Arcane Brilliance: The constantly evolving, completely stagnant frost tree

So here's the thing:
The frost tree frustrates me.
It is and always has been the preeminent mage spec for all varieties of PvP and right now is, in fact, one of the most dominant PvP specs in the game, period. It's an incredibly versatile and fun spec to play in PvE. It has a freaking water elemental.
But every time the damage capabilities of the spec look like they might be approaching a truly raid-competitive level, the same damn roadblock gets thrown up. Every single time.
The roadblock of which I speak, of course, is the perception that the only way to balance frost mages in PvP is to hamstring them in PvE. As someone who loves the spec and dearly, dearly longs for the day when frost mages can walk proudly into even the most elitist of raids with their heads held high and their DPS meters proudly displayed for all to see, this perpetual tug-of-war is a never-ending source of disappointment.
Why do I begin with such doom and gloom? Well, because frost mages are getting another buff, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let those cruel shysters fool me again. I'm on to you, class designers.
Fresh damage buffs on the PTR
Here are the latest notes from the PTR:
- Frostbolt damage has been increased by 10%.
- Fingers of Frost bonus damage applied to Ice Lance has been increased to 25%, up from 15%.
But immediately upon Blizzard's announcing these changes, the official mage forums lit up with threads decrying buffs to an already dominant PvP spec. I got killed by a frost mage yesterday, they shout. He swerved drunkenly into my travel lane and wiped out my whole family! Frost mages burned down my entire village, they cry. They made a necklace out of human ears like Dolph Lundgren in Universal Soldier! How could you buff them?
Perception versus reality
In Blizzard's recent Ask the Devs Q&A session, Bashiok addressed the perception of frost mages as "unbeatable." The very fact that he felt compelled to answer such a specific question simply underscores how widespread the sentiment that frost mages are overpowered is in the community.
Bashiok: The kit of the Frost mage is to have a lot of control and emergency buttons. This gives them a high skill cap, both in that it can be hard to stop a good Frost mage and it can be hard for less skilled PvP players to handle even a decent Frost mage. At the high end of PvP, we think Frost mages are balanced. It's everything below that where they can be frustrating to handle. We need to figure out ways to affect the latter without affecting the former. One solution is to take some of their control away, but make some of the remaining abilities undispellable. Those spells are always dispelled in high-end games, but less often in lower-end games.
I applaud the diplomacy here and agree wholeheartedly. Frost mages are powerful, but there are some pretty solid counters to them in the upper echelons of PvP. Where they seem unbeatable is in the lower tiers, when those counters either aren't known or aren't being properly deployed.
But the problem has never been reality with frost mages. The problem, as ever, is perception. The community feels frost is overpowered. Thus, PvE buffs never stick. We get them, but then some poor warlock who was too busy putting on eyeliner and singing along weepily to Coheed and Cambria to play properly has his face blown off by a frost mage in PvP, and those buffs are blunted to the point of irrelevance.
The unending class balance see-saw
Sigh. I don't mean to sound grumpy. It's just that I get so weary of this nonsense. Frost is a fantastic PvP spec. Nobody's going to argue that point. If you don't know what you're doing, and/or you aren't the right class or spec to properly counter frost, you're going to feel like frost mages are pretty damn unbeatable. If I take my arcane mage up against pretty much any kind of death knight, I'm going to feel the same way.
So the point behind these complaints is valid: Frost mages are powerful in PvP. In the ongoing quest for PvP balance, it's tough for any class/spec that feels like it's underpowered to see a class/spec that most consider to be overpowered get buffed. You lose to frost mages already; why would they need buffs, again?
But for the raiding frost mage, who has seen his DPS numbers go from poor to mediocre to almost competitive to crap on a never-ending, patch-by-patch cycle, those buffs are an absolute necessity. We desperately want to bring our incredible crowd control and unique utility into our guild's progression raids, but we need to be able to do so without gimping the group's damage output. So we dual spec to fire and only switch to frost in certain, very limited scenarios. And we wait for the next upward cycle. And then we wait for the next downward one.
How to fix this
The most obvious solution is also one Blizzard steadfastly refuses to acknowledge: separate PvP and PvE damage numbers. Frost has so much control that any time our damage gets anywhere near the vicinity of viable, it becomes far too powerful in PvP. Bashiok suggests that the class design team is looking at lowering frost's control in some fashion, but that's a bad fix. Control is what frost is about; removing it removes the flavor of the spec.
So in the end, the designers keep returning to the damage nerf well, which of course is why the more frost changes, the more it stays the same. This is what happens every single time. Damage is buffed, PvP becomes too powerful, damage is nerfed. PvE is only sporadically competitive, and only for a very short amount of time.
If frost is forever going to be a PvP-only spec, I wish Blizzard would just come out and say that. If not, my suggestion is this: Just make frost's damage spells do more damage to NPCs than to players. Not every spec needs this kind of hard separation, but clearly frost does. This allows balance to be tweaked without regard for making the spec overpowered in either aspect of the game.
