Ghostcrawler chats about interrupts at the Dev Watercooler

In his first Dev Watercooler, Ghostcrawler talks about interrupts, where interrupt mechanics are going, and what he hopes they can look like over time.
Dev Watercooler -- Rude Interruptions
'Dev Watercooler' is a blog series that provides an inside look into the thoughts and discussions happening within the World of Warcraft development team. In our first entry, Lead Systems Designer Greg "Ghostctrawler" Street laid down a few ground rules:
1. No promises are being made in these Dev Watercooler blogs.
2. Don't read too much between the lines.
3. No complaints about the topic not being what you want to see covered.
Are spellcast interrupt abilities, such as Kick, too good? It's easy to make that argument. We think their ease of use and low cooldown has led to a whole cascade of events in PvP. Because interrupts are so good, casters without a lot of instant spells or mobility are weak. For that reason, we tend to give casters a lot of instant spells or movement abilities, and casters who excel at those (say, Frost mages) are very powerful, while those without (say, Elemental shaman) have more difficulty.
Because interrupts are good, classes without them feel uncompetitive, which has led to us giving interrupts to paladins and druids, which in turn has led to them being even more prevalent. Because casters tend to fire off lots of instant spells while jumping around, melee can be really easy to kite. Because melee can be easy to kite, melee classes without strong mobility can suffer, and we have to consider giving high mobility to all melee, which increases the amount of uptime melee have on casters, which means we have to give casters even more powerful escape mechanisms to survive... and the arms race continues.
See where I'm going with this? Because instant spells tend to be so powerful, we have to make cast time spells insanely powerful to compete or they'll never see use in PvP. But we have to make those spells so powerful that when they do get off, we can have PvP burst issues. (Look at how much better Frostbolt has to be than Ice Lance for mages to even consider the "long" cast.)
Nerfing all of the interrupts across the board isn't the kind of thing we can realistically do mid-expansion. Anyone working on the raid content can tell you how important interrupts are to today's encounter design. We'd have to redesign nearly all of the raid encounters and many of the dungeon encounters as well. Of course once you increase the cooldown on interrupts, then availability of stuns gains relative power, so you have that balance consideration as well.
Instant spells do have their place in the game. If you're worried about being interrupted because someone is chasing you, or you are chasing them, that's a great time to use an instant spell. But actual 2.5 sec cast time spells need to have their place too and, if anything, they should be the norm.
Here's one other way in which interrupts have wide-reaching effects on the game via the chain of consequences discussed above. One of the advantages melee used to have in PvE was on movement fights. If the boss has to be kited or stays in motion, the rogues and warriors can follow along and still deal damage. It will be less damage for sure, but they'll still get a lot of auto attacks in. It used to be the case that asking the Balance druid or Fire mage to move was a huge dps loss for them, because they were always interrupting their spells. In today's PvE environment, that role has almost flipped. Many casters can shoot on the run and take only a very minimal DPS hit to do so. For this reason (and a few others) melee classes can feel like a liability on certain encounters. We'd prefer for raids to want a fairly even distribution of ranged to melee classes and ideally groups would have a lot of flexibility in who they bring. It's okay to have fights that are really good for casters, but there need to be at least a couple that feel great for melee as well.
Is there a design lesson to learn here? I guess it's some variant of the butterfly effect -- apparently innocuous designs (in this case the short cooldown on interrupt abilities) can have wide-ranging effects on all aspects of the game. I'm not sure what the game would look like if Pummel and Kick and Wind Shear had 30 second cooldowns. Clearly we'd have to redesign a lot of other abilities, mechanics, and numbers to make it work. Again, this isn't a change you'll see anytime soon. But it might feel better in the long run if we could get to that point.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer on World of Warcraft. He knows how to get to R'lyeh.
