Two Bosses Enter: Karsh Steelbender vs. Forgemaster Throngus
by Alex Ziebart 
Apr 18th 2011 at 9:00AM
After last week's aerial battle, we're getting back down to earth with Karsh Steelbender and Forgemaster Throngus. I hope you have your AC on, because things are about to get hot.
| Karsh Steelbender | |
|---|---|
| Forgemaster Throngus |
In last week's matchup, Eregos proved that he's still got it and showed Altairus who's boss. The drake of north winds didn't stand a chance against the Ley-Guardian.
Follow along for the details of this week's matchup, as well as discussion on last week's matchup.
The rules of the ring
- The WoW Insider Ring is considered neutral territory, where both combatants are able to access their usual encounter mechanics and abilities. If you can't visualize it inside the squared circle, visualize it someplace else -- but you must take into consideration all of each bosses' abilities and mechanics.
- Assume that each opponent is intelligent and capable of strategic thinking.
- All of the competitors' abilities, including crowd control and other effects to which bosses are usually immune, work on their opponents (with apologies to considerations of lore on this point).
- Assume that the opponents share similar levels, health pools, and comparative overall damage output.
- Don't get caught up in gameplay mechanics and what actual players might do in each encounter.
- Don't neglect style, story, and scale. Everything is a factor; seeking balance is your goal as a spectator and judge.
Feel the burn!
Karsh, like Ozruk, is one of those Cataclysm bosses who simply does not like inexperienced tanks. Karsh eats them for breakfast. His formidable defenses combined with his terrifying damage make him one tough opponent.
Karsh Steelbender's abilities include:
- Quicksilver Armor, which can become Superheated Quicksilver Armor
- Cleave
- Summons Bound Flames
Throngus slice you up!
Throngus's simple way of speaking belies his true cunning. Forgemaster Throngus is likely one of Cataclysm's most intelligent bosses, having the foresight to pack more than one weapon. He has a tool for all occasions. Will it be enough to chip through Steelbender's defenses?
The Forgemaster's toolkit includes:
- Disorienting Roar
- Impaling Slam
- Mighty Stomp
- Pick Weapon
- Burning Flames when wielding his swords
- Encumbered when wielding his mace
- Personal Phalanx when wielding his shield
The Ley-Guardian trounced his competition last week, winning the matchup with 61% of the vote. Unlike his fellow Wrath of the Lich King boss Scourgelord Tyrannus, Eregos apparently still has what it takes to compete and will be advancing to the next round, where he'll be butting heads with last week's winner, Erudax.
Though certainly not the last, Martinel was one of Eregos's first major supporters, with this vision of the fight to back it up:
"YOU! Your abuse of this world's magic is impermissable!"
Eregos' wings tore at the air, holding the great dragon above the Vortex Pinnacle as he studied the wind drake. The blue opened his mouth wide to send a blast of arcane breath toward Altarius; the much smaller drake took to the air himself and screeched defiance, nimbly avoiding the magical bolt. What had been a light breeze turned violent... the sky darkened and the wind grew to a howling gale, its strongest bluster directed at Eregos' form. Altarius flew effortlessly through his own storm, lightning arcing over his fangs as he spit bolt after bolt at the Ley-Guardian.
The two wove through the air, climbing ever higher. Altairus snapped at Eregos' wingtips even as the fully-grown blue lashed out with claw and breath. The wind whipped around Eregos, buffeting him as he fought to place himself between the current and its master. Altairus dove at him, claws poised to rend scale and flesh.
"You may control the element, whelp, but you forget who controls you!" His wings stretched to their full span and Eregos faded, holding his position in the sky. Altairus' claws met him and passed through; the blue had shifted to another plane, freeing himself of the wind as well as the threat of harm. The drake corrected his course and tried to climb again, but something was distorting the air. When Eregos shifted, he'd caused anomalies in the local airspace, and they were moving toward the nearest living thing they sensed. His concentration split between holding the storm and avoiding the rifts, Altairus let the winds die down to give himself a bit of distance. Eregos watched impassively as the drake struggled, and after a long moment brought himself back to this world. The wind drake was below him, and Eregos felt the storm at his back; he folded his wings in tightly and dove.
The blue's claws dug in deeply when he hit Altairus, clutching the beast to his chest. He spread his wings again, slowing their descent. Altairus shrieked, limbs striking blindly as he turned in the blue dragon's grasp. The two were locked together, fang and claw tearing at one another as they fell through the sky. Altairus rammed his head into the Ley-guardian's chest, unleashing a blast of chilled air and kicking hard with his hind legs. The Pinnacle shook with the volume of Eregos' roar, and his grip loosened just a little. Just enough for the drake to drag himself free and... the blue's claws clamped onto his wings.
