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4-11-2011 @ 3:52PM
I've always said that Cairne's death was his own doing, Garrosh might be dumber than a bag of rocks, but he has honor and always looking for all up front combat, not a backstabber or a liar like Magatha Grimtotem, Cairne should've been a better judge of character and believed Garrosh when he told him he had nothing to do with what happened in Ashenvale...And what is Darth Maul doing in that vid? (13.:36)
4-11-2011 @ 6:23PM
Well, Cairne was actually a VERY good judge of character. He was wrong about the specifics of the attack on the druids but even Thrall wasn't sure that Garrosh hadn't been responsible for the attack on the sentinels before he left. Cairne would never have trusted Magatha BECAUSE he was a good judge of character. :)
4-12-2011 @ 10:12PM
Maybe his own doing, but you don't expect to be poisoned in a duel of honor. He would've kicked Garrosh's ass without the poisoned blade.
4-11-2011 @ 7:37PM
Exactly, he didn't have all the facts and went to confront Garrosh to a duel to death, you don't do that unless you are sure you have the right person, he fought Thrall about the decision of putting Garrosh in charge because he thought he was a mindless warmonger so he had it for him way before the Druid incident, poison or not he gambled his life and he lost, true, he might have won but as Garrosh himself says we will never know if he could defeat Cairne in combat.
4-11-2011 @ 8:35PM
Well see, this is why I will always hold Garrosh responsible. His stupidity, cruelty and disrespect for the advisers Thrall left for him, lead to the duel and made it easier for the cultists to manipulate the horde. Now, there's a big difference between that an saying that Garrosh murdered Cairne. The book purposefully had us ALL thinking Garrosh was not only capable of that attack but implied his culpability. The guy is the warchief and as long as he makes his decisions based on his own stupid pride, then the blood of MANY will be on his hands.At least Cairne was acting for the best of the Horde. If he'd killed Garrosh everyone would have been better off. Instead, Cairne dies, a slaughter in Thunderbluff ensues and nearly and entire generation of the most powerful Tauren leaders are gone.THAT is all on Garrosh. Sucks to be the leader but he wants to build his DAMN legacy so there ya go. Sorry, rant over. ;) On a much lighter note. I did notice the Tauren in Darth Maul make-up. Good-eye!
4-12-2011 @ 5:13AM
I generally agree with Namus. Cairne was far from blameless.I still feel that he showed uncharacteristic closed-mindedness towards Garrosh, almost looking at him as little more than an extension of Grom. That prejudice is felt through pretty much the whole book. He consistently expected only the worst, right from the first moment they met, and was always shocked when Garrosh proved his assumptions wrong. Not once did he give him the benefit of the doubt.Garrosh did not drive away Cairne, he begged him to remain in Orgrimmar and continue advising him. Cairne left because he felt that Garrosh never followed his advice, but Garrosh nevertheless valued his wisdom and guidance. Hell, the tipping point for Cairne leaving was pretty much the style of architecture that Garrosh chose for the reconstruction of Orgrimmar, because it reminded him of descriptions he had heard of Hellfire Citadel.As for Magatha, Garrosh is still a relative newcomer to the Horde and unskilled in political maneuvering. He hadn't even wanted to be Warchief, saying he felt he lacked experience and would be better suited to remaining a military advisor.Garrosh was never warned of her duplicitous nature, and had only met her briefly near the beginning of the book. The book never indicates that Cairne advised him at all about her, even though he tells Baine that he saw her speak to Garrosh and was concerned that it may lead to trouble. In fact, she's not mentioned again until she blesses Garrosh's weapon."The book purposefully had us ALL thinking Garrosh was not only capable of that attack but implied his culpability."The one earlier in the book, perhaps. But by the time Cairne went running to Orgrimmar to throw down, it had already been revealed to be a Twilight Cultist plot.
4-12-2011 @ 9:13AM
The 'Darth Maul' Tauren is Orno Grimtotem. He was involved in the failed attempt to take over Thunder Bluff. One of the last quests in Mulgore is called War Dance (it may be Tauren-only). You're sent down to help drive the remaining Grimtotem out of Mulgore. You get to see Baine get a little revenge.