1. No promises are being made in these Dev Watercooler blogs.
2. Don't read too much between the lines.
3. No complaints about the topic not being what you want to see covered.
Are spellcast interrupt abilities, such as Kick, too good? It's easy to make that argument. We think their ease of use and low cooldown has led to a whole cascade of events in PvP. Because interrupts are so good, casters without a lot of instant spells or mobility are weak. For that reason, we tend to give casters a lot of instant spells or movement abilities, and casters who excel at those (say, Frost mages) are very powerful, while those without (say, Elemental shaman) have more difficulty.
Because interrupts are good, classes without them feel uncompetitive, which has led to us giving interrupts to paladins and druids, which in turn has led to them being even more prevalent. Because casters tend to fire off lots of instant spells while jumping around, melee can be really easy to kite. Because melee can be easy to kite, melee classes without strong mobility can suffer, and we have to consider giving high mobility to all melee, which increases the amount of uptime melee have on casters, which means we have to give casters even more powerful escape mechanisms to survive... and the arms race continues.
See where I'm going with this? Because instant spells tend to be so powerful, we have to make cast time spells insanely powerful to compete or they'll never see use in PvP. But we have to make those spells so powerful that when they do get off, we can have PvP burst issues. (Look at how much better Frostbolt has to be than Ice Lance for mages to even consider the "long" cast.)
Nerfing all of the interrupts across the board isn't the kind of thing we can realistically do mid-expansion. Anyone working on the raid content can tell you how important interrupts are to today's encounter design. We'd have to redesign nearly all of the raid encounters and many of the dungeon encounters as well. Of course once you increase the cooldown on interrupts, then availability of stuns gains relative power, so you have that balance consideration as well.
Instant spells do have their place in the game. If you're worried about being interrupted because someone is chasing you, or you are chasing them, that's a great time to use an instant spell. But actual 2.5 sec cast time spells need to have their place too and, if anything, they should be the norm.
Here's one other way in which interrupts have wide-reaching effects on the game via the chain of consequences discussed above. One of the advantages melee used to have in PvE was on movement fights. If the boss has to be kited or stays in motion, the rogues and warriors can follow along and still deal damage. It will be less damage for sure, but they'll still get a lot of auto attacks in. It used to be the case that asking the Balance druid or Fire mage to move was a huge dps loss for them, because they were always interrupting their spells. In today's PvE environment, that role has almost flipped. Many casters can shoot on the run and take only a very minimal DPS hit to do so. For this reason (and a few others) melee classes can feel like a liability on certain encounters. We'd prefer for raids to want a fairly even distribution of ranged to melee classes and ideally groups would have a lot of flexibility in who they bring. It's okay to have fights that are really good for casters, but there need to be at least a couple that feel great for melee as well.
Is there a design lesson to learn here? I guess it's some variant of the butterfly effect -- apparently innocuous designs (in this case the short cooldown on interrupt abilities) can have wide-ranging effects on all aspects of the game. I'm not sure what the game would look like if Pummel and Kick and Wind Shear had 30 second cooldowns. Clearly we'd have to redesign a lot of other abilities, mechanics, and numbers to make it work. Again, this isn't a change you'll see anytime soon. But it might feel better in the long run if we could get to that point.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer on World of Warcraft. He knows how to get to R'lyeh.
Personally, I agree with Ghostcrawler -- interrupts are one of those mechanics that have a long way to go in terms of balance and overall feel. I find it interesting how difficult it is to deal with cascading changes in World of Warcraft, because of how much history the game has and how many separate mechanics work in tandem. Ghostcrawler is definitely trying to feel out the community for reactions to the way interrupting works, and after the mage debacles in PvP over instant-cast spells, it would be nice to see casters mostly casting again.
Dev Watercooler seems like it is going to be a great new column on the WoW community site, and I'm very much looking forward to the next one. I hope Ghostcrawler takes my suggestion and blogs about gold next. I do so love gold discussions ...
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 5)
GhostWhoWalks Mar 29th 2011 7:43PM
Not quite. The butterfly effect is when an action has unintended consequences, not consequences that have no clear connection to their cause.
