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4-12-2011 @ 4:15PM
"By extension, no matter how well I tank heroic Stonecore, I'm back to square one with another group that has no reason to believe I'm competent."This is a RANDOM dungeon finder, and you are not tanking to build yourself a god like reputation. Every single person who leaves the group ends up in the same place. The whole toon entitlement has to stop. Tanks; your no more skilled than any other players; you complete your role differently. No, its not easy to Tank with 4 other muppets in your random que, but FFS if your the only DPS doing his job, then its going to be just as bloody fail as if you had a godlike Tank - same goes for healers as well.
4-12-2011 @ 4:28PM
i dont think that was the exact point he was trying to make in the article. your fury is misplaced. i think the author was referring more to the intrinsic feeling of accomplishment a tank felt and that was perpetuated across a realm through establishing reliable reputations when forming random 5mans for instance runs; back when you spammed trade chat "LF 1Tank 1Heals 4 random".The article is insightful i thought; especially as it highlights the nature of relationships between 'strangers' and the need for constructive collaboration in the absence of consequence for callow behaviour. It doesn't seem to be enough that 5 people 'share' the goal of completing an instance and the 'bribe' that blizzard is using to incentivize tank LFD tanks doesn't really address the core issue here. The issue is that if your reputation is involved, you'd have a higher commitment to responsible and altruistic play (if you care about your reputation that is)... anyway.... sometimes i despair for humanity.
4-12-2011 @ 4:29PM
Right, but I'd argue that that's the crux of the post; right now there is very little incentive for a tank to queue for a *random* dungeon, and that's precisely what Blizzard's having trouble getting people to do. People who rely on in-guild tanks or friends who are tanks can get somebody to do a run for them, but if you're random DPS #37,549 in the queue, you're going to wait the hell of a long time for a tank who's willing to bypass Options A and B. It's not that tanks weren't willing to do the more difficult BC-style heroics, but they were respected for doing it (assuming they did it well) because there weren't any options beyond your own server. People knew if you were good. In Wrath, it was impossible to retain that social advantage through the dungeon finder, but nobody cared because the dungeon finder debuted at a time when almost everyone was overgeared for heroics anyway. Right now in Cata, I'd attribute DPS queue times to difficult heroics + anonymity (which is to say, lack of accountability) through the dungeon finder + lowest possible level of gear (seriously, things will never be worse than they are now) = astronomical DPS queue times.DPS are in the same position as tanks in not being able to build a reputation through the dungeon finder, but tanks rely on that reputation in a way that DPS don't because they are expected to lead their groups. To put it another way, which tank is more likely to get cooperation needed to complete a dungeon run smoothly from their DPS -- the guy in blues or the epic'd out raider rocking the Dragonslayer title? And while this is more a question for next week, I suppose, but does the proposed Call to Arms system really incentivize the latter to start pugging?
4-12-2011 @ 4:30PM
It's not just tanks that don't build reps; back in BC there was a short list of DPSers I'd take into the higher end heroics (SH, MgT, SL, etc.), and an even shorter list of healers. But the upshot to that was that I knew them. Like Allison, I still play with people I met through BC heroics, because when you know someone's good, you seek them out. This holds true if they're a healer that can singlehandedly perform brain surgery while healing through a heroic, a tank that can dance boss abilities and positioning like nobody's business, or a DPSer who can keep three enemies CCd while still pulling top DPS.it's that sense of community and accountability on a server that the dungeon finder has all but destroyed. It's not just tanks that suffer by it, and it's not just healers, it's everyone.
4-12-2011 @ 4:33PM
You missed the point.It's not about Alison wanting DPS players to fall at her feet in awe, or even about tanks being 'special'. It's about the abuse tanks regularly take from the rest of the group that is typically unjustified, and that no matter how good of a tank you are that abuse can never go away because you have to proof yourself from scratch every single dungeon run. Regardless of whether or not tanking is harder or more special than other roles, they do in fact bear more responsibility in the eyes of players and that is very significant.
