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4-08-2011 @ 2:06PM
Let the I dont want to tank or heal and get the reward whining begin. Go.
4-08-2011 @ 2:09PM
Eh... that's like saying "Hey, I don't want to kill Nefarian and Cho'gall. Give me my Tier helm and shoulders anyway.Do the work, get the reward.
4-08-2011 @ 2:21PM
Work takes effort and my druid shoulders and helm are spiritually calling to me. If I asked really nicely would you let me have them anyways?
4-08-2011 @ 2:33PM
The problem with this analogy is that it is not possible for some people to role a tank without leveling a toon they have no interest in playing/gearing for heroics (that's a HUGE time commitment). For example, I have a friend that only plays rogues and only one of them is maxed.
4-08-2011 @ 2:58PM
I really have to agree with OP here. I play tanks almost exclusively. I am very annoyed with the DPS whining about not getting access to this extra loot. If you want access to the loot, then roll a tank or a healer. If enough people start doing this, then guess what? DPS will get the call to arms, and then they can get the satchel.The entire reason we're in this situation is because there are too many DPS classes, however, all the whiny rants I've seen boil down to the same thing - I want the extra loot, but I don't want to work for it. There is this sense of entitlement that players seem to have, where they want everything, but are not willing to change what role they play in order to get it. If you want to experience dungeons with a shorter queue time, then play a tank or a healer. If you want shorter queue times as a DPS, well you're sh!t out of luck then.If DPS are going to complain about long queue times, but not play as a tank or a healer, then STFU and GTFO. I'm sick of hearing about people complaining about the problem, but not doing anything to help solve it.I now view DPS as a necessary evil, but I would totally cut them out of my groups if I could be successful without them.
4-08-2011 @ 4:25PM
Any complaints I may have had on this new system are now alleviated. I may even re-instate my shadow priest's disco spec, my mage isn't left out despite her Onyxia-tanking prowess, and gearing my little prot pally ought to be more exciting now.I have a question of the nature of the Bind-on-Account-ness, though! Is the SATCHEL BoA, or are the rewards inside BoA? And is it a matter of: I just received so-and-so pet, now I choose who gets it, or is bound to everyone like the wyvern hatchling pet? I'd imagine there's some amount of choice, due to the flasks being randomly chosen.
4-08-2011 @ 4:29PM
@adamjgp I have to disagree about there being too many dps classes. You have mages, warlocks, rogues, hunters. It is a lot, but it's not too many when a dungeon group needs 3 dps and only 1 healer and 1 tank. The issue is that people just don't want to tank and to a lesser extent don't want to heal. I healed my way from level 1 to 85, but to be honest my first toon was a lock, which I picked for role play reasons more than anything else, back when that mattered to me. Now I love LOVE healing, and I like tanking, but I don't currently have the will to get to 85 on my tank toons. Leveling I do not enjoy, at all. Think about the number of DPS warriors and DKs you see for every tank warrior or DK.The only class I see primarily tank are pallys. I don't know what it is, but Pally's like their support roles. It might be because Ret is kind of a pain right now, who knows. At the end of the day it's about the role not the classes. Every time I see a tank capable class in the an LFG dungeon dpsing I am befuddled. I would never waste my time DPSing with a class that can tank. It just makes no sense to me, but the world is a crazy place.
