiping the raid. The top 2 that spring to mind is dispelling blackout early and not moving out of the stack when they've got Engulfing Magic.
3-25-2011 @ 5:39PM
Independent of the advice contained in Lisa's reply, it was clearly not worded in a way that would appeal to anyone. The readers will be variously shocked or assume that Lisa thinks that the writer, VT, is embellishing a one-sided story. We can only assume that because she doesn't actually say that she feels that way, and seems to be acting like an off-the-cuff unplanned raid was a scheduled event that VT did not plan for. The intended audience of the reply, presumably VT him/herself, is not going to react well to being told to get a clue, since they've already backtalked the raidleader who already said the same thing. VT, if they are the person we're assuming you think they are, will just use Robin's opinion to validate their own, and lump Lisa's in with the raid leader. I would have at least mentioned the issue of creating self-serving fictions and how that's detrimental to yourself and any relationships you form, if you suspected VT of doing that.So, who was that reply written for?
3-25-2011 @ 5:45PM
I would have to think that the Raid Leader had to do a ready check and if Vent hit the ready button then it's 100% his fault and if he hit not ready and the RL still went forward with the boss pull 100% RL fault.
3-25-2011 @ 7:28PM
I agree with everyone here that there is more than enough blame to go around. VT did not try and fix the issue that he knew was leading to wipes, the RL was not very attentive to the problems at hand which lead to a whole lot of fail, and the rest of the raid never stepped up and took personal responsibility for making the raid a success (instead of just putting it all at the RL feet even though that obviously wasn't working). That being said the RL is responsible for the failure of the raid. Is that fair? No. But leading a raid isn't about everything being fair: it is about leading 9 other people to success. If I know someone is new to a raid, and still let them in the group, then *I* am taking responsibility to help that new raider so that they have the least negative impact on the raid. Would it be nice if they read up on the encounters? Sure: and fair. But as RL it is not about how fair it is that you have to take time to explain a fight they could have looked up. This is doubly true if it is a spur of the moment raid. It was the RL job to make sure everyone knew the fight; especially a fight that in many ways 1 person can wipe the entire raid in seconds. He should have explained it in vent and got a verbal, or raid chat, confirmation from all new players that they understood the fight. Bam: most unnecessary wiping has been averted. Being a RL isn't easy: you get the same rewards as everyone else but you have to work twice as hard, think twice as fast, know everything that is going on, and deal with all the problems that come up. It is not for the weak of heart. It is not for the inattentive. And that is why most people don't want to be one.Wow, reading what I just wrote makes me see how much raiding is srs bizns.
3-25-2011 @ 10:11PM
I don't like Lisa's comment at all.Leadership, either in a wow setting or in a broader setting, involves dealing with the people you are leading. See what I did there? I used the words "dealing with" and "people".Being a good leader in my world is communicating with the people you direct towards a common goal. Yes, as a leader you want your followers to have knowledge about the content you all are trying to tackle. When you are in the car sales business it does of course help when everybody has read the memo about sales targets for this month. But when one of your employees explicitly mails you: "I can't read your memo, please send it again, because when I tried to read it my computer crashed" and you only respond with: "Go fuck yourself, I don't read emails, you retard, how dare you to send me emails", you should be the one to be sacked.Leadership is not a free ticket to total assholery. Leadership is a heavy task which involves inspiring people. Sure, you can adopt a Machiavellian approach to raiding, but ffs, wow is a game. With people. And when you even can't be bothered to read chat, why don't you just buy Guitar Hero and take the 'ole pecker on a walk on your own.
3-25-2011 @ 10:27PM
I tend to agree with a lot of people here, there is a lot of blame to go around.As a raid leader, unless something is so much on farm you can sleep through it (like doing Utgarde Keep at the end of wrath), vent was always very important to me. So much so, that I would do a Vent Check. This is a really simple tool, and here's how it goes:"I'm going to hit ready check, and if you can hear me, I want you to hit NO you ARE ready."Usually one or two people hit yes that are on vent, and they will then say on vent "Oh heh yeah i'm here i just spazzed out." But the 1 or 2 people who did hit yes, and didn't respond, that way I would know they aren't on vent.Primarily, I find fault with the raid leader here. Secondarily, VT really reacted badly. I would say he reacted about as bad as someone can act. The bottom line is that this is a miscommunication. Miscommunications can be extremely problematic, and in certain occupations can even be harmful or deadly with drastic consequences. (The BP oil spill is a prime example of extreme miscommunication error.)What VT should do, if he wants to stay with this group, is own up to his mistake, tell the guild and RL he is very sorry for acting out, and will in the future work to assure he knows the fights better and has his vent cleared up. Any less and he should just cut his losses and head somewhere else.
3-26-2011 @ 12:46PM
I disagree--I think both parties were wrong here.1.) The raider should have been responsible for knowing the strategies before the fight, making sure that he had everything required to raid (in this case, a working Ventrilo client), and stepping out so they could find a replacement if he couldn't meet those criteria. He also screwed up by giving the RL a lecture: while he may have once been a raid leader (even in the same guild), he's just another raider now, and he should not be telling the RL what do do unless the RL asks for help or the GM tells him to instruct the RL. If he thinks the RL is not doing a good job, that's something that should be brought to the attention of the GM.2.) The raid leader should have been paying attention to raid chat and Vent so that he could see there was a problem with one of the raid members, attempted to help the raider resolve his problem, and then asked the raider to step out if the problem couldn't be resolved. It was also incredibly immature to bring a personal disagreement into guild chat, especially repeating whispers. The raider's lack of preparation and disrespect should have been addressed, at most, in a group of other officers, not with the general guild population.I don't think either of them is mature enough to resolve this issue on their own. The GM or a senior officer should speak to both of them (separately), explain why how they acted was not acceptable, and then work to both overcome this drama and avoid a similar problem in the future.
3-26-2011 @ 8:06PM
Lisa's reply was stern but fair. If you're not able to raid - whether because vent is malfunctioning, or your internet is up and down like a yoyo, or your addons are all screwed up, or whatever - you need to do the decent thing, bow out of the raid, and sort out your problems. It's not on to waste nine other people's time the way "Vent Troubles" did.
3-26-2011 @ 11:05PM
Raid Leader," I'm here to lead. Not to read."
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