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4-06-2011 @ 9:43PM
Is anyone else worried that now even more sub-par tanks will be queuing up just to get a shot at the mount, just like they do for quicker queue times?
4-06-2011 @ 9:45PM
No. They still have to complete the dungeon, so if they arent good enough, they will get kicked (or will just fail)
I'm not really worried, but I'm sure that's what will happen. Since many of these rewards are obtainable other ways I'm not sure what motivation that is for people who are already tanking.
4-06-2011 @ 9:58PM
@Toy: Because as a geared 85 prot/fury warrior, I can easily solo Heroic UP, Heroic MT, Kara and East Strath for the mounts, but they're all *way* the hell out of my way and everything I get in there is essentially vendor trash for me.The only upgrades I can get now (as a non-raider) is VP gear, ad because I don't raid there's not much incentive to random as a tank if it's not a guild run. Tanking for pugs does not help me unwind after work.I wonder how they plan to handle people queuing as a tank/heals, then zoning in and going "LOLSRY, I clicked wrong box. U tank wrrur." (Although, TBH, I've never personally encountered this despite winding up taking over as tank about 40% of the time).
IMO the motivation is extra stuff when the system gets them queue after the first daily random or to queue solo.
4-06-2011 @ 10:08PM
Yes. As a healer, I have a feeling I am going to be pressed to carry even more tanks with reforged DPS and/or PVP gear. I appreciate what Blizzard is trying to do with this, but I do not hold out high hopes for this working well, at least in the beginning.Also, it does not explicitly state it, but I assume that if a DPS drops and the "tank" re-queues as DPS, then the benefit would no longer apply. Otherwise, I could see a bunch of plate DPS queuing up as a tank in the hopes that a DPS would drop group after a trash wipe or two and the "tank" could re-queue as DPS.
4-06-2011 @ 10:32PM
Maybe, but EVERY tank was sub par to some degree at one point. If you want more tanks and less queue time, then maybe you should be putting up with some of them learning and maybe stumbling here and there. The sometimes knee-jerk/raging/elitist reaction of ZOMGYURFAIL booting them from the group is not always the best way to handle the situation. How else are they supposed to get better and with that reaction to a mistake, why the @$#! would they ever want to try again?Anything that may make someone give it a try and increase the amount of people willing to tank is a good thing. I've never been booted for bad tanking, but the overall attitude of the general public is what makes me not want to do it anymore.(I'm using "you" not as you specifically, but meaning the dps population at large)
4-06-2011 @ 10:54PM
@Saeadame I have no problem with tanks that are learning and state that. I find it to be by far the exception rather than the rule. It has been much more common for me, as a healer, to get an under geared tank that doesn't know his class (i.e. doesn't use cooldowns, doesn't interrupt) just rush in a pull with no CC, drop dead and complain about "wtf where were my heals?". Or maybe just keep running and chain pulling without bothering to look at where the healer is or if they need mana. The truth is that a good tank is determined way more by awareness and learning both fight mechanics and their own class skills than it is by gear. I recall one time in LK an all guild group I was in pugged a tank for a random. We got HOR and the tank was a fresh dinged 80. He stated upfront that he was new to tanking and didn't know if he had the gear to tank HOR. We said no problem, walked him through it. Completely clean kill and got the guy the achievements too. I hope this change sees more people tanking who are willing to learn the ropes. I'll continue to help everyone I meet. I'm not optimistic that will be the case however.
4-06-2011 @ 11:05PM
I think this additionally provides a big incentive for tanks & heals to drop struggling groups even faster (even when they're the problem), so they can requeue for faster loot bags.
4-06-2011 @ 11:09PM
@TheUsualSuspect I agree, so many times as a healer I've encountered tanks who've told the group they were new only to be kicked out, have important people leave or have the DPS rush things making the situation worse. Getting into tanking gearwise is much easier than it was in BC but the issue has now switched to players' attitudes rather than gear.
4-06-2011 @ 11:48PM
I play a tank. I love tanking. I love the challenge of maintaining aggro, of keeping mobs from running amok, keeping people alive. It's more interesting to me than DPS. I like healing too, though not so much now as in TBC...which will always be my favourite healing era.That said, I do not like tanking PuGs. Why would I tank PuGs when there are perfectly nice people in my guild? On my server? Friends I've made in four years of playing who would gratefully take a tank to avoid a long queue?I'd rather tank for a group of undergeared people who can type out "Vanista" instead of a group of geared people who go "Hey Tank!"I'd rather explain fights to someone who's never seen them or help carry an undergeared friend than deal with a bunch of strangers telling me to go-go-go.Like Stuf, situational awareness is a big thing. I'd rather have people who are waiting the 20 seconds for my cooldowns to reset (being as I'm still sort of squishy) than others who would be rude to me. I'd rather wait for the healer to have mana than not, but am not willing to put up with rude DPS when I do so.The problem isn't tanking. People who play tanks generally do it because it's fun for them. The problem isn't healers, who are by far the nicest people I've had the pleasure of playing this game with.The problem is rude players, period. And most rude players are DPS* -- the people who've never taken the challenge of healing or tanking on and don't understand it's not just point, click, and collect loot.So yeah. A fancy mount? I don't even have epic flying. :P Elixirs, flasks? Who cares? Hours playing with nice people, good friends? That's #winning.**Note: There are rude healers, there are rude tanks. I've met them, I've hated them equally :)
4-07-2011 @ 5:02AM
@Shryndael - well said.I almost only ever PuG and my main has both specs tankadin. I look forward to a reward for what I do anyway, but I worry about how PuGs will treat tanks in this new paradigm. Certain pulls are hard in PuGs because people have already lost their respect for Cata heroics, I see a lot of people not following kill orders, using CC etc... and then blaming me when they get red pasted. If they are expecting a off spec DPS and the pull goes haywire I hope it doesn't just encourage kicking as there will be another one along in a sec anyway.I hope this doesnt happen, but I worry it may.