4-08-2011 @ 4:46PM
"The entire reason we're in this situation is because there are too many DPS classes, however, all the whiny rants I've seen boil down to the same thing - I want the extra loot, but I don't want to work for it. There is this sense of entitlement that players seem to have, where they want everything, but are not willing to change what role they play in order to get it. If you want to experience dungeons with a shorter queue time, then play a tank or a healer. If you want shorter queue times as a DPS, well you're sh!t out of luck then."Sounds to me like YOU are the one with the entitlement issues. This whole paragraph seems to indicate that you feel tanks and healers work harder, therefore they are entitled to bonus rewards and shorter queues."If DPS are going to complain about long queue times, but not play as a tank or a healer, then STFU and GTFO. I'm sick of hearing about people complaining about the problem, but not doing anything to help solve it."This is a somewhat reasonable statement when directed at 'hybrids' as they simply need to respec and collect new gear (and learn to play the new role, obviously). But that's an unfair statement to make to 'pures'. You're telling them that the solution to their complaints is to abandon the character with the name and race/class combo they want, as well as all the titles, mounts, gear, and achievements they have earned, so they can start a new character, spend a potentially long time leveling it up (depending on how many hours they can play per day and how many days they can play per week), gear it up, and learn to play a role with which they may not necessarily be comfortable or find any enjoyment. Congratulations, there is one fewer DPS complaining about their queue times. But now there is one more Tank complaining that they don't get to DPS."I now view DPS as a necessary evil, but I would totally cut them out of my groups if I could be successful without them."I think you just showed your true colors here. This is just about you feeling like you, as a Tank, are better than DPS. But you did touch on a great point: "...if I could be successful without them." Dungeons are a group effort. Remember that. As much as you may hate the DPS, you need them, they need you, you all need the healer, and the healer needs you all.
4-08-2011 @ 5:14PM
@ CiganAdamjgp is actually correct when he says there are too many DPS classes when compared to tanks and healers especially considering their relative size in a 5 man group. There are 3 specs, 1 sub-spec (kitty/bear druids) and 10 classes, meaning 31 unique playstlyes altogether. Of those 31 there are 4 tanking specs (Blood DKs, Bear Druids, Prot Paladins, and Prot Warriors) representing 12.9% of possible playstlyes (4/31) and 5 healing specs (holy priests, discipline priests, holy paladins, resto druids and resto shamans) representing 16.13% of possible playstlyes (5/31).In a 5 man group there are always 3 DPS, 1 healer and 1 tank so both tanks and healers make up 20% of any given groups composition (1/5). If every player in WoW were to miraculously queue for a dungeon, and if the population of WoW specs followed the above statistics then DPS would still have longer queue times than tanks or healers. These are pretty far fetched assumptions and are not indicative of the actual behaviors and gaming habits of the WoW community at large exacerbating the issue of tank+healing specs/ DPS specs (9/31 or 29.03%).These DESIGN features of WoW cause inherent issues when looking for groups because of the increased relative importance of tanks and healers as well as the limited number of tanking and healing roles in the game.Combine this with player burnout from abuse, steeper learning curves for tanking/healing, and (possibly) a lower interest in tanking/healing specs in general and it is easy to see why the queues for DPS are so outrageous.With that being said I believe the 'Call to Arms' mechanic actually does provide an excellent incentive for tanks and healers to queue more often and will encourage people to cope with the community based issues with using the LFD tool. However it does not solve the problem of tanks and healers COMBINED making up only 29% of available specs in the game. If Blizzard wishes to create greater parity among game play roles then they simply need to add more tank and healing specs into the game. Period.Backfire the Exalted
4-08-2011 @ 5:53PM
@DBNMA comment on your numbers, as I've seen this argument a lot lately. I don't think Blizzard categorizes the roles as you have (out of 31 available specs). As you've pointed out, the numbers/percentages clearly don't work when you use these as a baseline.I don't work for Blizzard, so I can't say with authority that this is what they're thinking, but it seems more than coincidental (especially since they've added Death Knights specifically to fill role "holes") that this works...Number of Classes capable of Tanking: 4 (Death Knight, Druid, Paladin, and Warrior)Number of Classes capable of Healing: 4 (Druid, Paladin, Priest, and Shaman)Number of Classes capable of Melee DPS: 6 (Death Knight, Druid, Paladin, Rogue, Shaman, and Warrior)Number of Classes capable of Ranged DPS: 6 (Druid, Hunter, Mage, Priest, Shaman, and Warlock)Total Class/Role combinations: 204/20 Tank = 1/5 = 20%4/20 Healer = 1/5 = 20%12/20 Total DPS = 3/5 = 60% (Equally divided between Melee and Ranged)This seems to be a more logical way to divide the Class/Role combinations, plus it works with the percentages needed for Dungeons (and to a lesser extent Raids).My two cents...Cheers!