I've said it before and I will say it here again, to whoever will listen: There is absolutely no reason mages can't have three distinct but competitive raiding DPS specs. None.
Entirely random Stephen King reference
I'm not bitter. I continue to applaud the incredible and largely thankless job the design team does balancing this enormous and complex game. And I'm not blind to the plights of other classes. I wish the same kind of universal viability for every class and every spec, except warlocks. I want there to be a choice of DPS specs for everyone. But most of all, I want to be able to play my frost mage without any snide comments, raid kicks, or demands that I switch specs. I hope for that glorious day when fire mages, arcane mages, and frost mages can walk together, arm in cloth-robed arm, across the threshold of the Firelands, there to meet and destroy the armies of Ragnaros with whatever elemental preference we see fit to dispense. I hope I can make it across the border.
I hope to see my friend and shake his hand.
I hope the Pacific is as blue as it has been in my dreams.
I hope.
Filed under: Mage, Analysis / Opinion, (Mage) Arcane Brilliance
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 6)
Iano Mar 27th 2011 4:11PM
DesireB- DON'T EAT THAT BROWNIE!
Mana-brownies from people in Arcane Brilliance always contain 1. laxative, or 2. poop. They're nothing like the brownies we serve at the slaughtered lamb. (cough, Ahem).
Mugutu Mar 26th 2011 4:58PM
I have to disagree with Archmage Pants here.
Warlocks don't listen to Coheed and Cambria. They listen to Evanescence. Everyone knows that.
MusedMoose Mar 26th 2011 5:03PM
"The most obvious solution is also one Blizzard steadfastly refuses to acknowledge: separate PvP and PvE damage numbers."
The recent issue and *possible* fix with Colossus Smash (a warrior ability that bypasses armor) shows that Blizzard may be changing their mind on having abilities other than just CC work differently in PvP and PvE situations. Mr. Rossi and Mr. McCurley discussed how there's a lot of people shouting that making this change will open the floodgates to all kinds of abilities having differences between PvP and PvE. But I hope that, if Blizzard decides it's a viable solution for some abilities, they'll take a good look at the frost mage with that in mind.
Diop Mar 26th 2011 6:01PM
Yeah, except people made a lot of similar comments when Blizz changed Deep Freeze to deal damage on bosses, unfortunately that was about 18 months ago. I don't really see this as a sign of massive changes to come, more just a continuation of their current policy of only doing this in extreme circumstances.
Personally I think the next time we're likely to see a similar change will be in patch 5.1 where they decide some new spell they added in the next patch just cannot work for PVE and PVP, and we'll probably see similar comments then as well.
MusedMoose Mar 26th 2011 7:43PM
I thought the issue with Deep Freeze was that it was useless on any creature that was immune to stuns. But it's interesting to see that Blizzard is willing to make these sorts of exceptions. We'll have to wait and see what happens.
Diatenium Mar 26th 2011 5:09PM
It's kinda funny how the ones who don't like a change are the most vocal.
I don't play a mage, but seeing this buff and the buff to arcane I thought to myself "Oh, awesome, the mage I raid with has been complaining that these specs were falling behind on the charts, good for him!" And I'm sure others feel the same way.
However, all I ever hear these days is entirely how unfair this is from a pvp standpoint, nobody seems to notice the actual reason for these buffs, a shame really.
Hanketsu Mar 26th 2011 5:10PM
I honestly feel blizzard is nullifying the entire purpose of dual spec with the pvp balancing issues and buffing/nerfing frost. We got dual spec for a reason: so we can have a pvp spec and a pve spec or two pvp specs or two pve specs.
This isn't exactly rocket science, i understand blizzard was all for "bring the player not the class" which is why mages now have time warp but there has to be a line drawn somewhere and that line should be to make one talent tree essentially for pvp.
I was frost back in vanilla wow, i remember fire mages complaining about not being able to do damage to a lot of the raid mobs, onyxia, etc because they were immune to fire. Do I still love frost? of course! but I'm also not stupid enough to try to use the same tree for pvp that I do for pve. I fully utilize the dual spec we have and I really don't care if frost is ever viable for raiding because I will have fire and arcane to choose from and I'm willing to accept that.
Pyromelter Mar 26th 2011 5:54PM
The thing with dual spec is that it initially was meant to be for people to have one for pvp, one for pve. Then, they went and switched up raids so that every encounter would need differing amounts of tanks and healers and dps - basically forcing any decent raider into dual speccing PvE roles.
"there has to be a line drawn somewhere and that line should be to make one talent tree essentially for pvp."
Blizz can't do that with their current specialization system because there is no way, with just 3 trees, to keep all they hybrids in all their roles in PvE if they made one a "pvp only" tree. Shaman, druids, ret pallies, priests, death knights, warriors would all be up in arms about it.
There are other MMO's that have a "PvP only" spec, and those trees have things like "Increases damage against player characters by 15%." I think a better option for blizzard would be to add an entire line to each tree in the game that was an "against player character" type line of talents, OR, create a 4th spec for each class that would not be allowed to be a primary spec, but would be filled with "against player character" talents.