4-12-2011 @ 4:35PM
Actually, if you've got a good tank and a good healer, then almost any fight in hcs can be completed with poor DPS.If you've got a poor tank, then the group WILL fail, even with great DPS and a healer from heaven. If you've got a bad healer, then it all goes wrong too.Sorry mate, but DPS really are the least important members of a group when it comes to hcs. Problem is that most DPS act as if the entire game is there just for them, which in turn means that most tanks and healers get sick of the LFD tool.
4-12-2011 @ 4:41PM
And how many guilds picked up an unguilded player this way back in BC? I'm pretty certain we picked up a few - some of which are still in our guild and others who I have on my friend/RealID list.
4-12-2011 @ 4:43PM
I Tank, i Heal. I hardly dps because i cbf sitting around for 35-40 mins waiting for a que to pop. Alot of anger pointed at me, and all because i pointed out we all ended up in the same place after a random que... really? So we do end up in different places?And as stated, not ONE person can carry people through heroics anymore. Good work.And as someone who Tanks using the random dungeon finder all the time, people are SOOO much nicer to the Tank; if not they will be kicked, or ill leave.
4-12-2011 @ 4:44PM
Wish I could read your post to see what people didn't like about it. But, it's been darkened by down-fisties.WTB Comment system for adults.
Yes, there are some self-entitled, a**hole tanks out there in RDF, and they should go DIAF. However, this article made no allusion to tanks deserving entitlement, and I hope you weren't implying that. Having a good reputation is not the same thing as entitlement.This article states that all party members must shoulder responsibility to complete a heroic smoothly. The drawback to RDF is that there is little incentive for anyone to act responsibily or improve their skills when they will likely never encounter their partymates again.
4-12-2011 @ 4:47PM
I disagree, there are a number of heroic bosses that the tank and healer can't carry through horrid dps. Coincidentally, it happens to be a lot the bosses from the "Hard" heroics.With out at least 1 ranged dps to pop the crystals Corborus is gonna be damm near impossible.Drahga Shadowburner and Erudax are both gonna be impossible if the dps can't handle the adds.Even Corla, Herald of Twilight is dependent on having at least 1 dps who has a clue.
4-12-2011 @ 4:55PM
I should probably note (and I don't know if this really came across in the article all that well, likely because I shifted so much of it to next week) that when I use the "reputation" concept here, I don't mean it in the sense of strutting around a capital city with everyone thinking how great you are. I really mean it in the sense of being able to ask a player to do something and having a reasonable expectation that he/she will do it.To contrast --Server Run:Me: Hey (hunter from my server), can you trap the square over there? Pull whenever, I know Trap Launcher's touchy when mobs are moving.Hunter from my server: No problem.(Pull goes smoothly because I know this hunter and already know he will re-trap square continually until I've started hitting it, which means I can safely afford to ignore this mob completely if something goes wrong elsewhere)Dungeon Finder run:Me: Hey (hunter I don't know), can you trap the square over there? Pull whenever, I know Trap Launcher's touchy when mobs are moving.Hunter I don't know: (One of several different responses, ranging from "No problem" to "No" to silence to "We don't need CC here" to "Need a sec to find the ability" to ... etc., etc.)(Pull may or may not go smoothly because I don't know this hunter and don't know if he/she will re-trap the square or simply let it run amok as soon as the first trap wears off assuming the first trap ever existed).So in all truth, reputation goes both ways. People who have experience playing together almost invariably play better, and that's always a problem that pugs have had to deal with. However, the tank gets the lion's share of responsibility for 5-mans through the dungeon finder, and in difficult content where you may really need that trap but have no guarantee that it'll happen, I think most tanks are understandably reluctant.
