Arcane Brilliance: The constantly evolving, completely stagnant frost tree

So here's the thing:
The frost tree frustrates me.
It is and always has been the preeminent mage spec for all varieties of PvP and right now is, in fact, one of the most dominant PvP specs in the game, period. It's an incredibly versatile and fun spec to play in PvE. It has a freaking water elemental.
But every time the damage capabilities of the spec look like they might be approaching a truly raid-competitive level, the same damn roadblock gets thrown up. Every single time.
The roadblock of which I speak, of course, is the perception that the only way to balance frost mages in PvP is to hamstring them in PvE. As someone who loves the spec and dearly, dearly longs for the day when frost mages can walk proudly into even the most elitist of raids with their heads held high and their DPS meters proudly displayed for all to see, this perpetual tug-of-war is a never-ending source of disappointment.
Why do I begin with such doom and gloom? Well, because frost mages are getting another buff, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let those cruel shysters fool me again. I'm on to you, class designers.
Fresh damage buffs on the PTR
Here are the latest notes from the PTR:
- Frostbolt damage has been increased by 10%.
- Fingers of Frost bonus damage applied to Ice Lance has been increased to 25%, up from 15%.
But immediately upon Blizzard's announcing these changes, the official mage forums lit up with threads decrying buffs to an already dominant PvP spec. I got killed by a frost mage yesterday, they shout. He swerved drunkenly into my travel lane and wiped out my whole family! Frost mages burned down my entire village, they cry. They made a necklace out of human ears like Dolph Lundgren in Universal Soldier! How could you buff them?
Perception versus reality
In Blizzard's recent Ask the Devs Q&A session, Bashiok addressed the perception of frost mages as "unbeatable." The very fact that he felt compelled to answer such a specific question simply underscores how widespread the sentiment that frost mages are overpowered is in the community.
The kit of the Frost mage is to have a lot of control and emergency buttons. This gives them a high skill cap, both in that it can be hard to stop a good Frost mage and it can be hard for less skilled PvP players to handle even a decent Frost mage. At the high end of PvP, we think Frost mages are balanced. It's everything below that where they can be frustrating to handle. We need to figure out ways to affect the latter without affecting the former. One solution is to take some of their control away, but make some of the remaining abilities undispellable. Those spells are always dispelled in high-end games, but less often in lower-end games.
I applaud the diplomacy here and agree wholeheartedly. Frost mages are powerful, but there are some pretty solid counters to them in the upper echelons of PvP. Where they seem unbeatable is in the lower tiers, when those counters either aren't known or aren't being properly deployed.
But the problem has never been reality with frost mages. The problem, as ever, is perception. The community feels frost is overpowered. Thus, PvE buffs never stick. We get them, but then some poor warlock who was too busy putting on eyeliner and singing along weepily to Coheed and Cambria to play properly has his face blown off by a frost mage in PvP, and those buffs are blunted to the point of irrelevance.
The unending class balance see-saw
Sigh. I don't mean to sound grumpy. It's just that I get so weary of this nonsense. Frost is a fantastic PvP spec. Nobody's going to argue that point. If you don't know what you're doing, and/or you aren't the right class or spec to properly counter frost, you're going to feel like frost mages are pretty damn unbeatable. If I take my arcane mage up against pretty much any kind of death knight, I'm going to feel the same way.
So the point behind these complaints is valid: Frost mages are powerful in PvP. In the ongoing quest for PvP balance, it's tough for any class/spec that feels like it's underpowered to see a class/spec that most consider to be overpowered get buffed. You lose to frost mages already; why would they need buffs, again?
But for the raiding frost mage, who has seen his DPS numbers go from poor to mediocre to almost competitive to crap on a never-ending, patch-by-patch cycle, those buffs are an absolute necessity. We desperately want to bring our incredible crowd control and unique utility into our guild's progression raids, but we need to be able to do so without gimping the group's damage output. So we dual spec to fire and only switch to frost in certain, very limited scenarios. And we wait for the next upward cycle. And then we wait for the next downward one.
How to fix this
The most obvious solution is also one Blizzard steadfastly refuses to acknowledge: separate PvP and PvE damage numbers. Frost has so much control that any time our damage gets anywhere near the vicinity of viable, it becomes far too powerful in PvP. Bashiok suggests that the class design team is looking at lowering frost's control in some fashion, but that's a bad fix. Control is what frost is about; removing it removes the flavor of the spec.
So in the end, the designers keep returning to the damage nerf well, which of course is why the more frost changes, the more it stays the same. This is what happens every single time. Damage is buffed, PvP becomes too powerful, damage is nerfed. PvE is only sporadically competitive, and only for a very short amount of time.
