The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Cataclysm tanking, part 3

A week or so ago, while I was planning out this series of posts about tanking in Cataclysm, our old friend (well, okay, I've never met nor spoken to him) Ghostcrawler (lead systems designer) had some interesting things to say about the current state of hit and expertise for tanks. I wasn't able to immediately address them because I'd already written out what would be published, and so I had to wait until this column to talk about the history of hit and expertise for tanks in previous expansions and what the current state of the art is.
As warriors, we've been grappling with hit and expertise for years now. Why, you may ask, are they suddenly less viable for tanks than they were during Wrath? Well, believe it or not, hit and expertise have become less compelling for tanks entirely because of two big quality of life changes for tanks: the removal of parry hasting and taunt miss chance.
Detailing the shift
As GC himself points out, tanks working on new content will almost always make the trade-off between threat and survivability in favor of survivability. Tank deaths are often the end of an attempt on a boss, while in most cases, a loss of threat can be compensated for by taunting or threat drop abilities. It's hard to fault a tank for wanting to make the healer's job easier, especially now that mana is once again an issue in raid tanking and Vengeance exists to make threat less of an issue as time goes by.
Now, it's not the stated design goal of Vengeance to reduce threat issues as a fight goes on. It exists instead to keep tank threat comparable with DPS threat as DPS goes up, and it was designed to counteract situations like we saw in late Wrath when DPS was simply putting out so much more damage than tanks that threat became extremely touch-and-go without rogue and hunter threat handouts to tanks. Vengeance is in fact well-designed for that goal.
However, an inescapable side effect of Vengeance's design is that it ramps up as a fight progresses, and after it reaches its full extent, it can account for a great deal of attack power (10% of the health of a raid-buffed 10-man tank is 174,000/10 = 17,400 AP). Now, in order to reach this level of Vengeance, you'll need to take more than enough damage to kill you several times over, but that will happen while healing any raid boss attempt anyway. The stack will of course fluctuate as you hit an avoidance streak or tank swap or what have you. The point is, however, Vengeance serves to compensate for a lack of hit or expertise because after a time, when you as a tank do hit what you are tanking, you hit like a truck and can afford to have a few strikes be misses, dodges or parries.
Combine this with the fact that you no longer have to worry about your taunts missing and you don't have to worry about a boss parrying one of your attacks and getting to hit you back faster as a result, and you can see why hit and expertise simply aren't as impressive to survival-oriented tanks. If you're part of a disciplined group that watches its threat and doesn't pull aggro often, and you know you can rely on taunt to get it back in most cases anyway, then gearing for threat over gearing for not going splat simply isn't compelling.

For warrior tanks, another issue that compounds this situation is our tanking mastery, Critical Block, and how it works alongside Shield Specialization. Essentially, the protection mastery specialization and the Shield Spec talent work together to generate threat, because as a protection warrior gets more mastery, he blocks more often, and as he blocks more often, he generates more rage (5 per block). More rage means more threat because the vast majority of rage-using tanking abilities are direct threat generation moves. So as the protection warrior stacks mastery to increase his or her block rate (thus reducing damage incoming), he or she also gains more rage (and thus, more threat) without having to worry as much about hit or expertise. This ignores the fact that the very act of generating rage at all currently also generates threat. Test it out by using Battle or Commanding Shout after someone else in your party pulls sometime.
So what we have is a bit of a cascade: Hit and expertise only work as threat generation stats now, at a time when a desire for survival is at an all-time high for tanks who want to push content and new mechanics make other abilities and stats do more work. Hit and expertise fall behind in desirability as tanking stats when compared to dodge, parry, and armor (purely avoidance or mitigation) or mastery (which becomes a triple threat, increasing avoidance/mitigation and rage generation, thus threat generation). In essence, with the occasional miss compensated for by Vengeance and mastery's rage gen, and being parried now no worse than missing or being dodged, a warrior tank who wants to make healing easier has no compelling reason to gear otherwise.