4-08-2011 @ 8:48PM
@DBMN, Longtime LurkerThe only flaw within either one of your calculations is that you assume 100% even play across all classes. The calculations for either of your arguments are reliant on the fact that each class is played equally. From all the data I've ever seen, this is not the case. From the census data from warcraftrealms.com (which is pulled from the Armory), here's the current class distribution of level 85 characters: DK 11%, Druid 12%, Hunter 11%, Mage 11%, Pally 14%, Priest 10%, Rogue 7%, Shaman 9%, Warlock 7%, Warrior 10%. Assuming that each class is distributed evenly across the roles in CAN fill by spec gives us what's below. This, by my own admission, is a HUGE assumption, but at least we'd be getting closer to solid numbers. If anyone knows of a site that breaks the census info down by spec (which is also available on the Armory, so I'm sure it's out there somewhere), I'd love to get a link to it.DK Tank: 3.7%DK DPS: 7.3%Druid Tank: 3%Druid DPS: 6%Druid Heal: 3%Hunter DPS: 11%Mage DPS: 11%Paladin Tank: 4.7%Paladin DPS: 4.7%Paladin Heals: 4.7%Priest DPS: 3.3%Priest Heals: 6.7%Rogue DPS: 7%Shaman DPS: 6%Shaman Heals: 3%Warlock DPS: 7%Warrior Tank: 3.3%Warrior DPS: 6.7%Total Tanks: 14.7%Total DPS: 70.0%Total Healers: 17.4%(Yea that total comes to 100.1%, rounding ftl)Personally, I've got 3 tanks (no DK tank), 3 healers (no disc priest, he stays holy) and a boatload of dps toons (every class but warlock and hunter, me and pets don't work, apparently). I know each role and play each equally well. The true tank shortage isn't from the lack of tanking specs. It's from the lack of people's desire to play a tanking spec. From my own personal experience in Cataclysm, solo-queuing in the Dungeon Finder as a tank is like walking down the street while having someone constantly pushing you in the back (GOGOGOGOGO!), telling you you're walking the wrong way (CC is for losers) while telling you that you're fat and ugly (You suck at tanking). Until the DPS (and I admit I'm guilty of it myself at times) decide to check their epeen at the door and stop treating their tanks like dirt, the tank shortage will continue, no matter what sort of incentives Blizz throws at them.
4-08-2011 @ 10:24PM
Just to be clear: I'm not arguing that the percentages of Tanks/Healers/DPS in my post above are indicative of the actual breakdown in World of Warcraft (our collective experiences with the LFD tool have demonstrated a disproportionate number of DPS to Tanks/Healers), rather that Blizzard has designed a system of Class/Role combinations that enables the playerbase to more easily match the requirements for play.If they had a Class/Role combination with 100 DPS, 2 Healers, and 1 Tank, while still expecting a group to be formed with 3 DPS, 1 Healer, and 1 Tank, then they would have designed a system that could only fail. They haven't done this.The problem is that far more players (at least in the population that uses the LFD tool) have chosen to play DPS, than Tank (or even Healer). The only way to solve this problem is to:a) Provide a disincentive (punishment) for playing DPS (or over-represented Class/Role); orb) Provide an incentive (reward) for playing a Tank or Healer (or under-represented Class/Role).I think we can agree (or I hope so at least) that option "a" is unacceptable. This leaves us with option "b," which is exactly what they've done.In short, the Class/Roles, Specs, or whatever you want to call them are already designed to meet the LFD tool requirements; they just need to convince the playerbase to be more equally represented across the existing Class/Role combinations...You could have 100 Tank/Healer classes, but if everyone prefers to play the single, awesome, fun DPS class, you can't build a team...Cheers!
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