Ghostcrawler chats about interrupts at the Dev Watercooler

In his first Dev Watercooler, Ghostcrawler talks about interrupts, where interrupt mechanics are going, and what he hopes they can look like over time.
'Dev Watercooler' is a blog series that provides an inside look into the thoughts and discussions happening within the World of Warcraft development team. In our first entry, Lead Systems Designer Greg "Ghostctrawler" Street laid down a few ground rules:
1. No promises are being made in these Dev Watercooler blogs.
2. Don't read too much between the lines.
3. No complaints about the topic not being what you want to see covered.
Are spellcast interrupt abilities, such as Kick, too good? It's easy to make that argument. We think their ease of use and low cooldown has led to a whole cascade of events in PvP. Because interrupts are so good, casters without a lot of instant spells or mobility are weak. For that reason, we tend to give casters a lot of instant spells or movement abilities, and casters who excel at those (say, Frost mages) are very powerful, while those without (say, Elemental shaman) have more difficulty.
Because interrupts are good, classes without them feel uncompetitive, which has led to us giving interrupts to paladins and druids, which in turn has led to them being even more prevalent. Because casters tend to fire off lots of instant spells while jumping around, melee can be really easy to kite. Because melee can be easy to kite, melee classes without strong mobility can suffer, and we have to consider giving high mobility to all melee, which increases the amount of uptime melee have on casters, which means we have to give casters even more powerful escape mechanisms to survive... and the arms race continues.
See where I'm going with this? Because instant spells tend to be so powerful, we have to make cast time spells insanely powerful to compete or they'll never see use in PvP. But we have to make those spells so powerful that when they do get off, we can have PvP burst issues. (Look at how much better Frostbolt has to be than Ice Lance for mages to even consider the "long" cast.)
Nerfing all of the interrupts across the board isn't the kind of thing we can realistically do mid-expansion. Anyone working on the raid content can tell you how important interrupts are to today's encounter design. We'd have to redesign nearly all of the raid encounters and many of the dungeon encounters as well. Of course once you increase the cooldown on interrupts, then availability of stuns gains relative power, so you have that balance consideration as well.
Instant spells do have their place in the game. If you're worried about being interrupted because someone is chasing you, or you are chasing them, that's a great time to use an instant spell. But actual 2.5 sec cast time spells need to have their place too and, if anything, they should be the norm.
Here's one other way in which interrupts have wide-reaching effects on the game via the chain of consequences discussed above. One of the advantages melee used to have in PvE was on movement fights. If the boss has to be kited or stays in motion, the rogues and warriors can follow along and still deal damage. It will be less damage for sure, but they'll still get a lot of auto attacks in. It used to be the case that asking the Balance druid or Fire mage to move was a huge dps loss for them, because they were always interrupting their spells. In today's PvE environment, that role has almost flipped. Many casters can shoot on the run and take only a very minimal DPS hit to do so. For this reason (and a few others) melee classes can feel like a liability on certain encounters. We'd prefer for raids to want a fairly even distribution of ranged to melee classes and ideally groups would have a lot of flexibility in who they bring. It's okay to have fights that are really good for casters, but there need to be at least a couple that feel great for melee as well.
Is there a design lesson to learn here? I guess it's some variant of the butterfly effect -- apparently innocuous designs (in this case the short cooldown on interrupt abilities) can have wide-ranging effects on all aspects of the game. I'm not sure what the game would look like if Pummel and Kick and Wind Shear had 30 second cooldowns. Clearly we'd have to redesign a lot of other abilities, mechanics, and numbers to make it work. Again, this isn't a change you'll see anytime soon. But it might feel better in the long run if we could get to that point.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer on World of Warcraft. He knows how to get to R'lyeh.
1. No promises are being made in these Dev Watercooler blogs.
2. Don't read too much between the lines.
3. No complaints about the topic not being what you want to see covered.
Are spellcast interrupt abilities, such as Kick, too good? It's easy to make that argument. We think their ease of use and low cooldown has led to a whole cascade of events in PvP. Because interrupts are so good, casters without a lot of instant spells or mobility are weak. For that reason, we tend to give casters a lot of instant spells or movement abilities, and casters who excel at those (say, Frost mages) are very powerful, while those without (say, Elemental shaman) have more difficulty.