Beefing up hit and expertise for tanks
So what's the answer? Well, Ghostcrawler suggested one (and please keep in mind that this is a very speculative suggestion) -- namely, making hit affect Shield Block. When I read this, I recoiled in horror, but after two weeks of considering it I have to admit it makes a consistent, logical sense for a warrior to need to precisely position his or her shield in order to fully block an incoming attack. The problem I have with it is that it's an indirect way of having hit modify a purely defensive move. Yes, hit is useful for DK tanks because Death Strike has to hit in order to heal the DK -- but warriors aren't DKs, and Shield Block doesn't heal a warrior tank.
Rather than apply hit so unevenly, I'd prefer to see what seems to me a more elegant solution, one based on expertise's old position as a mitigation stat. Since expertise reduced your chance to be parried, it reduced the chance the boss would parry-haste and hit you more often. So since hit reduces the chance you will be missed and expertise reduces the chance you will be dodged or parried, why not allow hit to also reduce the chance you will yourself be hit and allow expertise to add to your dodge and parry chance?
This could be accomplished in a number of ways. You could bake it into talents much as uncrittability was baked into various tanking talents; you could simply put it into the various tanking stances so that they automatically applied your hit and expertise to your miss and dodge and parry chances, or you could even have abilities that directly used hit and expertise to see how effective they are, à la the proposed Shield Block change. I like the idea of it being talent- or stance-based better, because it seems less punitive and more rewarding for the hit- and expertise-stacking tank. Balance would of course be an issue (expertise would have to have less defensive bang for the buck than dodge and parry currently do, as it also has an offensive bite they lack, for one example), but it's hardly insurmountable.
Heck, right now one race (night elves) have a flat 2% chance to be missed, a perfect tanking racial no one else can match. Making it so hit provides a form of that racial for every tank would go a long way toward making tanks like hit.
Next week, raid tanking.
Read: Cataclysm tanking, part 1
Read: Cataclysm tanking, part 2
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, News items, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
dirac Apr 2nd 2011 6:30PM
Your tanking articles make me want to abandon one of my two Fury specs and go back to tanking.
But then I remember that one group... that pug, in Stonecore, pre-nerf...
*rage*
Nitride Apr 3rd 2011 10:37PM
People don't like to tank since it requires a fair bit of concentraion (making sure you have threat, sometimes on multiple targets). Plus you are the default leader of dungeon PUGs, and if anything goes wrong you are blamed (unless the tank dies, then they blame the Healer).
Tanks don't want the abuse, and you aren't "winning" the DPS meter game either.
Even with near-instant queue times, there are shortages of tanks across the game. No one can force people to be tanks, they have to want to do it. And not many people want to do it.
meringue Apr 2nd 2011 6:51PM
But I like having the OP tanking racial for once! :'(
Mal Apr 2nd 2011 7:28PM
I had occurred to me that maybe hit could be rolled into block chance for tanks. Or they could combine hit and block altogether and have them do different things for different specs. Like mastery.
Dunno, just tossing out ideas. What do you think?
Mike Apr 2nd 2011 11:28PM
Honestly, I'm not a fan of making hit or expertise affect the other tanking stats that directly, as you or Rossi suggest. Say expertise raises your chance to dodge or parry. From a flavor perspective, I suppose it makes sense and could be an elegant solution. But from a game design angle - what's the point of having it? Two stats that affect the same thing? It just seems redundant, like adding Defense Rating back in, sans crit-reduction. Having dodge and parry effectively equally weighted as they are now can be compelling because you have to keep them to roughly equal amounts, to avoid diminishing returns as much as possible. Adding more to that, however, just sounds like it'd be muddled and unnecessary to me.
They need to be made desirable, but in their own way. Hopefully, Big Bad Blizz can think of an engaging way to do so, because I won't even pretend that I can; I'm totally clueless on this one.