4-12-2011 @ 1:55PM
This is just proof that people can read the exact same thing and come out thinking the exact opposite. I thought Cairne gave the kid a MILLION chances to act in the ACTUAL best interest of the horde. It's unfair to say that he was expecting Garrosh to follow in the failings of his father when just about every moment we get a peek into what Garrosh is actually thinking, he's thinking about how he can live up to his father's legacy and build his own. Everything he does and says elevated the "old" horde and his father's decisions. His selfishness is disgusting. The character is all about his father, not about the good of the horde. Cairne was showing great insight by seeing this. Yes, Garrosh asked Cairne to stay but EVERY thing he actually DID and SAID in his leadership essentially spit on Cairne and the other advisers. Several times he throws out veiled insults about how they are stuck in the past and past their prime. You can say you value someones opinion but act in ways that are nothing but dismissive of them, the words are lies. Cairne made the right choice. Words are nothing when they are not backed up by actions.Yes, when Cairne left it was over architecture. THINK about that for a minute! Cairne saw Orgrimmar becoming a gigantic tribute to the kind of decisions/ethos and morality of the OLD horde - the demon-blood horde. Of COURSE he had issues with that. Ogrimarr has become an idol to conquest and bloodshed. If that's the horde you want, then yes, Garrosh is your guy. ;-)It really is interesting to see how different people read the same thing. Just about everything that Garrosh did and said in that book made me hate him all the more. He came across like a selfish child who had no idea of the true responsibility on his head. That's just me though. I respect where the rest of you are coming from. I am not saying Cairne was blameless, at least in the challenge that ended his life. He was wrong about Garrosh and the druids but I DO think he was right in his overall assessment of the kid and, as always, was looking PAST his own pride to the overall good of the horde. That is NOT something I can say for Garrosh. That is what makes Cairne and Baine true leaders as compared to Garrosh. If anything was truly shattered for me by the novel, it was my confidence in the Orcs, as a people. If Garrosh really is the leader they want/need, then I've wasted my breath defending them and arguing with my guildies for peace. ;-p Even Thrall was greatly diminished in my eyes. He's always been my favorite character. And yes, I do take lore WAY to seriously! ;-p Thanks for discussing this with me. I may disagree but I LOVE the discussion. /hugs
4-12-2011 @ 1:58PM
@Boven - you have no idea how much I wish there was a way for an alliance character to actually help out with that little bit of revenge. I'd LOVE a quiet little quest given to you by Jaina to covertly help Baine. /sigh Alas that is too much to ask of the small-minded requirements of the faction system in wow. :) Thanks for the update though. I'll see if I can find a recording of that quest. /bow
4-12-2011 @ 2:27PM
Well the thing is, I think Garrosh do represents the true Horde more than Thrall ever did, you know that he is a very different orc with all the raised-by-humans-bff-with-Tabetha thing (which is weird because I would be pretty pissed with the humans for making me do arenas!) and that attitude has lead to one too many confrontations with other orcs, in the other hand Garrosh has gained great acceptation with most of the horde because of what he did in northrend, and is perceived as a tough leader who will do what it takes for the benefit of his people, you know that Orgrimmar is in a bad place, even before the shattering so right now decisive action is probably what's best for the horde and maybe the reason why Thrall left Garrosh in charge, i'm not saying he had no responsability in what happened to Cairne because his hotheaded attitude led him to accept the challenge instead of looking into the druid's deaths, but also Cairne shouldn't have gone into Grommash hold without conclusive evidence.Bottom line this story is far from over and I think Garrosh will prove to be exactly what the horde needs, he might need to learn a lot about diplomacy and stuff, but several horde quests shows that he's not willing to cut corners to help his people (Stonetalon and the warlock in Ashenvale being good examples).And yeah, lore is pretty fun to discuss :)
4-12-2011 @ 6:43PM
Ah but Namus - it was exactly that difference that made ThraLL the leader the Horde needed to rise above their roots as, frankly, monsters. You can't claim that they were anything BUT that when they burned their way across the land killing without ANY honor or discrimination. Thrall made choices based on true love for his people. Garrosh makes decisions based on his own pride. Those differences are the crux for me. You may be right and it's all going to, "come out all-right" for the horde but I honestly feel that they'll have to do lore-gymnastics to make it happen at this point. If I were a horde player I'd be very concerned that if Garrosh is the type of leader you want then what are you becoming, truly. If I were a Tauren (which is what I would be if I were horde) I'd be even more concerned about this. Everything about Garrosh is contrary to the Tauren worldview. Add that to Sylvanas' shenanigans and I'd want nothing to do with the horde over the coming months/years. I've often said I'd love to see some really third faction gameplay. I realize this may not be feasible in the game but it would sure reflect a players convictions a lot more. Again, thanks. ;)
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