This would also make pvp much easier to balance, because then blizz could balance those pvp talents without touching the pve talents of the other trees.
matthew Mar 27th 2011 3:04AM
i like your idea pyromelter, i like it a lot
Bumblebee Mar 26th 2011 5:55PM
PvP in general has evolved to rely too much on control. There's too much CC, and too many counters for counters across the board. The same reason Frost "can't" be a viable raid spec is the exact same reason Sub Rogues can't really work too well either.
Still, since both specs are about control taking that part away from them would lessen the feel of what the talent trees are for. I see 2 ways of working for a solution here.
1) Make PvP less about CC.
This would streamline PvP quite a bit, but also make it potentially rather boring.
2) Diminishing returns on more effects for PvP.
CC effects need not have DR for PvE, but for PvP it's essential. Utility for raids, while making CC less effective, meaning higher skill cap in general.
Sleutel Mar 26th 2011 6:41PM
You don't want PvP to be about control. So, what, you want to turn it into two people just hammering on each other until one of them falls over? You wouldn't even need to play. Just plug both teams into a sim and whoever has the biggest numbers wins.
Bumblebee Mar 27th 2011 9:25AM
@Sleutel
I did actually say: "This would streamline PvP quite a bit, but also make it potentially rather boring." Please, try to read the whole text before jumping to conclusions.
The obvious way is to go with Diminishing Returns on many different control or debuff effects. This would require you to think about how to chain the effects for maximum effect, while also leave players able to actually fight back. In general though, the arms race for the most CC effects has gone too far. It doesn't necessarily add anything fun to the game. There needs to be a balance with timing your attacks for good damage and controlling your target to survive. Atm I think we are getting closer to that, but there's still many things to work out.
ENOUGH! Mar 26th 2011 6:04PM
In vanilla wow frost mages were gods in pvp. Far far better than they are today.
Then came arena and frost was balanced for pvp, and it sucked for pve.
This would be OK except for the fact that blizzard has periodically stated the desire they have for all specs to be viable for both pvp and pve, last time was last years blizzcon.
Blizzard constantly trots out the same argument for the last four years regarding different coefficients for pvp and pve, in fact they used it in the dev Q and A of last week, it looked like they cut and pasted the answer from 2007.
The do not need to make mechanics for mage specs different for pvp and pve.
All they really need to do is make one or two spells per spec, fire, frost, arcane, do different amounts of damage to a player vs an NPC. Say Frostbolt/Ice lance for frost, Fireball/Scorch for fire, and arcane blast/arcane missles for arcane.
Yet they argue that the game is too confusing as it is to make frostbolt tooltip for example say "does 1000 damage to players, and 2000 damage to npcs"
This solution has been proposed for at least 3 maybe 4 years. Instead blizzard trys to fix the issue with some clever solution or gimmick, that never seems to work.
JUST FIX IT ALREADY.
I applaud CB for addressing the this issue with more honesty than blizzard does.
techvoodooguy Mar 26th 2011 6:23PM
"The most obvious solution is also one Blizzard steadfastly refuses to acknowledge: separate PvP and PvE damage numbers."
Two words: &*$# off. Maybe it's just because I'm a programmer, writer and balance-head, but I'd rather have the class OP in PvP, competitive in PvE, and the abilities not segregated into two separate parts. For the record, I don't play a mage. I play a hunter. Nimun on US-Darkspear if ye don't believe me.
techvoodooguy Mar 26th 2011 6:24PM
Also, I mostly PvP, not PvE. Just check my armory and ye'll see that.
Kurash Mar 26th 2011 6:48PM
More than two words: Pick a better way to start your post. Beginning in such a combative way is both rude and foolish, since the rest of your post probably won't be taken as seriously.
techvoodooguy Mar 26th 2011 6:56PM
Perhaps I could have, but it's too late to change it now. Having separate rules for PvP and PvE seems like a good idea on the surface, but on implementation it's extremely confusing for all parties (Dev, Design, PvE, PvP, and any others you may want to add).
Artificial Mar 27th 2011 6:30AM
I can understand how for someone of extremely limited intellectual capacity, it might be confusing, but for most people it wouldn't be.
ENOUGH! Mar 27th 2011 11:20PM
And I've been a programmer for 30 years.
The only fringe cases are where you want NPCs to act like they are players for damage purposes. Vehicles in SoA for example.
There are already hidden buffs and debuffs in game, these actually drive the chatter of NPCs for example. You want a NPC to behave as a player for damage purposes? Put a perma buff called MAGE_FROST_PVP on it for example.
Now if a target is a player or has a buff called MAGE_FROST_PVP, you apply the pvp damage, else pve damage.
EaterOfBirds Mar 26th 2011 6:36PM
the only thing id disagree with is whos complaining ^ ^ its definately more melee as they struggle with frost, and a good affli lock can put a dampener on a frosty ok.
that said if arcane brilliance and blood pact stopped slagging each other specs itd be a sad day indeed for the mighty WoW insider.