4-07-2011 @ 4:52AM
I can understand peoples frustration at the fact that there will be a huge influx of Plate Melee trying to respec/queue/reforge in order to get the new "goodies". However, people should remember why it has come to this in the first place.Having leveled ALL tank and healer classes to 85, and gained a great deal of experience in raids/instances since vanilla, I can catergorically say that the main reason for Tanks/Healers refusing to 'PUG' it, is the fact that they are subjected to a great deal of abuse. I consider myself as a pretty thick skinned person, but I have reached a point where i will not even consider Pugging it, even for the daily! The LFG/LFD tools are very good, however because of the cross realm system, it allows people to safely sit behind there keyboard, knowing that within 30mins they can be back in there own realm safe and sound free from any backlash, and so they can bully/abuse/harrass to their hearts content! I know that alot of it comes from immaturity and frustration, but sometimes it just pure malice. One recent example was in HC DM the other day. The tank and dps shammy were guildies, who continually vented the ususal bile of "gogogogo, noob, etc etc" aswell as unleashing all their fury at the poor DPS warrior, who altho lacking DPS, was doing his part. At the end of the instance, 2 of us were dead after the boss went down, and both the tank(pala) and shammy refused to res people, because they claimed a bug stopped them casting the spell on players with less than 5k dps....., and then refused to loot the boss or leave the dungeon until we had left the group...This sort of behaviour is becoming all to commonplace, and the fact that as a Tank/Healer, one is subjected to MORE on a daily basis due to the fact that you can complete more instances. It gets to a stage where enough is enough, and you stop doing the pugs. Yes of course, the whole 'Guild Party' thing is encouraged, but for some it just isn't viable, and the LFG/LFD is the only way to progress. Perhaps an answer to this is for Blizzard to pay more attention to some of the abuse/harrasment reports that are submitted, and take firmer action against repeat offenders, AND, make it publicly known to the community that players have been dealt with, in order to deter this behaviour. This will either have an effect on peoples attitudes, and make them see the error of their ways, or at the very least, just deter them from queueing due to the threat of Bans etc.I applaud Blizzard on addressing the issue of long queue times, and wish them all the best in this venture, however they do need to address the underlying issues that are causing the 'Long Queues'. At the moment, in this current climate of the game, 'Behaviour' is topping the bill in these "Issues".
4-07-2011 @ 5:33AM
Yeah, agreed. Tanking and healing takes a specific kind of PLAYER. You can offer all the incentives you want, but if a person isn't doing it because they have an active interest in healing/tanking, they're going to suck horribly and ruin the enjoyment of 4 other people.Look at what happened with Deathknights. It was a tank capable class that was intended to give more options in playing a tank and hopefully increase the number of tanks out there. What do we see? Just about every Deathknight is STILL DPS.Tanking and healing takes more work than DPS period. You need to spend more time reading up, optimizing and generally knowing your way around a game. The majority of players don't want to put in that time and effort. They want to roll their faces on the keyboard and be rewarded with big shiny numbers and even shinier virtual loot.Tapping into that desire for more loot with less effort by offering rewards is just going to make things worse. Those players are going to pitch up with their 'whatever' attitude, but now they're going to be in charge of keeping 4 other toons alive, as opposed to just wiping themselves when they were idiots.In my opinion this is going to make PUGs even more of a horrible gamble than they already are.
4-07-2011 @ 8:28AM
Not really since they still have to complete and if they suck they will get kicked.
4-07-2011 @ 7:29AM
@Jimbo I feel your pain, but your guildies who were doing
4-07-2011 @ 8:40AM
The problem of rude players - whether they be tank, healer, or DPS - will not be solved by anything that Blizzard does or doesn't do. Only the player community itself can impose change of that kind upon the player community. It has to come from within.That being said, while I don't consider myself a rude player (who would?), I do plan on making a serious effort to be much more constructive and patient towards the rest of the party including the healers and tanks. Maybe a good attitude, well expressed, will rub off on another and then another and then problem solved.And then we all get the loot bags. *thumbs up*
4-07-2011 @ 8:52AM
It will also attract people like me: Characters who're really overgeared for dungeons who don't give a shit about running Heroics unless a guildie needs their daily, at which point they run with an all-guild group. Extra cash and flasks doesn't matter to me, but a chance at pets and mounts (assuming they're ones my obsessive collector self doesn't already have) is enough to entice me back.
4-07-2011 @ 10:18AM
I honestly don't understand why people are offended by being called "tank" or "heals", its like being called sir or mam, its my title, its what I do, I'm the only person in the group doing it, and it isn't deliberately offensive. My two cents.As a tank I DO agree that probably 50% of groups have at least one douche bag who just goes out of his way to make everyone's life hell. The best route is one that has been suggested above, harsher and more public punishments for being a douche. One draw back to this approach is the amount of time it will take for the already strained staff at blizzard. It takes a lot of time simply because they can't just take your word for it, they have to go back look at the combat and/or chat log and judge for themselves whether or not they we're in fact, griefing enough to be considered worth punishment.P.S.: Please don't just right person-relm was a douche in your reports, blizzard will ignore this.
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