The common metaphor of "a butterfly flapping its wings can cause a hurricane on the other side of the world" isn't that there is no logical reason why a hurricane would be caused by a butterfly, it's that a single action can create a cascade of events that results in something happening miles away that SEEMS unrelated. A better metaphor, in fact, would be "the kingdom was lost for want of a nail"; making one tiny change can set off a chain reaction that throws everything else out of whack.
The domino effect is similar, but the chain reaction and resulting effects are all intended.
Nimdriel Mar 29th 2011 7:07PM
In regards to interrupts...I think one possible solution would be keeping the cooldowns low but applying a debuff of sorts to player characters interrupted that prevents them from being interrupted by the same player again (as in the spell would fail if attempted to recast). That way they effectively keep the quick cool downs for PVE raid/dungeon design while reducing the extreme number of interrupts in Arena/Battlegrounds (as a mage I'd actually be happy to cast something other than ice lance...or maybe even play some other spec besides frost but alas not at this moment in PVP).
Lemons Mar 29th 2011 7:58PM
The whole "interrupts are too strong" argument just baffles me. It really does. It seems like it's coming out of left field because interrupts are the same now as they've been since vanilla. The only difference is now more classes have access to them.
This is what I'm thinking...casters that never learned how to juke or even how to cast properly are finally feeling the full fury of interrupts because interrupts are being streamlined in a manner that literally every single melee class/spec in the game has access to them. A caster who actually knows how to play should see no difference because he knows that a. You should never cast anything against a melee in range of their interrupt if you can help it and b. if you do have to cast something then you should juke first and then cast. And honestly with the plethora of instant spells available to every single caster class in this game I don't see that there's an absolute need to cast something unless you're a healer and you're trying to keep your team alive, and even that can be done primarily with instant spells nowadays.
In my mind it's bad casters are whining. I can see the issue with something like Wind Shear...a ranged interrupt on a low cooldown, but most interrupts require melee range and even then you have to be quick enough to interrupt whatever the caster is casting.
I would really like a caster to explain this to me because so far I just don't see what the problem is.
Eldoron Mar 30th 2011 5:37AM
There isn't. Casters have good time in both PvE and PvP. While melee needs to run with the boss/ away from the boss / back to the boss, etc, casters just TURN and keep standing in one place. Hunters even have more advantage now as they can still auto-attack while running, plus use instants.
Even in 5 man HCs, it feels like tanks don't understand melee and they just move the boss around because they feel like that. People can say my reaction time is bad, but by the time I notice that the boss is out of melee-range, and I move back to it, I can lose important seconds
Sorcha Mar 30th 2011 10:27AM
I don't mind interrupts on their own so much as a healer; you can tell when you're going up against a bad player because you're not being interrupted. Heck if every single class had one interrupt on a similar cooldown I wouldn't mind because it would be a bit more equal in terms of skill and judgement (in my mind anyway.) I don't mind rogues so much now, for example, because they can interrupt me a lot but their stunlock capabilities have been nerfed a bit so that seems fairer. What gets on my nerves are (oh yes) frost mages who can sit at range, stun me and do huge damage and then interrupt me and silence me. I know I need to be a better player to defeat them, but I feel like I'm not going to get a chance to learn because they've got these tools.
Basically I think it's fair enough that melee inerrupt but casters being able to do is BS because they're already getting the 'don't need to be in melee range' advantage.
Coldbear Mar 29th 2011 8:32PM
Interrupts on a 1min or 30s cooldown works for me.
Hard-casting spells should be an option and commonly used. All this ice lance and instant-cast DoTs gets old.
istaro Mar 29th 2011 9:32PM
I'm curious about what people think of the Guild Wars 2 solution, which is to make all abilities usable while moving, regardless of whether they have a cast time or not. In other words, all spells are Scorch w/Firestarter.
So instead of melee having two advantages (can't be interrupted and can attack while moving) and ranged having one advantage (can attack from outside melee range), they each have one. Remains to be seen how it works, though.
