Arcane Brilliance: The constantly evolving, completely stagnant frost tree

So here's the thing:
The frost tree frustrates me.
It is and always has been the preeminent mage spec for all varieties of PvP and right now is, in fact, one of the most dominant PvP specs in the game, period. It's an incredibly versatile and fun spec to play in PvE. It has a freaking water elemental.
But every time the damage capabilities of the spec look like they might be approaching a truly raid-competitive level, the same damn roadblock gets thrown up. Every single time.
The roadblock of which I speak, of course, is the perception that the only way to balance frost mages in PvP is to hamstring them in PvE. As someone who loves the spec and dearly, dearly longs for the day when frost mages can walk proudly into even the most elitist of raids with their heads held high and their DPS meters proudly displayed for all to see, this perpetual tug-of-war is a never-ending source of disappointment.
Why do I begin with such doom and gloom? Well, because frost mages are getting another buff, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let those cruel shysters fool me again. I'm on to you, class designers.
Fresh damage buffs on the PTR
Here are the latest notes from the PTR:
- Frostbolt damage has been increased by 10%.
- Fingers of Frost bonus damage applied to Ice Lance has been increased to 25%, up from 15%.
But immediately upon Blizzard's announcing these changes, the official mage forums lit up with threads decrying buffs to an already dominant PvP spec. I got killed by a frost mage yesterday, they shout. He swerved drunkenly into my travel lane and wiped out my whole family! Frost mages burned down my entire village, they cry. They made a necklace out of human ears like Dolph Lundgren in Universal Soldier! How could you buff them?
Perception versus reality
In Blizzard's recent Ask the Devs Q&A session, Bashiok addressed the perception of frost mages as "unbeatable." The very fact that he felt compelled to answer such a specific question simply underscores how widespread the sentiment that frost mages are overpowered is in the community.
Bashiok: The kit of the Frost mage is to have a lot of control and emergency buttons. This gives them a high skill cap, both in that it can be hard to stop a good Frost mage and it can be hard for less skilled PvP players to handle even a decent Frost mage. At the high end of PvP, we think Frost mages are balanced. It's everything below that where they can be frustrating to handle. We need to figure out ways to affect the latter without affecting the former. One solution is to take some of their control away, but make some of the remaining abilities undispellable. Those spells are always dispelled in high-end games, but less often in lower-end games.
I applaud the diplomacy here and agree wholeheartedly. Frost mages are powerful, but there are some pretty solid counters to them in the upper echelons of PvP. Where they seem unbeatable is in the lower tiers, when those counters either aren't known or aren't being properly deployed.
But the problem has never been reality with frost mages. The problem, as ever, is perception. The community feels frost is overpowered. Thus, PvE buffs never stick. We get them, but then some poor warlock who was too busy putting on eyeliner and singing along weepily to Coheed and Cambria to play properly has his face blown off by a frost mage in PvP, and those buffs are blunted to the point of irrelevance.
The unending class balance see-saw
Sigh. I don't mean to sound grumpy. It's just that I get so weary of this nonsense. Frost is a fantastic PvP spec. Nobody's going to argue that point. If you don't know what you're doing, and/or you aren't the right class or spec to properly counter frost, you're going to feel like frost mages are pretty damn unbeatable. If I take my arcane mage up against pretty much any kind of death knight, I'm going to feel the same way.
So the point behind these complaints is valid: Frost mages are powerful in PvP. In the ongoing quest for PvP balance, it's tough for any class/spec that feels like it's underpowered to see a class/spec that most consider to be overpowered get buffed. You lose to frost mages already; why would they need buffs, again?
But for the raiding frost mage, who has seen his DPS numbers go from poor to mediocre to almost competitive to crap on a never-ending, patch-by-patch cycle, those buffs are an absolute necessity. We desperately want to bring our incredible crowd control and unique utility into our guild's progression raids, but we need to be able to do so without gimping the group's damage output. So we dual spec to fire and only switch to frost in certain, very limited scenarios. And we wait for the next upward cycle. And then we wait for the next downward one.
How to fix this
The most obvious solution is also one Blizzard steadfastly refuses to acknowledge: separate PvP and PvE damage numbers. Frost has so much control that any time our damage gets anywhere near the vicinity of viable, it becomes far too powerful in PvP. Bashiok suggests that the class design team is looking at lowering frost's control in some fashion, but that's a bad fix. Control is what frost is about; removing it removes the flavor of the spec.
So in the end, the designers keep returning to the damage nerf well, which of course is why the more frost changes, the more it stays the same. This is what happens every single time. Damage is buffed, PvP becomes too powerful, damage is nerfed. PvE is only sporadically competitive, and only for a very short amount of time.
If frost is forever going to be a PvP-only spec, I wish Blizzard would just come out and say that. If not, my suggestion is this: Just make frost's damage spells do more damage to NPCs than to players. Not every spec needs this kind of hard separation, but clearly frost does. This allows balance to be tweaked without regard for making the spec overpowered in either aspect of the game.
I've said it before and I will say it here again, to whoever will listen: There is absolutely no reason mages can't have three distinct but competitive raiding DPS specs. None.