"No magic of nature will help you now..." Eregos shifted again, taking the drake with him. The storm wound down, skies clearing as the blue dragon mauled the much smaller creature. They re-entered the material world just as Eregos bit down at the base of Altarius' wings, splintering bone and scale in his jaws. The domed spires of Al'akir's keep were visible below, and it was toward these that the dragon flung his prey.
"It's a long...
way...
...down!"
| Altairus | |
|---|---|
| Eregos |
Fan favorite observer Rai threw his support being Altairus, but even CSI: Azeroth silliness wasn't enough to put the drake of north winds over the Ley-Guardian.
The battle begins!
Remember, Two Bosses Enter matchups are all about substance and style, not gameplay, mechanics, and numbers. Don't base your strategies on player tactics, which opponent has been easiest or most difficult for you personally, or the difficulty of each opponent relative to instance progression. Vote for the spirit of the battle as set forth above. Set aside differences in opponents' health pools, game level, and actual damage output. Absolutely no game mechanics nitpicking!
Set aside the world order -- let the WoW Insider Ring determine who's the champion! Your votes determine the outcome in WoW Insider's series of fantasy deathmatches, Two Bosses Enter, One Boss Leaves.
Filed under: Two Bosses Enter
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
MattKrotzer Apr 18th 2011 9:15AM
When your only offense is a good defense (Karsh), you probably shouldn't stand toe-to-toe with someone whose only desire is to meet you at close range.
Neither of these two knows the meaning of "strategic retreat." They just want to bash faces, and for pure face-bashing, I give this one to Throngus. Between his flame-spewing shield (good for super-heating armor), his dual bladed barrage of blows, or the mace that gives new meaning to "blunt trauma," I don't foresee Karsh providing much more than a temporary pause before turning into canned dragonkin mash.
It becomes even more lopsided if you give Throngus his bevy of archers, who would make quick work of Karsh's slimes, as well as making the spine-shouldered dragonkin look like some sort of bizarre arts and crafts project gone awry.
Ganatola Apr 18th 2011 9:17AM
“Heat feel good,” the mighty Ettin thought somewhat intelligently for one of his kind. The blazing air current flowed across Forgemaster Throngus’ face, beckoning to him like a fat, slow sheep would to his eye. The Forgemaster lumbered through a great, rocky caverns full of black rocks and the broken bodies of whatever idiots tried to oppose Throngus. It wasn’t a matter of Throngus’ overall violent nature, no, it was that the Twilight’s Hammer were too small for him to see – thus, he merely stepped on them as they stepped in front of him.
Unaware of the slowly approaching monster, the drakonid Karsh Steelbreaker continued applying his armor, fastening it to his bare flesh to create Karsh’s dream – complete invulnerability. “Perfection! It is I! And I am it!” the drakonid boasted as the last piece of obsidian armor was seared to his skin. The Forgemaster also walked into the room at that exact moment, unable to take in everything at once: the weird dragon-thing, the shiny lava waterfall, and the dots all over the ground…
“Too much! Too bright!” Throngus wailed, pulling out his encumbering mace in hopes to smash out the bright lights of this terrible room. He walked past the amazed Karsh and swung the mace clean through the lava flow to absolutely no affect other than splash lava across the room and hit an unfortunate gnome mechanic in the face. His short, shrill shriek of pain frightened Throngus. Throngus swung the mace in the direction of the shriek, but found that his mace had struck something even harder than he – Karsh. A feral growl filled the room as Karsh’s fury broke.
“Your body will be perfect to test my armaments on, you maniacal idiot!” He brought up his wicked spear and began circling the confused Throngus, who was still figuring out what “armaments” meant. He soon found out. The Ettin loosed a pained yelp as the spear dug deep into his thigh, but retained his instincts and returned the blow with his mace to Karsh’s face. The still-confused Throngus nearly cried when his beloved mace failed to even scratch the dragon-thing’s armor. A look of pure shock crossed Throngus’ face as he remembered the sword he left on the anvil when he left to explore…about a week ago.
“NO! Throngus get whipped if Throngus don’t get back and finish!” The frightened Ettin whimpered to Karsh as the drakonid swung again, this time striking the Ettin in the arm. Throngus took a couple more blows from the swift Karsh, but then the Ettin decided that he had enough. “Throngus slice you up!” he yelled as he tossed aside the mace, taking up his beloved swords. A new passion glowed in Throngus eye’s, a glow that only appeared in an ettin’s eye when it is threatened with it’s greatest fear – in Throngus’ case, a good whipping.