If frost is forever going to be a PvP-only spec, I wish Blizzard would just come out and say that. If not, my suggestion is this: Just make frost's damage spells do more damage to NPCs than to players. Not every spec needs this kind of hard separation, but clearly frost does. This allows balance to be tweaked without regard for making the spec overpowered in either aspect of the game.
I've said it before and I will say it here again, to whoever will listen: There is absolutely no reason mages can't have three distinct but competitive raiding DPS specs. None.
Entirely random Stephen King reference
I'm not bitter. I continue to applaud the incredible and largely thankless job the design team does balancing this enormous and complex game. And I'm not blind to the plights of other classes. I wish the same kind of universal viability for every class and every spec, except warlocks. I want there to be a choice of DPS specs for everyone. But most of all, I want to be able to play my frost mage without any snide comments, raid kicks, or demands that I switch specs. I hope for that glorious day when fire mages, arcane mages, and frost mages can walk together, arm in cloth-robed arm, across the threshold of the Firelands, there to meet and destroy the armies of Ragnaros with whatever elemental preference we see fit to dispense. I hope I can make it across the border.
I hope to see my friend and shake his hand.
I hope the Pacific is as blue as it has been in my dreams.
I hope.
Filed under: Mage, Analysis / Opinion, (Mage) Arcane Brilliance






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
Naryn Mar 26th 2011 4:10PM
I agree wholeheartedly, Mages have literally no choice in PvE, as Arcane and Frost numbers are so low, Frost is many mages favourite spec but because of PvP balance mages have always been unbalanced in some way and there's usually never a choice of spec's let alone a Choice of frost dps
Urza Mar 26th 2011 7:03PM
I miss the days of frost being survival for pvp and leveling for pve (thanks to frostbolt freezing stuff) with arcane and fire being for pvp kiting and pve raiding.
Alex F Mar 27th 2011 3:31AM
Arcane PvE is actually quite strong, despite what most people think. Once you start seeing a few 372 items, arcane surpasses fire for single target damage.
Thebigidea Mar 27th 2011 1:55PM
Ok Christian/Readers here is some food for thought, what if they made the frost tree much larger...the idea I have would require the tree to be about doubled in size. now, im going to use two concepts here, one in Rift and one already in WoW to some degree. This would require a large overhaul of the spec, not so much in talents but in the way the tree is designed.
Deep breath, wall of text inc.
Concept:
a). Make two separate sections of the frost tree, one side valuable to pvp and one valuable to pve. The way the two trees would work is thus: Talent A is required for talent B which is required for C which splits off into D and E which are required for X and Y and so on. This way to get the valuable talents for lets say pvp you have to go so deep into the PvP side it is no longer worth it to tap into the PvE side, and put the talents that would be valuable for PvP but are meant for PvE so deep enough into the PvE side that they are inaccessible to those going into the PvP side. Im not talking Deep Freeze or anything here, those talents could be perhaps duplicated in both trees, im mainly talking about talents that "increase damage by X" or "Increases critical strike chance of Y by X"
This would allow both sides to be balanced differently.
b). Make talents in this PvP "side" of the spec "Increases damage against PLAYERS by X" or "absorbs X amount of incoming PLAYER damage". Therefore it would make talents in this spec unattractive to the other side intended for PvE because it would be a 0% increase in PvE.
Anyhow tell me your thoughts, I know theres alot of room for improvement but this is my basic idea.
Sainthubbins Mar 26th 2011 4:11PM
The recent change that made the least sense of all to me was when they LOWERED THE DAMAGE OF DEEP FREEZE. The one ability that only does damage in PVE. Why? Why would they do that? It can't have had anything to do with PVP balance, the ability doesn't do any damage against players. It just made no sense to me.
Mugutu Mar 26th 2011 5:03PM
Because they are evil bastards, mostly. They buff the spells that affect PvP and nerf the ones that affect PvE. Now frost is fighting with Arcane, Arms, Beast Mastery, and Subtlety for worst-performing raiding spec.
Pyromelter Mar 26th 2011 5:31PM
The reason blizzard gave for nerfing DF damage was that it was one-shotting some stun-immune adds, and they claimed it was trivializing a certain raid encounter (or possibly more than one).
I have a very, very simple solution to that: Keep DF damage where it is by nerfing the damage by 40%, and adding that 40% back in a DoT. That way, you keep DF's damage the same, but not in one insanely huge instant burst. Blizz can even buff DF damage by nerfing the damage by 40%, but causing 60% of the damage to be done as damage over time.