Jeff Apr 2nd 2011 7:33PM
That doesn't make even the slightest bit of sense. Sure, it would even out the mechanics some, but conceptually? Why would a stat that makes it easier for me to correctly target my opponents' vulnerable areas _also_ make it easier for me to avoid getting hit, while tanking? Why would a stat that makes it easier for me to prevent my opponent from getting out of the way of my attacks or blocking them with their weapon or a shield or shield-analogue make it easier for me to block their attacks with _my_ weapon or shield, while tanking?
Very silly idea overall. Sorry.
cojury Apr 2nd 2011 7:53PM
+1
Zubasa Apr 2nd 2011 7:54PM
If you look at the name of the stat.
It is call Expertise rating, and it increase your potency of what ever you are wielding.
Don't you wield your shield on your off hand?
It only makes sense that expertise makes you an expert of predicting your enemy's moves thus letting you reduce the chance of the enemy parrying/dodging. By that logic expertise also makes you an expert of predicting an enemy's blow thus avoiding/mitigating it?
Grubba Apr 2nd 2011 7:58PM
I don't know that I'd go so far as calling it "silly," but it certainly seems counter to Blizzard's stated (though not always achieved) goal of making stats easy to understand.
tau Apr 2nd 2011 8:06PM
It's not really that silly of an idea if a warrior is in a fight do you think he blocks every single hit ?? The finer details obviously would need to be figured out but they would have to implement something for Druids, I think the concept is neat but how to go about it so your not op and blocking everything
Alf Apr 2nd 2011 8:38PM
honestly id prefer old defense rating back that having to deal with 2 new stats, i mean its already hard to keep yourself alive in raids, leave my shield alone.
on a second topic... whats with all these BE warriors pics??? lol @ them
GrandOldDuke Apr 2nd 2011 8:52PM
While it sounds like it would be awesome to have talents that make hit and expertise pull double-duty and add to our survivability... what's the point? If the goal is just to make tanks want to put part of their stat budget into those two stats, sure, it does that, but... that's a pretty half-assed goal. You're not making those stats desirable for what they're already supposed to be doing, so again... what's the point?
If you want hit and expertise to matter, you need a harder consequence to missed attacks. Not suggesting bringing back parry-haste, that was awful, but... make threat stats matter for threat, rather than just making them into another mitigation stat. Make threat matter beyond the first 30 seconds of a fight. Hopefully in a way that's not too punitive and distracting, but...
The only thing I can think of off the top of my head that might be a good consequence, would be if Vengeance actually decayed on missed attacks. How much it would need to decay for anyone to even notice the difference, I don't know; that's quite a mathy problem, I suppose. But I think it would give you a sliding scale of how important hit and expertise are, rather than just making them into 'CAP OR DIE' stats.
Irin Apr 3rd 2011 2:33AM
I like that idea. By tying hit and/or expertise into vengeance is fair to all tanks and would restore their desirability.
Schadow Apr 3rd 2011 3:56PM
There are already some mechanics that punish misses. Paladin tanks do not gain Holy Power when an attack misses. This mucks up the 939 rotation and impacts how often we can use Word of Glory and/or how powerful it is when we use it.
However, if you gear for hit/expertise to increase WoG, you give up defensive stats, so it's counter-productive to the goal of reducing healer mana required.
I really don't like not having hit and expertise a tank. I would like to spec into more because it just "feels" better not to miss so much.
Elrandir Apr 2nd 2011 9:26PM
Personally I think they should nerf vengeance and buff our threat modifiers or damage of tanks a bit so hit and expertise are still valuable, and nerf the damage a bit that bosses / crazy mobs do, what's the point of having huge health pools if we're taking 50% hits etc, I just don't get the cataclysm desgin.