Throngus rushed the drakonid and jabbed both swords at Karsh, both points managing to impale him. A look of amused surprise crossed Karsh’s face, but he showed no pain. Though it did little damage, Throngus paraded about the room, smashing Karsh into just about everything within reach while the drakonid remained impaled. Karsh’s incessant laughter only fueled Throngus’ anger, an anger growing quickly because the dragon-thing wasn’t dying like everything else he touched! Finally, Throngus noticed the lava waterfall again. He moved to it quickly, dragging the dragon-thing across the bumpy ground.
“Congratulations, Ettin! It only took you seven minutes of you parading me around,” Karsh boomed as he was thrust under the flow of lava, “and now you have unlocked my full potential! Feel the burn!” Karsh’s armor turned bright orange as the obsidian became superheated. The spear swung stabbed into Throngus once again, but a terrible burn remained.
“TOOOOOO HOOOOOTTT!” Throngus screamed, dropping his swords out of pure fright. The Ettin pulled up his massive shield, holding it before him in a death grip. He stood before Karsh, and Karsh stood within the lava flow. Karsh’s grin grew wider as he continued to heat up, knowing that the hotter he was, the more powerful we would be. “You not get through defenses!” Throngus yelled to Karsh, more to comfort himself than taunt Karsh. Karsh decided to test the boast regardless.
The molten spear grated off of the shield, a rain of sparks setting fire to the ground below. Throngus had not been moved back a step. Slightly annoyed, Karsh continued to bash Throngus, but he was unable to hurt the Ettin in any way. Karsh was almost bored with hitting the shield when the first arrow struck him in the back, a searing pain felt through the warmth of his armor. The fatal flaw! He was vulnerable when he was so able to destroy! “NO! Not like this!” Karsh begged as faceless arches began loading dozens of flaming arrows into him. Throngus remained behind his shield, Karsh became more vulnerable by the second, and the waves of stinging arrows began taking their toll. Karsh fell to his knees, a look of deathly shock on his face, though a small look of triumph crossed his face before he fell deep into the lava.
“We number in the millions! Your efforts are wasted…” Karsh muttered as the lava flowed over him, concealing the final fate of the drakonid. The archers dispatched to find Throngus walked up to the Ettin, who still had his shield up, his eyes clenched tight. One archer mustered the courage to poke Throngus, that archer jumping back ten feet when Throngus’ eye flew open.
He looked around at the vaguely familiar archers, saying, “Dragon-thing! Throngus fight dragon-thing!” One of the archers informed Throngus of what had transpired. “Throngus win!” one head said.
“It would seem,” the other head said in Throngus’ manliest voice, “that dragon-thing no can stand heat!”
“YEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!” The archers yelled in agreement.
Omegan01 Apr 18th 2011 9:24AM
Voted up so hard.
Argus Firecrotch Apr 18th 2011 9:32AM
Throngus definitely,
He pics up his mace, impales Karsh..... Dragon kabab anyone?
hold him there long enough for his debuff to stack then just smack him a few times with his super powered mace.
Home in time for Tacos
ironshield Apr 18th 2011 9:48AM
When it comes down to it Karsh's strengths and weaknesses are triggered by most of Throngus' abilities, let's face it he's not to tidy with leaving lava lying around. So the fight would be very balanced from an abilities stand point so it comes down to strategy, and you have to admit, Throngus isn't exactly the brains of Grim Batol.
othragon Apr 18th 2011 9:47AM
"ENJOY THE FALL!"
Dimmak Apr 18th 2011 9:48AM
Daedilus here reporting live from the 'Pit'.
Tonights match pits the Latino Lizard Heat of Karsh Steelbender against the Forgemaster Throngus. But does the Steelbender have what it takes to bend the Finger?
Odds on favorite tonight is the Finger, who has spent his every waking out training with every weapon he can get his hands on. Rumor says he's actually going to bring the forge itself. But does his craftsmanship have the ability to overcome the inferno rage?
We all know what happen the last time the Hotfoot Quartet, the masked Mages of Magdar's Lair, faired against Karsh. Despite their superheated sauna attack all they did was limber up that Latino Lizard.
Folks this will be one exciting match. I might be the fool, but I am betting on the underdog. My money's on Throngus!
DeathPaladin Apr 18th 2011 9:50AM
The winner is a spectator that is wearing a ton of fire resist gear.