4-13-2011 @ 8:05AM
Allison,I think you've actually hit on a larger issue than just the RDF and tanking issues. I think you've hit on the (lack of) community issues that are currently plaguing WoW.I've been playing for a while now and have enjoyed almost every class and role and playing to end game content and PvP (just can't get into Priest / Warlock for some reason, but I've got plenty of experience with the rest), and I've seen a lot of changes as many of the wow.joystiq.com readers have. I remember when the RDF came out that it was a great convenience, but I also noted these anonymity issues you have brought up almost immediately. But the convenience and the rewards were nice enough I didn't mind the anonymity problem so much.By the time Cataclysm came out, I have to say that I've severely curtailed my tanking. If I take my DK, Pally, Warrior, or Bear into a random heroic, I almost always queue as DPS and go herb or dig or mine while waiting for the queue. If I land a good tank, awesome, I DPS (or heal). If I land a terrible tank, I try to offer advice, help them do their job, and in a last resort, I change specs and tank instead. Even with that I've almost stopped doing heroics altogether simply because I've run into so many bad experiences (most of which are rude players). My point here is that while RDF and the same for battlegrounds have been great convenience tools, perhaps the problem is not with the tool, but with the fact that it reaches across server boundaries? Anonymity (as most who have used the internet know) breeds rude / bad behavior. Perhaps limiting the RDF to your server (or offering that as an option when you queue) would be a nice solution. I'd gladly wait another 5-10 minutes (or more) to get someone from my server. I think it would help bring that sense of community that was so intrinsic in the early days of WoW that has been slowly dying off since 3.3.There may be other / better solutions (player rating perhaps?) that may allow for cross-server use and still work out well, but I don't think that just offering tanks more loot / gear is going to bring them back to the queues. It certainly won't for me.
4-12-2011 @ 6:31PM
@KBPI'm a healer and tank on my druid main and 1/3 sounds good to me.
4-12-2011 @ 7:18PM
I think the problem IS a sense of entitlement among tanks. How many times have you've seen a tank holding quick queue times for ransom in trade chat? Instead of curtailing the behavior, Blizzard has upped the ante with their bag full of bribes. When you roll a tank, you need to accept the responsibilities that go along with it. I hate having to trap on my hunter (because of tanks that won't wait until I actually set the trap before charging in), but I accept trapping as going with the territory and queue with my hunter anyway.TL:DR - You're a tank, so tank. Expecting ANY kind of recognition for doing what you're supposed to be doing is the same as that DPS who posts recount after every fight.
4-12-2011 @ 7:23PM
@Groth:Okay, you try doing Heroic Grim Batol without good DPS. Let's see how fast you get the adds down for the last two bosses. Have you ever thought that a DPS might not treat you with respect because you're an ass? I always treat my tanks with respect until they pretend they are the king of the group just because they have instant queues. Maybe instead of pretending like you deserve to be treated like a god because you know how to tank (which really isn't that difficult), you should try to be focusing on how to get the group to work more cohesively? It takes two seconds to assign CC and do a readycheck, if you get DPS with an attitude, just kick them so the good ones (like me) will be able to hop in and help you and the TEAM finish the dungeon.
4-13-2011 @ 12:01AM
@Shopo100i agree 150%, There is no reason for a tank or healer to ever complain about the RDF, as they can always kick an uncooperative DPS and instantly have him replaced. Put the shoe on the other foot. It maybe frustrating for you as a tank to use the RDF, but its infinitely worse as a DPS, as the queues are much longer. So what you queued for a grand total of 2 milliseconds failed on the first mob pull, /ragequit waited 30 mins and queued again, You just queued for 2 randoms in the time it to me to even get into my first. congratualations on complaining when you have nothing to complain about, and now your being rewarded for it? Your role isn't any harder than anyone elses, and now with vengeance in every tank spec your role has become easier as threat management has become so simple my 4 year old can hold aggro. So before you complain, make sure it has merit.PS: plz excuse me if i came off a bit harsh, i was in no way attempting to flame anyone person, JUST TANKS IN GENERAL!