Entirely random Stephen King reference
I'm not bitter. I continue to applaud the incredible and largely thankless job the design team does balancing this enormous and complex game. And I'm not blind to the plights of other classes. I wish the same kind of universal viability for every class and every spec, except warlocks. I want there to be a choice of DPS specs for everyone. But most of all, I want to be able to play my frost mage without any snide comments, raid kicks, or demands that I switch specs. I hope for that glorious day when fire mages, arcane mages, and frost mages can walk together, arm in cloth-robed arm, across the threshold of the Firelands, there to meet and destroy the armies of Ragnaros with whatever elemental preference we see fit to dispense. I hope I can make it across the border.
I hope to see my friend and shake his hand.
I hope the Pacific is as blue as it has been in my dreams.
I hope.
Filed under: Mage, Analysis / Opinion, (Mage) Arcane Brilliance
Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news





Reader Comments (Page 5 of 6)
Hydden Mar 27th 2011 9:14AM
How about a temporary debuff applied after casting a control spell? Apply it as a passive for choosing the Frost tree.
"Chilled: When you cast Frost Nova, Ice Block, Ice Barrier, Ring of Frost (etc), all damage you deal is reduced by 10% for 10 secs".
That would give some interesting play in keeping with the Frost kit- use your control spells at the right time, and return to being a glass cannon when you don't need them (ie. in many PvE environments).
Hydden Mar 27th 2011 9:32AM
...or make the wording & functionality positive, so that it doesn't freak out newbies:
"Slipstream: Your movement speed is increased by 10% and your damage dealt by Frost spells is increased by 10%. If you cast [Control Spells], you will lose this effect for 10 secs."
WHYYY Mar 27th 2011 1:39PM
I understand the control and damage aspect of the frost mage. I also understand why homogenization of the classes was a cool decision. What I don't really understand why frost mages got the essential "greatest hits" edition of abilities from other classes on top of stuns, damage, and blink? I'm looking at you mage bloodlust, mage demon (the elemental), mage stealth, AND mage sprint. Primarily stealth and sprint combined with blink are pretty demoralizing, at least in BG's. And mage stealth is a pisser in arenas. Overall it seems like they just have too many options. Thoughts?
Recubi Mar 27th 2011 1:51PM
I think that most of us mages have to understand just like blizzard has to, not all specs can be viable for both at high ends of the spectrum. Even for rogues sub is still not an awesome raid spec either but you dont hear the rogues crying foul. Cause they come to understand that its a pvp spec. Frost is a great pvp spec, but honestly even my mage brethren will say frost is a pretty damn boring pve rotation anyway.
Frost damage in pvp is good not fantastic like other classes seem to think. Ya we set you up for failure but thats what frost does. Control and doing the right damage at the right time not faceroll button spammers like some classes. IMO its not worth chopping the nutz off a great spec so you can take the nostolgia into a raid.
Floppydog Apr 6th 2011 9:44PM
In my opinion, frost is THE most fun spec to play pve. I'd take it over arcane and fire any day, if only the numbers would add up.
And personally i see no reason why all 3 rogue specs shouldn't be raid-viable. I know they're not, but if i was a rogue, i would wish for it to happen, not tell others that they shouldn't wish for the moon.
Iano Mar 27th 2011 3:23PM
DesireB- DON'T EAT THAT BROWNIE!
Mana-brownies from people in Arcane Brilliance always contain 1. laxative, or 2. poop. They're nothing like the brownies we serve at the slaughtered lamb. (cough, Ahem).
Iano Mar 27th 2011 3:35PM
Absolutely replied in the appropriate place, I did, accursed comment system- I'll get you next time.
NEXT TIME!
Stone_Rhino Mar 27th 2011 5:48PM
Why doesnt blizzard just use mastery to make frost competitive in PVE? Isn't that the ENTIRE reason they added mastery to begin with, So that they would have an adjustable PVE dps knob that didn't effect ANYTHING else?
Its simple. Make sure theres no mastery on PVP gear provided by arenas. Then make mastery for frost greatly increase all frost damage done.
BOOM! Competitive raid DPS without any real change to their PVP balance.
rice2007 Mar 28th 2011 2:49AM
The problem with your solution is burst damage. If you had a rogue-mage team in arenas, the mage could sheep one opponent and the rogue sap the other. Both are incapacitated, so there is no need for resilience. The mage unloads on the sapped target and its a rap. Then switch to the sheeped target and repeat.
I know that this strategy wouldn't ALWAYS work, but the burst potential for mages with a mastery like that is godly. Not to mention the king abilities of a mage. If someone escaped a poly and began opening up, mages would only need to ice block, sheep, and reset distance before unloading another global of unprecedented fury.
Cambro Mar 27th 2011 8:30PM
"Just make frost's damage spells do more damage to NPCs than to players."
I think this statement could pretty well fit most classes in terms of pvp/pve balance. Once upon a time, there was no such thing as resilience. Then Blizzard put it in the game so damage from other players would hurt less. Then they made it so resilience did something additionally, but I forgot what that was (I'm a warrior, and it had something to do with mana). But they took that away. So, resilience is basically the way it used to be: it reduces the damage you take from other players. The inherent problem with this is that it tips the gear vs skill argument in favor of gear; you can be very skilled, but unless you have some resilience on your gear, you're still going to die quickly.