North Apr 18th 2011 9:58AM
Hey, has there ever been any discussion on doing this series with various raid bosses?
Heroic bosses are coll and all but I feel some classic raid bosses are more steeped in lore and would have some of the most interesting fights.
Culhag Apr 18th 2011 11:51AM
The first tournament of Two Bosses Enter pitted various bosses from vanilla and BC against each other, iirc.
Marzim Apr 18th 2011 10:03AM
This was a though one.
I went for Karsh Steelbender, he has the harden quicksilver or what it's called it should have time to drop off before Throngus is done with his shield.
MattKrotzer Apr 18th 2011 10:32AM
You probably shouldn't just figure one mechanic into the fight to make your determination. Size, story and style should also play a factor.
(Honestly, as hard as Throngus hits, he could probably turn Karsh to pulp without even worrying about the armor mechanic.)
Rai Apr 18th 2011 10:45AM
The Drakonid donned his mighty armour and let out a yawn, picking up his polearm as he made his way over to the furnace. He poked it for a bit, muttering about the early morning and yelled something incomprehensible at a fire elemental. It looked at him with concern (as much concern as an elemental can express at least) before turning and wandering out of the room. There was a knocking noise. Karsh Steelbender turned to witness several fire elementals pulling a crate into the room, a large Drakonid pushing from behind. It nodded at Karsh before disappearing back into the depths. The knocking was coming from inside the crate. He barely had time to blink before a giant mace came smashing through the side of the crate, and a lumbering ettin grunted as he emerged.
"What trickery is this?" Karsh roared, holding his polearm defensively. The ettin tilted his heads and shrugged.
"Throngus demand week off, work too hard. Master send me here. Says excess rage bad for work".
Karsh stood there, dumbstruck by the manner of the creature in front of him. Throngus raised his mace.
"Now you die, make nice hat!" Throngus grinned.
"INSOLENT CRETIN!" Karsh yelled, turning and walking back towards the furnace.
"Ettin!"
"ARGH!"
Throngus let out a battlecry, charging weaponless at the Drakonid. Karsh smirked as the Ettin tried to stomp on him, doing no damage whatsoever. He swung back at Throngus, drawing blood and beginning to lay the smackdown. Throngus continued his assault, although slightly confused as to why Karsh was immune to damage.
"You stupid creature. This armour is made with an Obsidian alloy! I'm untouchable!" he taunted.
"We see if you 'untouchable'" Throngus chuckled, drawing his two large swords and striking back, both combatants engaged in a fiery duel. Throngus began to push Karsh back with his gigantic physique, although the Drakonid showed no signs of taking damage. "Why...you....not...DIE?!" the ettin screamed, taking a massive inaccurate swing at Karsh, who stepped to one side.
"I'm invincible!" Karsh cackled, as Throngus continued to push him. Unlike the swords, his weapon was actually hurting the ettin.
"Mmm...warm!"
Karsh looked over his shoulder as Throngus pushed him under the furnace. The falling magma coated his armour and it began to hiss, heating up and becoming soft. Throngus hit it and Karsh yelled, at which point even the questionably-intelligent ettin worked out his weakness.
"You no like heat. You stay there!" Throngus nodded, pulling his shield out. He let out a whistle and from the dark alcoves above, there were shadows.
"You...coward." Karsh taunted, as several of Throngus's archers began to pelt flaming arrows at him. He grunted in pain as the armour became hotter and hotter, Throngus holding still and stomping to keep him under the furnace.
"Not coward. Throngus smart! Smartest ettin Forgemaster in all of Grim Batol! Well...only Forgemaster in Grim Batol. Me hungry."
Lost in his own thoughts and holding the Drakonid down, Karsh struggled. Throngus was unaware of the pools of lava and the rise in temperature.
"You...are the biggest impurity..."
"Thank you!" Throngus said happily.
"...but you can't handle the heat!" Karsh yelled as Throngus pulled out his mace and used the opportunity to escape from the furnace.
"You all melty. Is it Throngus or is it hot in here?" the ettin asked, mopping his brow with his free hand and smashing Karsh backwards with the mace. Karsh was knocked to the floor, heavily breathing. Throngus stood above him.
"Don't you know...the number one rule of being a Forgemaster?" Karsh coughed.
The stacks of heated armour disappeared and the furnace exploded with heat, searing Throngus and instantly killing him with flame. He said nothing as he was burned to a crisp, falling backwards and landing in the furnace. The archers hung their heads and disappeared. Karsh pulled himself to his feet and walked over to the corpse of Frogemaster Throngus, kneeling down besides him.