Because interrupts are good, classes without them feel uncompetitive, which has led to us giving interrupts to paladins and druids, which in turn has led to them being even more prevalent. Because casters tend to fire off lots of instant spells while jumping around, melee can be really easy to kite. Because melee can be easy to kite, melee classes without strong mobility can suffer, and we have to consider giving high mobility to all melee, which increases the amount of uptime melee have on casters, which means we have to give casters even more powerful escape mechanisms to survive... and the arms race continues.
See where I'm going with this? Because instant spells tend to be so powerful, we have to make cast time spells insanely powerful to compete or they'll never see use in PvP. But we have to make those spells so powerful that when they do get off, we can have PvP burst issues. (Look at how much better Frostbolt has to be than Ice Lance for mages to even consider the "long" cast.)
Nerfing all of the interrupts across the board isn't the kind of thing we can realistically do mid-expansion. Anyone working on the raid content can tell you how important interrupts are to today's encounter design. We'd have to redesign nearly all of the raid encounters and many of the dungeon encounters as well. Of course once you increase the cooldown on interrupts, then availability of stuns gains relative power, so you have that balance consideration as well.
Instant spells do have their place in the game. If you're worried about being interrupted because someone is chasing you, or you are chasing them, that's a great time to use an instant spell. But actual 2.5 sec cast time spells need to have their place too and, if anything, they should be the norm.
Here's one other way in which interrupts have wide-reaching effects on the game via the chain of consequences discussed above. One of the advantages melee used to have in PvE was on movement fights. If the boss has to be kited or stays in motion, the rogues and warriors can follow along and still deal damage. It will be less damage for sure, but they'll still get a lot of auto attacks in. It used to be the case that asking the Balance druid or Fire mage to move was a huge dps loss for them, because they were always interrupting their spells. In today's PvE environment, that role has almost flipped. Many casters can shoot on the run and take only a very minimal DPS hit to do so. For this reason (and a few others) melee classes can feel like a liability on certain encounters. We'd prefer for raids to want a fairly even distribution of ranged to melee classes and ideally groups would have a lot of flexibility in who they bring. It's okay to have fights that are really good for casters, but there need to be at least a couple that feel great for melee as well.
Is there a design lesson to learn here? I guess it's some variant of the butterfly effect -- apparently innocuous designs (in this case the short cooldown on interrupt abilities) can have wide-ranging effects on all aspects of the game. I'm not sure what the game would look like if Pummel and Kick and Wind Shear had 30 second cooldowns. Clearly we'd have to redesign a lot of other abilities, mechanics, and numbers to make it work. Again, this isn't a change you'll see anytime soon. But it might feel better in the long run if we could get to that point.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer on World of Warcraft. He knows how to get to R'lyeh.
Personally, I agree with Ghostcrawler -- interrupts are one of those mechanics that have a long way to go in terms of balance and overall feel. I find it interesting how difficult it is to deal with cascading changes in World of Warcraft, because of how much history the game has and how many separate mechanics work in tandem. Ghostcrawler is definitely trying to feel out the community for reactions to the way interrupting works, and after the mage debacles in PvP over instant-cast spells, it would be nice to see casters mostly casting again.
Dev Watercooler seems like it is going to be a great new column on the WoW community site, and I'm very much looking forward to the next one. I hope Ghostcrawler takes my suggestion and blogs about gold next. I do so love gold discussions ...
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm has destroyed Azeroth as we know it; nothing is the same! In WoW Insider's Guide to Cataclysm, you can find out everything you need to know about WoW's third expansion, from leveling up a new goblin or worgen to breaking news and strategies on endgame play.






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Fadmin Mar 29th 2011 3:04PM
Quote: Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer on World of Warcraft. He knows how to get to R'lyeh.
Perhaps, but does he know actually know the way?
Kojin Mar 30th 2011 2:25PM
... yes?
MattKrotzer Mar 29th 2011 3:11PM
Love the header image.