Jormund Fenris Mar 26th 2011 4:13PM
They turned me into a newt!
hicks Mar 26th 2011 5:21PM
Aw, man. Now I want Polymorph:Newt.
Tribunal Mar 26th 2011 6:38PM
Only if it gives a debuff for a few minutes after it wears off that says "I got better"
brian Mar 26th 2011 11:11PM
Polymorph: Newt
Transforms the enemy into a newt, forcing it to scurry around for up to 50 sec.
Polymorph Magic
Cannot attack or cast spells. Increased regeneration.
You'll get better.
50 seconds remaining
Sumadin Mar 26th 2011 4:14PM
"But the problem has never been reality with frost mages. The problem, as ever, is perception. The community feels frost is overpowered. Thus, PvE buffs never stick. We get them, but then some poor warlock who was too busy putting on eyeliner and singing along weepily to Coheed and Cambria to play properly has his face blown off by a frost mage in PvP, and those buffs are blunted to the point of irrelevance."
I am problary going to be slammed for saying this.
But that pretty much sums up the history of ret paladins aswell.
mazokuranma Mar 26th 2011 4:43PM
This is mostly true, but there was that one point during Wrath (The point where you could Bubble + Avenging Wrath = Instant Win) where they were legitimately overpowered. I had never even done any ret PvP at that point, but I pulled out my ret pally to test it out and I was stomping PvP geared people in my PvE dungeon gear (My pally is primarily a tank). This legitimate (though very short) sting of OPness is what has been the source of ret pally frustrations ever since though, which kind of sucks, because they're not nearly as dominant as many people still decry.
Telwar Mar 26th 2011 8:03PM
That was actually pre-Wrath, after the end of the last BC season.
We had that hotfixed two days before a patch, too.
Because, you know, two days before a patch in a point where no arena games mattered was absolutely necessary. I'm not saying it was unnecessary, but the timing was awful.
rice2007 Mar 26th 2011 8:48PM
I agree with this so much. Isnt a skilled PvPer supposed to be hard to kill? If not, what's the point of skill?
Necromann Mar 26th 2011 4:17PM
I'm lving a Mage Right now as frost. When I do dungeons, my dps seem to be pretty comparative to most other classes, surv hunters not included.
PeeWee Mar 26th 2011 4:34PM
Balance when leveling is irrelevant to end-game raiding balance. As prot-warrior I out-DPS anything that moves when I level, even when I have no heirlooms and the DPS:ers do. I tank and stand at the end of the run with no less than 40-50% of dmg done every single instance.
This doesn't make prot warrior a viable DPS-spec for raiding, does it?
raven.quiet.storm Mar 26th 2011 4:49PM
That dps equality does not continue in the upper levels and becomes quite drastic. Right now, if you play arcane in Raids... you will be asked to change to fire. If you go frost, they DEMAND you change to fire immediately or you will be banned forever. I've even said you shouldn't run frost in a raid, not because I hate frost (I love it, its FANTASTIC pvp), but because it then becomes too impossible to accomplish the greater fights.
Its not fair, we have one pve spec, I still play arcane, but if this patch wasn't coming I'd be asked to change. It's frustrating to work so hard and in the end it being meaningless, I feel you frost mages, though we are about to get out of that hole. Even when there was JUST arcane changes people were complaining about frost mages.
I'm convinced that no-one(all those people who QQ on forums and just really can't play pvp) will be happy with frost mages until they can simply beat them to death with no competition at all.
Legs Mar 28th 2011 8:23AM
I agree with Necromann: I am in a casual raid guild (we're at 5/12 normal right now). I am consistently even with the other ranged DPSers in my guild as a frost mage. I don't have any recount logs to look at, but I believe that I range between ~14k to ~18k on most of the fights if my memory serves.
I have to assume then that my guild is doing terrible DPS if frost is keeping up with the rest of them, but what sort of numbers should we be getting?
I ran Fire last week and got very similar numbers, but then I am a bit out of practise, so I suspect that I could likely get a bit higher, but I didn't think it would be a massive difference, certainly not enough to offset the utility that I love so much.
Thoughts?
MrMageTankFTW!! Apr 5th 2011 4:30AM
I was a strict PVPer after my guild couldnt and wouldnt clear ICC. I now am almost full geared in PVP vicious gear but still run raids/heroics with my new guild. i am dropping 14-17k myself. i was called out in guild chat for raiding in my pvp gear but i threw it in the persons face that i was beating them in dps so to stfu, and to learn his toon.