4-13-2011 @ 6:15AM
@bigberry51Spoken like a true dps player. You think the worst part of a dungeon is just the queue, because for you its easymode once you get into the dungeon. For a tank the worst part is the dungeon itself. Take a look at the activity log on your recount sometime, see who is *always* at the top, who is the most active, who has to be focused 100% of the time from the start of the dungeon to the end; the tank.I been gearing a hunter up in heroics and by playing with just a fraction of the focus I usually need for tanking I'm almost always top of dps, while also CC'ing two mobs, and the tank is almost always 2nd on dps. Thats how bad the general state of dps are; like the mage yesterday who had enchanted with +3 resist on chest and bracers and +agility on gloves. Or the BM hunter doing at best 3k dps. A tank gearing or performing like that (and even healers) would fall flat on his face right at the start, yet dps can easily be carried along.Is the 'tanking rotation and tactics' harder than that of a dps? No. Does tanking require exponentially more focus, awareness, knowledge, and presence than dps? Absolutely. And this isnt just *my* opinion, because apparently 30-40min queues vs. 0 min queues agrees with me.
4-13-2011 @ 7:50AM
@Allison... "And while this is more a question for next week, I suppose, but does the proposed Call to Arms system really incentivize the latter to start pugging?"Not this tank. Not with the mounts being the same, with the same drop rate, as I could get peacefully soloing the original mount-dropping content. It sounded interesting at first, but they'll have to up the ante a lot more to actually reel me in. Especially since it has to be entirely solo; I can't even pair up with my husband.I think a lot of the downvoted posts here prove the article's point though. I don't recall ever charging for a queue in my WoW existence, I'm fairly skilled at my class, and am generally a polite and easy-going person. But there's a god-awful lot of people who just make PuGs a miserable nightmare... and too many of them enjoy doing so.
4-13-2011 @ 10:06AM
@Grak:"Take a look at the activity log on your recount sometime, see who is *always* at the top, who is the most active, who has to be focused 100% of the time from the start of the dungeon to the end; the tank."Let me tell you, there is so much fail in that statement that I can barely contain myself!First, if your tank is leading DPS, you have three SUCK dps. You run a heroic with me, you won't be CLOSE to tops in DPS, in fact, I'll have you beat in DPS by SEVERAL THOUSAND!Second, what do you have to focus on? DON'T STAND IN FIRE, MAKE SURE THE BOSS HITS MEI could get a trained MONKEY to do that! Melee DPS has - CC and still be in position to attack, don't stand in fire, don't get hit, pick up adds when the come because the tank sure as hell can't hit hard enough to take them down, watch aggro so that you don't pull off the tank who seems to have his finger in his nose right now, manage aggro when you pull it off the tank... again.... Oh, and KILL THE HELL OUT OF STUFF BECAUSE EVERYONE IS FOCUSED ON THEIR "DPS" INSTEAD OF JUST DOING THEIR DAMN JOB!THEN - You get the 1 DPS who thinks he's God's Gift to DPS, while dealing with a Tank who has "e-peen" issues and thinks if he's not calling all the shots that he'll be overlooked for the Asshole of the Year awards, and a healer who believes that they should have shorter queue times because everyone will die without them. What does that leave? Me and one other DPS who just want to get in, get our damn VP, and get the hell out!But no, we get to deal with the rest of you.The LFD has led me to some great runs, where I've learned a LOT and had a great time. Just last night I queued on my warlock (lvl 76), we ran a dungeon, had a great time, queued again, had another great run, then again. We had a blast, we worked together to get the job done (granted, wrath dungeon, so not a lot of "work" was needed), but overall, it was a great experience.85 Heroics have brought out the "I have a bigger e-peen than you" crap from JUNIOR HIGH, and it seems that tanks do more of that than anyone else! Well, I guess if a Monkey could do my job, I'd act that way too....
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