Moon Man Mar 29th 2011 3:12PM
Wait...people still play this game?
Baba Mar 29th 2011 3:36PM
You bet your lonely FPS ass I do :)
toofat2serve Mar 29th 2011 3:57PM
12 million of us, yeah. You don't have to though. Really.
Grovinofdarkhour Mar 29th 2011 4:12PM
And you're here because.... ?
Imnick Mar 29th 2011 4:14PM
Wait, people who don't play this game still read websites about it?
Fragments Mar 29th 2011 10:39PM
I'm going to sick Anonymous on you and find out who you are. Then I'm going to stalk you. Then I'm going to find all your friends and family.
Then I'm going to tell them you voluntarily signed up for an account on a website which blogs about World of Warcraft.
Zayd Mar 29th 2011 3:16PM
I choose to read between the lines that somewhere in that article GC subliminally promised to give me a small horse.
mrmojoz Mar 29th 2011 4:23PM
Your WHOLE face is dumb then, troll. The tiny horse is clearly mine.
Kaphik Mar 29th 2011 4:27PM
A small horse with a really long cooldown on his Kick.
RetPallyJil Mar 29th 2011 3:21PM
On the off-chance he's reading these replies too, let me add:
Make six trees available. For example, Paladin Protection PvE and Paladin Protection PvP. Keep the versions of abilities that work best in each situation.
Make bgs inaccessible to anyone without a PvP spec. That way you don't have to keep destroying the PvE game when catering to the PvPers.
emberdione Mar 29th 2011 3:34PM
Or better yet, much like the priest spell Chastise changes depending on your chakra state, every spell needs to shift when flagged for pvp.
Both can have balance without ruining the other. Trying to make everyone happy in the same spell is just making no one happy.
Drakkenfyre Mar 29th 2011 3:35PM
Wow, they have a hard enuf time balancing three, I think 6 would make it hell for them. Even changing up the abilities, it would create confusion in new players. They already simplified the trees and put an explanation on them, so new players don't just randomly pick whatever, or don't pick at all.
And limiting BG's would just confuse the hell out of new players. Remember, they have been making changes to keep new players, not turn them away.
Hrothgar Mar 29th 2011 3:52PM
With most, if not all of the real talent working on Titan, there's no chance of something like this happening. We're lucky they have a few devs still avail to work on cosmetic stuff and a couple of re-vamped dungeons/raids.
Oldbear Mar 29th 2011 3:55PM
That's what Dual Spec is for. I play on a PVP server. I PVP and PVE - you learn to use what your given.
mhm Mar 29th 2011 4:47PM
and what about those of us on a pvp server......
Eirik Mar 29th 2011 6:42PM
I hate to say this, but the whole "separate out PvE powers from PvP powers", which is what you're advocating by doubling the talent trees, has already been looked at. And it makes learning the game very much harder.
If the behavior of an ability is different in PvP vs PvE, you're giving the player a second thing he has to learn how to deal with, regardless of whether it's a separate power, or a separate behavior of the same power. (The latter, mind, is already in use, making for more complicated tooltips...)
Think of the problems of the Arms warrior that takes up tanking only once he reaches 85 and wants to go into heroics. Now double it. Now, apply it to every character in the game that wants to see how life is on the other side of the Pv? fence.
Noyou Mar 29th 2011 7:24PM
You know what? There is a tier for you. It's called rated BG's or arena. Or if you are that hardcore roll on a PvP realm. I'm tired of people with their pseudo elitist mentality in normal BG's especially if you are not in the 85 bracket. People PvP (especially TB and wintergrasp) for lots of reasons. None of which are to satisfy your every whim. In my opinion that makes it a little more fun/challenging. When I PvP I like going up against regular folks like myself who may or may not be geared to the 9s. I am one of the few who probably does have a PvP spec on every toon. But I would never want to force everyone to do so. This ain't China- yet.
As for the 6 trees? I'm hoping I will be long gone from wow before that happens. Once again if you are that hard core PvP roll another toon for PvP. Leveling is as easy as it's ever been right now (and only going to get easier I'm sure). Or you know you can create you own game :)