I don't like having to drop hit and expertise all together, I play all four tanks but our broken-off-from-another-guild guild is having real trouble getting a raid group together, and taking pugs has been redonculously bad, so I'm mostly still tanking heroics with them (and normals with my warrior still). We were 11/12 icc as we started raiding late wotlk expac (ks after 4.0, lol) and it's kinda sad we can't get a raid team together yet. As i'm mostly doing five mans I like to have a decent amount of expertise (15+) and hit (around 5%) just to enjoy myself a bit more (especially for dk ofc). I couldn't stand to miss or get parried/dodged even more, it's just silly as a tank creating threat, it doesn't feel right having my attacks miss/avoided/mitigated this much.
Mike Apr 2nd 2011 9:42PM
Can you refer ne to any resources on tanking why leveling? I've been DPS player for years and when I've tried to tank with a dual spec at end game it didn't go all that well. So decided I'd role a tank from scratch and level him exclusively as a tnk in instances. Most of the reference materials, even the 101 articles here, seem geared to a fully leveled character. Is there anything geared towards a new, leveling tank?
Karcharos Apr 2nd 2011 11:21PM
Part one:
http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/01/22/the-care-and-feeding-of-warriors-protection-warrior-101/
Part two:
http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/01/30/the-care-and-feeding-of-warriors-protection-warrior-101-tale/
I think the value of some talents has changed since those, though. This is the spec I've been running with for the last while, which reminds me I need to respec. And use heroic strike more when appropriate. 90% of the time I'm cleaving (5-man tank). Incite is "Why Bother" at 1 pt.
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LGZbbZsfGdRRobbu
Blood & Thunder is awesome.
In general, playing protection from 1-85 will teach you the toolbox very, very well.
DBNM Apr 2nd 2011 9:49PM
Something that I feel several people aren't thinking about is the long term trend in dps scaling versus the long term trend in tank health scaling. These are only things that Blizzard really knows because they have goals/figures in mind, but the issue of vengeance eliminating the need to gear for threat stats might be something that we only have to deal with for this tier or the subsequent one.
At the moment stamina stacking as a gearing method is dead because it turns you into a mana sponge, and its possible that this paradigm will not change. If this constant holds true then health values will not rise astronomically as the expansion matures AND AS A CONSEQUENCE NEITHER WILL THE AP BUFF FROM VENGEANCE. With vengeance's contribution to threat diminishing it is possible that player dps will increase at an increasing rate and threat will increase at a decreasing rate, leading to an equilibrium where at the end of the expansion tanks will shift from a survivability mind set to one of adding some threat stats to deal with the issue.
This is of course speculation and it involves a lot of assumptions, but in theory it could happen. But as anecdotal evidence: remember when 3.1 dropped and Blizzard decided to nerf Titan's Grip? Adding the infamous 10% damage reduction. There stated reason for doing this was to hold back fury warrior dps because of scaling. Now remember back to the end of wrath when warriors could get 100% ArP, infinite rage, and basically spanked non-warriors like little school girls they are on the dps meters? Maybe the same thing will happen in regards to player dps versus vengeance. Basically I'm saying lets just wait and see.
Grubba Apr 3rd 2011 12:49AM
And the big thing you aren't thinking about here is that stamina levels are going to increase with higher-level gear regardless of whether or not tanks are deliberately stacking stamina. This is why Vengeance will continue to scale with gear just as DPS and healing scale with gear.
Jabadabadana Apr 3rd 2011 9:35PM
This was taken into account
"At the moment stamina stacking as a gearing method is dead because it turns you into a mana sponge, and its possible that this paradigm will not change. If this constant holds true then health values will not rise astronomically as the expansion matures"
This assumes you aren't stacking the hell out of stamina, which means all you get is the stamina from iLevel increase. Until we get epic gems, there isn't going to be a large shift on ilevel alone. Remember, that they're going up 13 points, which is all of 1 more than in Wrath. We went from 25-60k over 4 tiers. If we get 50k hp more now, than when we started raiding, we will get a 30-40% hp boost over 3-4 tiers. DPS in Wrath went up from 3-4k in nax, to 15-20k in ICC, or a multiple of Five!
This is the difference that is being worried about.