"Don't stand in the fire".
Brixus Apr 18th 2011 12:30PM
I wish this was posted earlier as I think these comments have a huge impact on peoples voting.
As a tank who started doing heroics a week after the shattering, Karsh was by far the most difficult boss I had faced. I honestly dont think Throngus could outdamage Karsh's armor and withstand the aoe damage inflicted when you superheat his armor. Considering both fight mechanics I would favor Karsh. I don't think Throngus could really be agile enough to drag Karsh through the lava pillar without taking massive damage himself.
As a pro tank now, both fights provide little worry now, but I think Throngus would have to worry about Karsh.
GhostWhoWalks Apr 18th 2011 1:23PM
At first, I thought this would be a difficult matchup to call. Throngus can deal heavy damage, but Karsh can withstand it well. The only way to lower Karsh's defenses is to have him stand in the fire...but doing so either kills you fast with the stacking damage buff and the fire pulse, or kills you slowly by summoning all those fire elementals dropping lava pools everywhere as soon as the superheated armor wears off. But then I remembered two things:
"Assume that each opponent is intelligent and capable of strategic thinking."
"Personal Phalanx: decreases damage taken from the front by 99%."
So here's what I'm thinking now: Throngus and Karsh both step into Karsh's forge, then Throngus raises his Phalanx. Try as he might, Karsh can't circle around Throngus faster than the ettin can turn to match him, and Karsh's Superheated stacks climb higher and higher. Throngus can happily ignore all of the massive damage now pouring out of Karsh's burning frame because no matter how high the numbers climb, he's only taking 1% of it. Karsh steps out of the fire to let the stacks drop off, but by now he's packing atleast a dozen Superheated stacks, and as soon as Karsh is clear, Throngus zooms out and hits him with an Impaling Slam. Boom, one-shot.
Something people might not realize is that, by the time Karsh is up to 7 or 8 stacks, his health starts dropping FAST. Throngus, in general, hits HARD. When those two collide, it's a perfect storm of pain.
Saf Apr 18th 2011 1:45PM
While that strategy might seem to work as you describe, you forget that when his Shield is up, Throngus only turns to face his target every 10-15 seconds, not constantly. Knowing that, and assuming Karsh is smart and realizes Throngus won't move so long as the Shield is blocking his attacks, Karsh simply has to run out of the lava flow, get some distance from Throngus, and wait for the superheated armour to fall off, thereby resetting the stacks and summoning some elementals to aid him.
Others seem to be taking the stance that superheated armour + Throngus mace = win, but Karsh is smarter than Throngus. Not to mention that Throngus' defensive move renders him unable to move or attack (aside from the archers), while Karsh's defense is a passive ability that hurts Throngus as soon, as it's removed. In other words, Throngus has to put his life on the line to remove Karsh's defense, while Karsh simply has to wait out Throngus' Shield.
MattKrotzer Apr 18th 2011 5:36PM
You're both too tied to mechanics, IMO, though I think Ghost's application to the story of the battle seems a bit less "rules Nazi," to use a D&D term. ;)
GhostWhoWalks Apr 19th 2011 1:33AM
I prefer to judge matchups based more on mechanics than lore, a "what would happen if they were pit against each other in the game" line of thinking. That's the only reliable way I see of actually determining the proper winner, since if you tie your decision too much onto lore and forget the mechanics...well, then you're just making stuff up. I've seen way too many people in the previous TBEs try to make up stories to justify why the obvious underdog would somehow win (*coughGodfreybeatingTyrannusthatwastotalnonsensecough*) and end up having the two combatants say and do such silly and flat-out absurd things.
So yeah, doing a mechanics-based fight with some narrative thrown in just makes more sense to me.
MattKrotzer Apr 19th 2011 8:44AM
I agree, but if you're going to apply ANY story, then things like "Throngus only turns every 10-15 seconds" just seems silly. In a fight, he wouldn't be tied to a mechanic like that. There's no logical reason why he would. It's a mechanic issue. (And yes, I know that was Saf's comment, not yours.)
ScorchHellfire Apr 18th 2011 1:27PM
People keep saying that Throngus's arsenal will tear apart Karsh, but if this is on neutral ground then there is no lava pillar to heat his armor with so I doubt Throngus could heat up his armor quick enough in any other way to be able to do hardly any damage to Karsh... Maybe his dragon shield could do it but is Throngus smart enough to think of that? And if he is, who is to say he wouldn't just sit there and blast Karsh with it causing the fire aoe to do much more damage to himself?
Seems to me that this is a no brainer in favor of Karsh...