I suggest resilience be done away with for good, and make it so that players take less damage from other players across the board, spell for spell, ability for ability, so that our damaging abilities in pve don't suffer for sake of pvp balance.
Coldhearth Mar 28th 2011 3:52AM
Hey Cambro,
It reduced the effects of mana drains, I think that's what you are thinking of here.
As far as removing resilience, that isn't fair to people who PvP exclusively. That just means people who raid/pve will have the greatest advantage when it comes to dealing damage. With what you're suggestingin - the damage reduction might be equal across the board, but whoever has the top raiding gear will always do the most damage.
Not everyone PVEs. As for myself, I just arena and do rated battlegrounds.
I can understand the frustrations of everyone, but I think resilience is definitely needed to balance the pvp aspect of the game.
Cambro Mar 28th 2011 8:12AM
Was there some great need for resilience that warranted it being put in the game in the first place? I don't think I was quite 60 on my first character when it was first added. Did it come into the game at the same time as arenas? My big question is why resilience is needed at all at this point IF the damage reduction can be accomplished a different way, for example if the target is another player as opposed to a PC. :)
Mordredd Mar 28th 2011 5:27AM
I fully, wholeheartedly, utterly agree with Archmage Pants and a lot of the comments here.
I get yelled at in raids 'cause I play Frost even though I get higher numbers than when I try Fire or Arcane. I just don't like playing Fire. I really don't. And I suck at it too. Arcane isn't too bad, but in this incarnation, it doesn't really work either.
So now what? Should I just go for the Loremaster title as there's nothing else to do for me anymore? Dump my lovely mage? I thought this was a DPS class, so why is only Fire doing any decent damage in PvE?
As for PvP, it's been said before: It's not because you get beaten by a Frost mage, that the spec is OP. Get better at your class, it's as simple as that. I get pummeled by Rogues all the time - I bloody hate them - but they're not getting nerfed, are they? I just need to find ways to freeze their guts out. And Warlock's, of course :-D
Cambro Mar 28th 2011 8:20AM
I'm guessing you're a victim of ignorance, that stupid attitude that unless you're playing the "top" dps spec, you're doing it wrong. That may be a valid point if you're in the top 0.1% of all raiding guilds (and even then I don't agree with it), but for the rest of us, if the boss dies, if you beat the enrage timer, if you're pulling your own weight, whatever spec you choose to play should be perfectly fine.
It's kinda funny actually, in Wrath I absolutely (and still do) refused to play arcane, I hate the concept of pushing 2 buttons. I absolutely loved (and still do) fire. Sure, my dps was 1-2k lower than an arcane mage's, but I could easily be in the top 5 in a raid. Now the roles are reversed and I happen to be playing the "best" spec, but only because I prefer it to the other two.
david.lambaerts Mar 28th 2011 10:08AM
I'm guessing you're a victim of illiteracy, because that's not at all what I said.
I don't think there's anything wrong with me playing Frost, even if it isn't considered the "best spec". I play Frost because I like it best out of all tree specs, and I'm better at it compared to the two other options. I do what I'm supposed to do in fights and I don't cause wipes by doing stupid things. What I was trying to say, is that there are a lot of people in my raid-team who rather see me benched just because I play Frost. In their opinion, I have the option to play Fire, and I should take that option because it has potential to to more DPS. By another player, that is, 'cause as I already mentioned - I suck at playing Fire.
So I'm just not happy about Frost suffering in PvE due to QQ-ing on the PvP side...
Floppydog Apr 6th 2011 9:53PM
Don't be so quick to bite his head of david.lambaerts.
Being a "victim of ignorance" doesn't necessarily mean that YOU are ignorant. Only that you suffer because SOMEONE is ignorant. In this case raid leaders and others that are telling Mordredd to spec fire even tho he's doing fine (and most importantly enjoying himself) playing frost.
It's basicly a case of excess elitism.
david.lambaerts Apr 7th 2011 9:08AM
I stand corrected. Guess I'm a bit defensive about the whole Frost vs. Fire thingy. My apologies to Cambro and thanks to Floppy for pointing it out to me.
The way you put it - I fully agree ^^
Admiraldom Mar 28th 2011 11:16AM
Has there been any articles on Fire mages since Cataclysm came out on Arcane Brilliance?
Ahoni Mar 28th 2011 12:08PM
Tired, so tired, of PvE nerfs for PvP purposes.
The time has come for separate PvE and PvP builds.
Two talent trees, one PvE, one PvP. As soon as you flag for PvP, you are immediately switched to your PvP spec (with your current health/mana). As soon as you enter a PvP zone (Tol Borad, Wintergrasp), you are immediately switched to your PvP spec.
When you leave a PvP zone, you are automatically switched back (assuming you were auto switched).
Sadly, I don't think Blizz will ever do this as it will mean admitting they were wrong on this subject.
skinner927 Mar 29th 2011 4:20AM
This must sound dumb, but someone point me in the right direction on how to play frost PVP, I just get raped all day :(