Khirsah Mar 30th 2011 2:50AM
Not a bad idea to make more spells usable when moving, but I think all of them might be overkill.
Or maybe something like a cast time penalty if certain spells are cast while moving. Just a slight penalty that would make casters want to use those spells if the opportunity presented itself, but give melee a chance to break LoS or attempt to close the distance for the interrupt. Either way, both players would have a choice to make, and may make for some interesting battles. The caster is choosing whether he has enough distance to get the spell off before I can use sprint and catch him. I'm deciding if I can catch him with sprint, or if I should pop CoS or try to find cover.
Just an idea
taure Apr 20th 2011 8:37PM
"...So instead of melee having two advantages (can't be interrupted and can attack while moving) and ranged having one advantage (can attack from outside melee range), they each have one..."
Melee can't be interrupted? That's called "out of melee range" & CC. Besides when you think of it, at the start of any confrontation with a melee and a caster, the caster can blast away until he gets interrupted and the melee is interrupted until he can finally blast away.
shammowh Mar 29th 2011 10:26PM
RIP elemental shaman PvP
Yvl Mar 29th 2011 10:47PM
Whoa. They'd really better not nerf my kick. It was there for me when I was frustrated with my class' lack of raid utility, when I thought that the devs wanted us to be a shallow, one-sided class. I have Cloak of Shadows now too, but Kick holds a special place in my heart for guiding me through that moment of doubt about my class which I love so much.
Khirsah Mar 30th 2011 3:00AM
Kick is only the tip of the iceberg. If they truly nerf interrupts, they would also have to look at Gouge, Blind, KS, Vanish/ShD + CS, and as you mentioned CoS. Rogues have a ton of abilities that can be used to interrupt. If all of them get nerfed, we'll be in a bad way.
Eldoron Mar 30th 2011 5:17AM
Rogue tears are sweet to me. One of the most (or maybe the most) imba classes since Wow's day 1.
Krytture Mar 30th 2011 8:53AM
I would love nothing more then the bathe in a rogues tears..
Lemons Apr 4th 2011 5:08AM
@Eldoron If we really were imba then we wouldn't be the least played class in the game.
Yvl Apr 4th 2011 2:51PM
We're certainly the most LIMITED class in the game, hands down. Interrupts are what little we have other than damage to make us a more appealing raid choice. It would be a reversal of the path they're taking to make more classes more viable for more situations in the area the most untouched by that policy, and those are tears that wouldn't just be wept by rogues.
Besides, this rogue doesn't PvP, so look for tears elsewhere.
DarkWalker Mar 30th 2011 8:37AM
One idea: make interrupts not always the right thing to do.
Give each spec that is vulnerable to interrupts some kind of defensive cast (be it a channeled spell, an instance, a short duration buff, whatever) that is either below or equal in DPS to casting instant spells, but will do a good chunk of damage, some CC effect, or both, on whoever tries to interrupt it.
It has already been done with dispels (Unstable Affliction), I don't see why it couldn't be done for interrupts also.
This is how DCUO balances it's PvP; charged attacks beat blocks, lunges beat charged attacks, blocks beat lunges. Thanks to that, if one player knows how to really play the game, he can consistently beat other players 15 levels above that just spam attacks without adjusting to the opposition (so much, there is complaints by some PvPers that the tiered PvP gear makes too little difference; for me, having skill more important than gear is a HUGE advantage in a game).
DarkWalker Mar 30th 2011 8:38AM
* stance, not instance.
Spelling fail.
Larentiah Mar 30th 2011 9:05AM
Personally I'd like to see 4 talent trees - one to mess with each spec, and a pvp spec. Just an idea! (;
Puntable Mar 30th 2011 10:49AM
"If the boss has to be kited or stays in motion, the rogues and warriors can follow along and still deal damage. It will be less damage for sure, but they'll still get a lot of auto attacks in"
That part confuses me. I can't think of any ability that a Rogue cannot use while moving.